I am at my wits end....I have a dog that I really want to keep but he is getting all the other dogs going with him and I am afraid that the neighbors will not put up with this. What are your experiences with debarking as a LAST resort? I have tried bark collars and the sonic silencer .......nothing seems to work. Would you debark a dog as a last resort or let him go someplace else????

We have debarked the ones that refuse to knock it off. I find it more humane than treating the hotspots that the bark collar cause and yelling at them all the time. Same reason, for the neighbors sanity. Also realize they are not silent, just cut into about half as loud and scar tissue will grow back and they will increase intensity with age. I would not debark again, we have found that you tend to be very prone to run into chocking issues then when the dog is eating/drinking.

I've never had my bark collar fail to train the dog not to bark in inappropriate situations. A fresh battery and a tight fitting collar are very important, and I don't leave it on longer than overnight (that's for a dog that barks at the crack of dawn). I just put it on if they fail to respond to verbal correction. I've never had a hot spot.

I would not debark a dog...Does he get plenty of exercise? Some dogs bark out of boredom. Maybe have him spend a little more time indoors as long as he gets exercised a couple of times daily. Just a thought...Good luck!

A dog that barks is not having his needs met . He needs more free time out of a kennel situation, mental stimulation toys as well. Buster Cube is a good one. Crate him in the house at night, enter him in a class , any kind of a class ! If you don't have time to meet this dogs needs , then find him someone that does. His barking is not intended to annoy anyone , it is a symptom of another problem in his life. Deal with the real problem !

My father acquired a 13 month old female that had already been debarked.

She still barks, but it's a rough sound-raspy , and terrible to listen to. even her breathing is "heavier" sounding. Sounds like a person trying to yell with laryngitis(sp?).

It sounds cruel and appears cruel. she appears to try to bark MORE to try to communicate but she can't get the message across.

I think there are better ways to correct the behaviour if you get a bit creative!

When i was young, my father had a hose set up at the kennel that would spritz water. not full blast. every time the dogs got into a barking mode, he would turn the water on from inside. They never saw it coming and it quickly curbed that habit.

A friend who was into showing her 3 collies and lived in Seattle had to resort to debarking her dogs. She worked during the day so they had to stay in their kennel runs during the day. The neighbors were complaining. She tried the bark collars and they were chewing and destroying the collars off one another.

Her neighbors stopped complaining and everyone was much happier.

From what I gather, not all vets know how to correctly snip those vocal chords. There is the right technique. We are seriously considering debarking our mini Schnauzer when he turns 1 yr old this summer. I wish we would have debarked our Dachshund years ago but she is 9 yrs old and I don't want to put her through surgery. It's not too bad when you have one yapper but when you have 2 yappers, it gets a little nerve racking to listen to. I do use bitter apple but the problem with this type of conditioning is when the cats are away the mice will play and we can't all be home 24/7 to control our dog's barking.

TIRED dogs sleep !!! IF the dogs are properly excercised, they sleep when owners are out.

Amen to tired dogs sleep - the problem might be you can't really exercise puppies without risking hurting their joints...I find the exercising their minds tires out the whole dog. Even a 10/15 minute session can help a dog or a puppy from barking. I rescued a confirmed 5 year old "barker" and I took him with me everyday...I worked him 4 times a day on basic obedience and retrieving/handling for 10 minutes (or less) and that took care of his barking. He was a terrible barker. In fact, when I had to board him - he was banned from the boarding facility until I reminded them to walk him/work him and paid them to do so...then they loved him...he was great in the kennel. He just had great drive and needed to work.
Hope this helps.
A

no, we can't all be home 24/7- i completely agree, but the behaviours can be curbed when the dog is young.
I agree, mine will bark when outside and something is antagnonizing (sp?) them- ie a chipmunk teasing them- but - a quick sharp 'quiet' stops them. neighbors have never complained about any barking, it's never been excessive enough to warrant it.

Also, when i'm not home, my dogs are in the house. even when i had 4 here with me, they were inside the house when i wasn't home. I realize some have alot more dogs than me and they are detained to outdoor kennels in the day, and some at night, but again, can curb most of the excessive barking if started early enough.

Debarking a dog is cruel. I agree, take the time and socialize, train, play and exercise your dog in the first place. If dog barking bothers you so much and you don't want to take the steps to properly raise a dog then you should get a cat instead.

I'm curious, why do you say debarking is cruel?

Me too, curious why you think it is cruel when you most likely are okay with other elective surgeries?
Say neutering? Is that cruel? No I wouldn't think so.
How about dew claws? Cruel? IMO, yes, but others do it it still.
Tail docking on other breeds? Ears? Cruel? Maybe, but it's done as routine.
So why not de bark?
Some dogs bark to hear themselves. Some bark the minute you are not paying attention to them. Some males bark when bitches are in season.
I think to avoid yelling and shocking the dog with a collar, de barking is a great alternative!
I haven't done it yet but I know others who have and it's not cruel if done properly.

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Replying to:

I'm curious, why do you say debarking is cruel?

Because tail docking is routine it's not cruel??

I agree with the training and working a dog. I am a trainer at a local kennel. We also use Lemon Juice. You have to set the dog up and correct him with the lemon juice. You want to get the correction when he is barking. Remember as long as he is barking and there is no correction he thinks its ok and what you want him to do. He is probably board or has too much energy, but after giving him a good mental work out try using the Lemon Juice. Take it and squirt it in the back of this throat and give him a command like "Quiet". Remember you sometimes have to invest more time with some dogs than others. But I would not debark.

People actually do this and it's accepted? That's hard for me to wrap my brain around. I've never had a dog that made me even consider debarking. And I've had some barkers. Our dogs know the word "Quiet." And if that doesn't work, we put a bark collar on them. We don't even have to turn the collar on, just put it around their necks and our dogs shut up. The only time it should ever leave a hotspot is if it's left on too long. The longest we ever leave them on is overnight and have never had a problem. Our dogs don't bark because they're bored, they train on a 5,000 acre ranch every day. But we live in the country and everything from stray dogs to rabbits to quail run around our yard all the time. The dogs of course bark at them. If the surgery basically reverses itself after a period of time and your dog is more likely to choke as a result, why would anyone do this? Why not just train? I'm not flaming, I'm genuinely curious.

I know I have seen devices in catalogs which give a tone to correct dogs who are barking, and it works up to something like 40 feet. Sure, it would end up making a tone that would correct everyone, but sometimes that might be needed when you've got a whole troop barking their heads off because one started it. I haven't ever used one of these devices, but I have certainly thought about getting one to mount on the back of my shed to stop the cocker spaniels on the other side of the fence from their hours-long barkfests. Why not try something like that? There are also citronella bark collars. Both are reasonably priced.

"Some dogs bark to hear themselves. Some bark the minute you are not paying attention to them. Some males bark when bitches are in season. "

and some bark to communicate- let's take your voice away and see how frustrating it may be for you?? (saying this in a nice tone btw)

I believe it is cruel to a point. i don't think it physically hurts them, but it takes away one form of communication for them.

JMO, why do YOU believe dew claw removal is cruel?

Yelling and shocking a dog is a correction for training and using surgury as a " great alternative" doesn't sit well with me. If the dog cannot be trained then maybe it shouldn't be bred.

How cruel, not everyone is a breeder on here and debarking my little terrier is a viable option that I really believe is the solution for us. I don't breed mini schnauzers or dachschunds. These 2 dogs are our beloved family pets. Perhaps I should not address the barking issue be debarking and just let my neighbors complain until animal control comes out and confinscates my little boy. NOw that would make sense to me.

Your opinion is your opinion but please don't try and make people feel incompetent as dog owners and breeders just because we don't share your views on what justifies animal cruelty. I think we have enough to deal with in PETA terrorizing our love of our pets and hobby , we don't need any more extremist coming on here demeaning us for surgery choices and other so called unethical training techniques.

For what it is worth, I have found "obnoxious for no apparent reason" barking to run in family lines while others are a pleasure to live with.

I have also found "peer influence" to be a very big influence on a dog's "bark-i-ness". I was lucky enough to have a fairly quiet 1st lab. He was the alpha, but ruled with quiet dominance. It almost seemed that he taught the others that we don't bark needlessly around here! If they are outside and decide they're ready to come back in, the old man will bark once and wait for you to come open the door. They don't even bark when someone knocks on the door or rings the doorbell....unless that person makes them uncomfortable. They will sometime bark or talk a little when they're playing or super excited, but that is easily quieted with a "hush" from me.

That said, the flip side to our quiet house is that if someone suddenly starts barking loudly in the middle of the night, it scares me to death! Especially when I get out of bed and find the "barker" staring out the window.....what is out there?? YIKES!

Not trying to start a fight with anyone, however, years before I was married and before I had kids I had a very sweet, obedient, little, cocker spaniel bitch trained through utility. I used to watch people's kids and say "Geez, my dog behaves better than that kid! When I have kids if they ever act like that, why I'll....." Somehow I thought having trained one dog through utility, I could conquer training anything.

THEN I HAD KIDS! My dogs still act better than my kids somedays! LOL

I never say never. It is my belief that debarking is a viable option for some dogs in some situations. If you have tried several barking interventions and nothing seems to work then who knows? You may end up doing it. We chose to with my mother's pomeranian. Do your homework and make the best choice for you, your dog and the situation.

FWIW
Bibsmom - Valerie

Oh, and when I wrote "wrap your brains around this thought" I wasn't trying to be rude - just trying to bring a smile to everyone whose ever had their kid act worse than their dog! Lord knows I have!
Smiles - Valerie

Hmmm, dew claw removal isn't surgery? And you think it's not cruel? Maybe you should look into it further. Many breeders are opting not to remove them anymore FYI.
I would think removing your thumbs would be cruel and unusual. Would make it pretty darn hard for you to type too

Point is, it's cosmetic. Pure and simple. And uncalled for IMO.

And sorry, I prefer not to yell at and shock my dogs. You?

And who mentioned anything about breeding the barking offenders? No one. Another assumption on your part.

But since you brought it up, I never thought a barker was not worthy of being bred, just because it's a barker! Ha!

BTW, I don't have any barkers, or any de barked dogs just FYI. All I said was it would be something I'd consider if needed. And not in place of training, but as a last resort.

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Replying to:

JMO, why do YOU believe dew claw removal is cruel?

Yelling and shocking a dog is a correction for training and using surgury as a " great alternative" doesn't sit well with me. If the dog cannot be trained then maybe it shouldn't be bred.

So true about our dogs sometimes behaving better than our human kids,,,particuarly when they become teenagers. Now there is an interesting thought,.it it considered cruel and unjust to debark all argumenative teenagers ? I'm going to check into that one

Not sure, but have often thought of using a prong collar on my teenager!

Never say never....

Several years ago I purchased a gorgeous black boy from a big name kennel (how lucky could I be!?!?) and brought him home to my brand new house with one acre exercise yard. The moment Damien, not his real name, stepped foot on my property he started barking. He barked all day and all nite. He barked while he ate. He barked while he slept. He barked while he played. He barked while I worked with him. He barked at the girls. He barked at birds. He barked at squirrels. He barked at ants. He barked at sticks. In short, he barked nonstop.

I tried exercising Damien. I tried wearing him out. I tried playing with him. I tried training him. I tried begging him. I tried pleading with him. And, once, in the middle of the night (exhausted both physically and mentally) I must admit I tried beating him. In short, he still barked nonstop.

He barked while we built the new deck on the back of the house. He barked while we sat on the deck. I tried to bring him onto the deck for a moment of quiet pleasure, but he stood and looked at me and barked. We stopped going out on the deck.

After three months I called Damien's breeder, desperate for advice. She told me to do what she did. Have him debarked and tranquilize him before puppy buyers arrived. I think I started to cry at this point. In the background I heard his barking.
Finally my husband told me that if I did not place him he would shoot him. (The thought went through my head that perhaps that was a good idea.)

I finally did place the dog with another breeder friend who swore she could break him of his barking. At this point I added up my financial losses, cried a bit more....then began to dance with glee. The house was silent! The yard was silent! The girls were asleep in the dog yard, exhausted themselves. I sat on my deck that nite nursing a martini, hoping for the best for my friend....but determined not to answer my cell phone if her number showed up!

In short, Damien was a gorgeous dog with a beautiful pedigree full of barkers. He responded to nothing. He was never exhausted. He never slept. (I once looked for a three digit numerical tattoo on his body, but did not find one.) He never stopped barking. His agenda was to drive one mad...

And so, I say, never say never. Would I, with his breeder's good graces, have him debarked? No. Why? Because I could not, in good conscience ever breed him for fear of what he may produce. And yet, I could not fault a person who chose to do so in this situation. The moral of my story? Simple...there are dogs out there, IMHO, who are intractable barkers. For those who have never met one, consider yourself lucky. For those who have....God help us all!

Footnote: My breeder friend and I ceased to be friends after Damien went to live with her. Maybe she found his numerical tattoo...

why remove anything that GOD put their for them, We talk about the breed standard, and look at all of this chat about approval of removing vocal cords to stop the neighbor from complaining. How about getting off your butts and pay attention to your dogs, Youll see they will stop BARKING.Can you imagine if we had to debark humans everytime they annoyed other people,LOL

Georgia,
Do you remove dew claws?

Georgia, your comment "How about getting off your butts and pay attention to your dogs, Youll see they will stop BARKING." is rude and narrow minded.

I suppose if all of us lazy mothers got off our Butts long enough to raise our kids, they would never argue with us..they would be the perfect little angles we had alwasy envisioned. Now that is funny

Comment is totally exceptable your spin not mine, however, the question would stand "would you debark a human/dog for being vocal? I know it is a very debatable subject if you want to just vent or have something to say, but honestly most people on this forum "the animal lover, would never think of cutting a dog or human for that matter voacal cords for the reason mentioned in this forum. The dog owner in the first post was concerns to keep /dog/him quiet.......... so he didnt disturb neighbors and get the owner in trouble.
Sometime the truth hurts.This is a very sticky subject. I do not think declawing is the exceptable either. I also love a very dry Martini too!

IMO there are two sides to the coin.

As breeders, it comes down to a fine line--should a dog that won't shut up for the life of him be bred? I don't think you can say that lack of attention or boredom is a distinct cause of barking. Yes--most dogs bark less in the house. But is it because the dog is "happy" or "mentally stimulated" or just because there's less stuff to bark at? I mean bikers don't regularly go through my living room, nor do cars with crappy mufflers. That's a question that breeders have to consider--is this dog just barking because that's what he does, despite my best efforts? And if so, is that the kind of dog I want reproducing? It's a gray area, what is acceptable to me is certainly not going to be acceptable to a pet owner living in a condo. Collie & Sheltie breeders very regularly just debark all their dogs. They bark because it's what they do. Debarking is far more humane than trying to teach them to stop. And good luck finding a line of quiet ones, though I'm sure there are a few. It's like trying to teach a (good) Lab not to want to fetch. And then there's the consideration of having raised a Lab pup with a breed like a collie--is his big mouth due to genetics, or is it something he learned from the collie? It's all grey area, and you can't answer that with an absolute. Plus some breeders keep forever any dog they ever keep--even if something else goes wrong, like failing elbows. So in that case, the dog is really being evaluated from the pet owner's perspective (below) instead of the "breeder" perspective.

From the pet owner's perspective--I am all for debarking IF the pet owner's only other option (whether mentally or physically) is to rehome or euthanize the dog. Pet owners don't do well at rehoming dogs. A barker is going to end up euthanized or beaten. It comes down to the lesser of two evils. IMO, the lesser of two evils is debarking. Rehoming a dog because it has a problem that can be COMPLETELY CORRECTED with a simple surgery is stupid. That's like rehoming a bitch because she bleeds when she's in season.

That is hillarious, I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes as I too had a "Damien"!! Nothing...and I mean NOTHING!! would shut that dog up. Exercize? ha.. he barked the ENTIRE TIME he was "exercising"! He barked, and I kid you not, with a duck in his mouth, in the water, swimming to shore!! He did stop for 1 thing and 1 thing only, while he was pooping?? BUT he would walk a mile while doing it. Poop from one end of the property to the other, I must admit the laxitive may have had something to do with it...had to shut him up somehow. I say DEBARK!!

WELL SAID.

666?

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Replying to:

Never say never....

Several years ago I purchased a gorgeous black boy from a big name kennel (how lucky could I be!?!?) and brought him home to my brand new house with one acre exercise yard. The moment Damien, not his real name, stepped foot on my property he started barking. He barked all day and all nite. He barked while he ate. He barked while he slept. He barked while he played. He barked while I worked with him. He barked at the girls. He barked at birds. He barked at squirrels. He barked at ants. He barked at sticks. In short, he barked nonstop.

I tried exercising Damien. I tried wearing him out. I tried playing with him. I tried training him. I tried begging him. I tried pleading with him. And, once, in the middle of the night (exhausted both physically and mentally) I must admit I tried beating him. In short, he still barked nonstop.

He barked while we built the new deck on the back of the house. He barked while we sat on the deck. I tried to bring him onto the deck for a moment of quiet pleasure, but he stood and looked at me and barked. We stopped going out on the deck.

After three months I called Damien's breeder, desperate for advice. She told me to do what she did. Have him debarked and tranquilize him before puppy buyers arrived. I think I started to cry at this point. In the background I heard his barking.
Finally my husband told me that if I did not place him he would shoot him. (The thought went through my head that perhaps that was a good idea.)

I finally did place the dog with another breeder friend who swore she could break him of his barking. At this point I added up my financial losses, cried a bit more....then began to dance with glee. The house was silent! The yard was silent! The girls were asleep in the dog yard, exhausted themselves. I sat on my deck that nite nursing a martini, hoping for the best for my friend....but determined not to answer my cell phone if her number showed up!

In short, Damien was a gorgeous dog with a beautiful pedigree full of barkers. He responded to nothing. He was never exhausted. He never slept. (I once looked for a three digit numerical tattoo on his body, but did not find one.) He never stopped barking. His agenda was to drive one mad...

And so, I say, never say never. Would I, with his breeder's good graces, have him debarked? No. Why? Because I could not, in good conscience ever breed him for fear of what he may produce. And yet, I could not fault a person who chose to do so in this situation. The moral of my story? Simple...there are dogs out there, IMHO, who are intractable barkers. For those who have never met one, consider yourself lucky. For those who have....God help us all!

Footnote: My breeder friend and I ceased to be friends after Damien went to live with her. Maybe she found his numerical tattoo...

I agree - dogs don't always bark just because they want or need something. Even if they did, one thing we ALL teach our dogs is patience. We train patience when we do house training and crate training. When we do long sits and downs. When we train the honor for hunt tests and field trials. And when we teach a dog that there is a time to be heard, and a time to be silent.

Piper , Nancy et al-
I agree. We train patience, focus and honoring. Or we should. And if we don't, or can't, perhaps as in the case of Pipers dog Damien there is something wrong with the wiring in the dogs head? If the trainer has tried everything training wise then there might be something misfiring brain-wise in the dog? It would be so interesting to find that out. I have seen one of these and they are impossible to reach. The dog wasn't mine, but it never and I mean NEVER shut up. It looked exhausted but seemed to not be in control of its own wiring somehow...hard to explain.
A

666! Did your "Damien" have one too?!?!

Must admit I LOL while I read your post...especially when I figured out the laxative line!

"The dog wasn't mine, but it never and I mean NEVER shut up. It looked exhausted but seemed to not be in control of its own wiring somehow...hard to explain."

no disrespect intended, but something to ponder on this statement.
.. do you think a dog like Piper's Damien would just stop the behaviour of barking if surgically debarked?
me thinks the dog will still try to bark, just the owner won't hear it. Still an exhausting behaviour for the dog whether any sound comes out or not.

So my opinion, the dog will continue to run thru the action of barking even though it will be 'silent'to the ears of the owners and the neighbors.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the surgery doesn't always work. If the dog continues to bark post-surgery, their bark can come back. And the surgery doesn't change the behavior that is causing the barking. It merely mutes the volume level. The dog will continue to bark and if he keeps at it, the full bark can return. And sometimes scar tissue can build up and actually make the bark louder than it was before.

I do believe he had the mark of the beast too! The duck he carried, was, of course, a decoy. Imagine HIM letting a duck get within a mile of a duck blind.

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Replying to:

666! Did your "Damien" have one too?!?!

Must admit I LOL while I read your post...especially when I figured out the laxative line!

By the way, my neighbor said he "barked himself to death"...I didn't ask any questions.

That's the point Tina..If the dog is going to bark no matter what an owner tries to do to solve the behavior, then one can at least debark the dog so the neighbors and the dog's owner won't be subjected to the noise. Euthenize or Debark...doesn't seem like a hard choice to make if down to these 2 options.

So what is being said is the DOGS That barks continuely is suffer mental issues. So why not try anti depressants? They work great for other problem with dogs. A dog bark that has been debarked is more annoying then a reg barking dog.The mental issue where not helped or corrected, just turned off by surgery,Trying to fix a problem that has been existing from the begining will not get fixed over nite.I train other people puppies that are around 14 weeks old. You would be surprised what a pet owner can do with a dog with the negative issue. On going problems just snow ball. Im sure the dog had other problems as well. Barking is one of them, Most of these pups are left in their crates for lengthy periods of time. This usally get the barking going.

Trust me...I tried EVERYTHING...I sedated the dog...ever hear a drunk dog bark!?!? To tell you the truth a dog that barks like that is miserable and everyone around it is miserable. 14 weeks is one thing, 3 years in another. In a perfect world there are no problem barkers but in the real world there are and some JUST WON'T QUIT!!

Things are never black and white. All my dogs are different and have different barking triggers. Thankfully they are supervised most of the time and are not allowed to bark their heads off.

However, a co-worker who is a single mom and has to leave her dog in the yard while she works has a herding breed. The neighbor shot him because of his barking. In this case, I think de-barking was the answer.

I had a friend down the street whose shepherd/Lab mix barked and barked when she was gone from home. The neighbor behind them got tired of the barking dog and threw a piece of poisoned meat over the fence. Their dog was dead by the time it arrived at the emergency clinic.

Barking dogs makes neighbors do crazy, drastic and cruel measures just to get some peace in their lives. It's difficult to fathom that someone would actually poison a dog for barking but it happens more than we are made aware of.

I don't let our little boy go out and bark his head off but he does need to go outside a few times a day to get fresh air and release some pent up energy. We also take him for walks when weather permits but he still loves his bark fests. Small breed dogs are known to be barkers and it's no surprise that so many owners opt for debarking when all else fails. We love our dogs and only want a solution to keep the peace.

And to Georgia who suggested anti depressants, sounds like a sensible idea you would think. My vet put my older yellow girl on anti depressants for her obsessive compulsive chewing her foot into a bloody mess. After a couple months on anti depressants, the only thing that was accomplished was that our girl gained 8 pounds. I took her off of them and she eventually got herself squared away and now only chews if her allergies are kicking in but then prednisone solves that problem

Thank goodness all my Labrador girls are fairly quiet and they all come from the same bitch lines !! They will bark when someone walks by walking their dogs but it is short lived. In our county, according to the rules, a dog is allowed to bark no more than 30 minutes at a time before it is considered an offense.

People who let their dogs sleep outside and allow them to bark all night long should be held accountable. Why can't families let their dog in the house at night...put them in a comfy dog crate if need be. At least the neighbors can get some sleep. I swear, some people who let their dogs bark all night long become immune to the noise so it doesn't bother them but to assume everyone else around them should get accustomed to the rukus is inconsiderate.

I have a neighbor, not too close, but he hunts coon dogs...now that's a barking breed if left unchecked. He must have just gotten a new one as it does that continual aarr....aarr....aarr....aarr...aarr....aarr...aarr...aarr...aarr...get the picture, just about every 3 seconds he lets out a single bay. Luckily he's far enough away that I can turn my fan on and it drowns it out...my other poor neighers. You can't debark a coon hound and P.U. to in the house, hopefully he'll get him a no bark collar soon. I wanted to sneak over there and go aarr...aarr..aarr...aarr...aarr.. to the dog as he ONLY barks at night and sleeps all day.

I guess i just don't see how it gets to the point of only those choices Joy- debark or pts.

acquiring an older dog that is already barking, i can see the difficulties of re-training acceptable behaviours, but raising from puppy to that barking their head off stage just baffles me! how did it get to that point i would have to wonder.

debarking certainly doesn't benefit the dog. it is solely for peace and quiet and that is what i was responding to- seeing the exhaustion on the dog during a barking frenzy would still result in the same exhaustion in a dog if the noise was silenced to the human ears.
I didn't run out and get my 5 year old's dewies removed because every time he walked past me, he seemed to slice my leg open with them. Maybe a bit from one extreme to another- i know, but i like to think we are responsible for our dog's behaviours and actions as the owner of them. My dogs bark outside, they come in, no worse for wear on my neighbors no matter how close or far they are to my house. I wouldn't ever allow it to get to the point of a dog becoming a nuisance in a neighborhood!

just another two cents worth tonight from me. again, no disrespect intended, just venting on the subject.

Thanks a lot. I just inhaled coffee into both nostrils.
Please put a warning label on future posts!