Those of you who penn hip the puppies you keep at a young age, do you redo the xrays at a certain age? OFA or another penn hip? Or do you go simply on the ratings you recieve on them as pups? Just curious.

I've done PennHip, then have been stymied on how to use the rating. There's not yet a database that tells you how PennHip ratings relate to hip conformation in the next generation or any relative for that matter. PennHip only tells you the likelihood that the specific dog tested might develop hip dysplasia. Interesting information, but not helpful to my breeding decisions.

I'll keep doing OFAs until there's some statistical info on the heritability of PennHip ratings. For OFAs, prelims sometimes, finals after age 2 for anything I breed.

I do both at a young age and repeated at 2 and after

I have found that at a younger age the results are not as good as a 2-3 yr. old.

During heat cycles, after a lazy winter, after an active summer, doesnt' seem to be a factor! (no flames) these are the results of MY doggies

If the PennHIP scores are really good between 16 and 20 weeks, I don't bother with OFA. If the scores fall in the grey area, I will do OFA at 2 years of age.

I do Penn Hip along with OFA anywhere from 8-14 months and as long as the dogs pass both I do not do again.

The idea behind Pennhip is that the hips do not change as the dog gets older. If your dog has loose hips at a young age, than the dog will have loose hips throughout its life. I like it because there are 3 xrays instead of 1 and the Vet has to be trained to do this type of xray.And the xrays must be sent in whether or not your dogs hips look good or not.It does have more info than an OFA as far as each hips rating are shown and where your dog falls within its own breed. And its a scientific measurement.
I do my pups at 1 year or older and I do not rexray.

I have wondered about this my self. What type of results would a person be looking for from Penn Hip, for breeding intentions?

Pennhip has a median distraction index measurment for each breed. I breed my dogs only if they fall near this or tighter.The median DI for Labs is 0.48.As the number gets highe the tighter the hips.

The lower the DI - the better. It is the percentile number that is the one where the higher the number , the better. That is the one where their DI is compared to all of the prior submitted tests and tells you how close they are to being the tightest - so, if you are in the 90th percentile, then the hips are tighter than 90 % of all the dogs that were submitted.

I would never penn hip. I do not like how they position the poor dogs for the xrays.

Sorry the way I put it was confusing.The lower the DI means tighter. Which in turn gives you a higher percentage when they compare your dog to other dogs on the Laxity profile ranking.In order to understand it I guess you would have to see an evaluation report.

PennHip is the most unused tool that we have as breeders. It can tell us whether the dog is prone to developing hip dysplasia later on in life. OFA can only tell you if it's there or not--nothing about the future. Bottom line is, if we bred dogs with better and better PennHip scores, our dogs hips would get tighter and tighter with each generation with less and less hip dysplasia. As far as positioning, there is no more stress on the hips than the OFA view...

I'm puzzled that Penn Hip isn't used more. Why use a method that doesn't predict a problem when we HAVE a method available that does. If HD is caused by laxity (which we KNOW it is) and Penn Hip is the method that measures that (as opposed to one that doesn't),I can't see how it makes any sense NOT to use it. My Vet's opinion is exactly the same as Dr. Kathy's. The percentage of dogs with HD is still WAY too high!

The whole problem with PennHip and breeding is that there is NO available data to tell us whether hip laxity is heritable. For all we know, it could be strictly environmental. A lot of HD is environmental. Is laxity an environmental factor, a genetic factor, or a combination? We as breeders have no idea.

It's very true that it is probably the best tool to predict whether Dog A will develop HD.

But it tells you nothing about whether Dog A will produce tight hips in his progeny. My anecdotal experience shows a surprisingly wide range in PennHip scores in a family of dogs.

In order to use the PennHip information in a breeding program, we need to be able to do an analysis of pedigrees. OFA, though not as good of a predictor of HD in Dog A, has vertical pedigrees and statistical analysis so that we can make some educated decision making. This makes it a better tool for breeding decisions. It certainly is not perfect, but it is useful information.

From what I hear, we will be able to do pedigree analysis using PennHip scores. I can't wait. I hope it's a more accurate predictor than the OFA database.

I have found Penn Hip scores to be very much the same.
Bitch A -90th percentile
When bred to an OFA Excellent dog
Produced 2 bitches(B&C) both greater than the 90th percentile.
Produced 2 dogs at the 90th percentile. Three scored OFA Excellent. One of the males who was slightly overweight scored OFA Good.

Bitch B's first litter by OFA Excellent sire just turned 2. One of the girls is scheduled for OFA/Penn hip next month. I'll let you know how it turns out.


The problem I see is that a friend who also does OFA and Penn Hip had 3 dogs all OFA Good. They ranked in the 90th percentile, 70th percentile and the 30th percentile. He did not use the bitch in the 30th percentile in his breeding program.

My bitch, who is OFA good, 8 1/2 years old and recently had her hips x-rayed for other reasons and the vet and I agreed they looked like they could pass for excellent, was in the 60th percentile. One of her sons was given a score of 100th percentile (I thought it only went to 99, but apparently not.)

But your experience and my experience are simply anecdotal. Useless from a scientific/breeding perspective. We need to be able to see combined data, vertical pedigrees, and a statistical analysis of the heritability of hip laxity. Without that, we are just guessing. It's like the lady I ran into at the vet who told me that all chocolate Labs are hyper. She knows that because her brother had a chocolate Lab and it was hyper. But her sister had a yellow and it wasn't. That's anecdotal. Doesn't mean it's wrong or right. It just isn't scientifically valid.

(I thought it only went to 99, but apparently not.)

Did the paper work say 100th %ile or did it merely show it on the bar graph in the 100 position. I have 2 who Penn Hip says are "greater than the 90th %ile", but the position on the graph is where 100 would be.

What were the dog's DIs?

Issues with PennHip:
1. No sibling/pedigree data for breeding decisions
2. No peer reviewed data on their grading scheme
3. No published data showing using lower DI's improves future generations
4. No insturment to ensure the same pressure is placed on the joints when taking the laxity measurement. You can not get me to believe that a 300 lb man puts the exact same pressure on the hips that a 120 lb female is able to do.
5. No published data proving testing does not do damage to the hips.

Would I LOVE to utilize a system that allowed me to grade hips YOUNGER with less objectivity. YOU BETCHA! But I also want to know the $ I am investing is on sound medical science.

Published and peer reviewed data tries to keep money hungry companies on the straight and narrow.

Sherri - I didn't see the actual paperwork - he's co-owned by Sue Raynis and lives with her. She was surprised to see the "100" also, and knowing Sue (she's a college professor) I never thought to question what she saw.

"But it tells you nothing about whether Dog A will produce tight hips in his progeny"
The only way I know of to tell if dog A will produce progeny with tight hips is to see the results of progeny.Even if the parents have great hips there is still a chance they can produce a dysplastic pup. Granted the odds are in your favor if the parents have nice tight hips.
I cant wait until the Pennhip database is open.