This post is not asking about the good and evil of breeding on prelims. All I want to know is what is the youngest age a boy should be prelimmed before he can be used. I guess what I am asking is this: Those of you who will breed to a dog on prelims, what age do you think would be the minimal acceptable age for you?

16 months, JMO of course.

12 months

Our train of thought is 12 months is when OFA prelim results increase in margin of change as finals (from OFA website data), so we are more comfortable at that level as well. I would not breed to an outside boy before 12 month films. If it were an inside boy out of lines I have worked with for decades and KNEW what was truly behind him and had a darn good reason I may be inclined for accepting younger prelims.

What about prelims on a female. If that age is different, why so?

not too many breed their girls on prelims. less than two is young for a girl to have puppies. she is still a puppy herself. to breed a boy at 12 months is not the same as breeding a girl less than two.

If you put a little thought into this question, you may not have to ask it.

What if the female is 22 months old and will be 2 years when she gives birth?

What if the female is 22 months old and will be 2 years when she gives birth? And the prelims are from 12 months of age?

Shelquin
I know many breeders that breed their girl when she is almost 2 because of having to wait for next season . The odds are so high that they will have the same OFA score on finals, I see no harm. If my girl was mature and I had no doubts, I'd do it. I would never breed her say before 21 months of age however. JMO

Though I dont know if I would risk breeding from 12 mo old prelims Though odds are above 75% that it be the same score.

I haven't been in labradors for all that long, but I *have* been in the animal medical profession for over 16 years, and I don't think I've met a labrador yet who was *mentally* ready to carry, whelp, and raise a litter at that young of an age.

Accidents happen to the best of us (missed/silent heats and the like), but breeding a female on prelims (12-18 months) purposefully is stretching it a bit...

Sorry to ask.
What can happen to a female that gives birth at, +/- 14 months, as an example.
I don´t know anything about dogs, so don't be rude with me, treat me well, I just want to learn, I am trying to start in labrador retrievers. be gentle please.

14 months mentally in our line seems similar to a 13 year old human having babies. Yes physically they are able, but mentally they are not. I have not personally had experience with it, but I can not imagine my girls being good moms at that age. I would guess my chances of them eating/lying on/not accepting puppies would be much higher and like all good grandparents, I would end up raising the puppies

She isn't physically mature enough either. It robs calcium from her nec. for her bones to mature, DHA from her brain that is nec to mature mentally. Proteins and nutrition in general is robbed from her but if you have already bred her or she has been bred don't overload her now to try and compensate. Fortunately the Lab is a VERY HARDY breed and should re-coup well but like others stated she will most likely need help to be a good momma. Good Luck and if you haven't bred her....DON'T, be patient and wait 'till she's lod enough you'll feel so much better about the whole process and it will also give you time to study the breed and make the right choices for your program.

Do you have concerns when breeding a young dog or bitch prior to 2 yrs of age about epilepsy showing up? In Swissys there were many lines where the occasional epi dog showed up, so very hard to track. But I always felt better in waiting until 2 and doing all clearances and that I was hopefully past that window where seizures might show up. Of course we did start seeing later occuring seizures showing up in dogs that were 4 yrs old, so of course there is no magic age. I just personally felt better in waiting until 2. Plus I wanted mature brood bitches
Julia

S.Allets:
What a great explanation of why you shouldn't breed so young:)
So many think (non breeders) that a year old is just fine, its nice to be able site the biological reasons they are not ready as well as the mental ones.

I can tell you right now that for the first time I have a year old female, (my other gal was already 4 when I was lucky enough to get her)and boy oh boy is she still a pup!
All she wants to do is play and I really thinks thats all that should be asked of her:)

I have two others pups that are a couple months behind her and I can say that they all act pretty much the same....silly pups, enjoying life without a care.
Dont all our girls deserve this time if we are going to ask them to gift us with wonderful pups?

Just the 2 cents of a newbie

Typically seizures start at the 3-5 year old range in labs, although can start earlier. 2 does not out of the woods make you unfortunately.

I found this very interesting on the ofa site....the % accuracy of pre-limbs....
http://offa.org/hipprelim.html

Thank you for the answers, i don't have a bitch yet, in the near future I am getting one from Mexico.

I don't agree with breeding any bitch too young with or without prelims but sometimes things happen. Years ago my mother's 12 month old Labrador got pregnant by her fiance's yellow boy..not intentional. Mom came home from work just in time to help her girl whelp 11 puppies. She told me that her girl did all the work, including taking the sacs off the babie's face and chewing the chords off. She only had to help pull the sac off one of the babies and get the baby breathing.

From there on, this 12 month old new momma, took very good care of her babies, didn't have a whelping box, just blankets and the quiet room downstairs.

My theory is that a bitch can be a terrible whelper and mother at the age of 5 or 6 years and still lay on her babies and not seem to have a clue as to what she should do with her babies. These are the ones you have to force to stay in the room to even nurse them. Then there are the young mothers who have never whelped a litter and yet they take to it like it is the most natural occurrence on earth.

I think we underestimate mother nature in the canine world and treat out dogs too much like how a human would think and do.

As far as breeding on prelims, I like the 18 month and older prelims for hips and elbows and ideally, it would be good to see the stud dogs be a bit older than 12 months old before they are bred. If OFA sent back a stud dog's 12 month OFA report as looking Excellent on the hips and normal elbows, then I would feel more comfortable using him on one of my own girls.

I don't see anything wrong with breeding a bitch shy of her 2 yr birthday providing she has all her clearances and prelims that are Excellent to Good from OFA and normal elbows. It all depends on the bitch and how well you know your lines. Most younger bitches will settle right into raising their first litter even if they seem goofy and immature mentally. This does settle them down and another benefit is that by whelping their first litter, it helps their ribs spring out better for competing in the show ring later on.

I agree completely with Mother Nature! Well said.

Very well said Mother nature, you put it way better than I could

I find it interesting that many breeders do breed on prelims yet i have read post on other message boards where they are hammering someone for doing it. I live in an area where There are several Top Kennels and I know they do it. Just wondered why it was ok for some to breed on prelims and a crime for others.

There are many differing opinions on this as there are on other aspects of breeding. Some feel that 2-3 litters max is enough for a bitch in her lifetime and others are comfortable taking 5-6 litters before spaying their bitch. It is all a matter of personal opinion.

Many times I have noticed that those with a strong opinion against breeding on prelims are either novice breeders or pet owners who are simply repeating what they have read somewhere else. They may not have the experience or expertise to know better. The loudest voices are usually in oposition to breeding a bitch under 2 years old and I have even heard someone say that 22 months is terribly wrong. It is silly really as there is not some magic transformation that occurs on the second birthday. Every dog (just like every person) is unique and must be assessed individually.

My take on it is this - OFA prelims on hips that are good or excellent after 12 months will almost certainly pass at 2 years unless there is an injury. Fair hips are more risky and I would not breed a girl on fair prelims. 18 months is the minimum that I would consider breeding at and only if there were good reason not to wait for the next heat. (I personally prefer 20-30 months for a first litter but have bred at 18 months before with no problems whatsoever)I do not like breeding for a first litter after 36 months because I have personally had more problems with this.

Just my take - take it or leave it.

Many years ago, I was taught that you never bred a bitch until after she was 2, never had more than 2 - 3 litters in a lifetime, never breed back to back heat cycles, and never breed again after a second c-section.

Without any experience, I followed the letter of the law. That was the right thing to do given my level of experience.

Now, with much more personal experience and also since these things have been studied scientifically, I know that there is not one set of rules that covers all bithes. I also know some people will abuse their dogs given that application of knowledge can only be done on an individual basis because it therefore makes it hard to reasonably criticize them.

Having said that, it is probably better to breed most bitches at 18 months old as opposed to 7 years old. Back to back heat cycles are fine for a younger bitch who has recovered well. I'd rather breed on an OFA excellent prelim done at 18 months than a fair done at 25 months. 4 or 5 litters for a bitch who started young, whelps with no problems, recovers well, and loves being a mother is probably fine too. People also tell me that multiple c-sections is fine but I am not yet too sure on that one.