There is someone in my area who has been showing her bitch that is stuck on majors at non-major shows, shows that mathematically could never be a major, even if the dog went BOB. This person is making a point of letting everyone ringside know that the bitch is stuck on majors but that she is showing her anyway "because there is no rule against it." She is also entering her in shows that historically have never been majors and showing her. Because she is a decent bitch she has won a few times, and the points are totally wasted on this bitch and could have went to a dog that needed them. This person does not seem to care, she claims the AKC told her there is no rule against it. Yes, there is no rule, but is it not common courtesy to not show your dog who is stuck on majors at a show that could never be a major no matter what? It is so hard to get points in our breed, why take points that are useless to you, and why waste your money and time entering shows that are not going to be majors? Just to beat other people? This makes no sense to me. This person is new to the breed as well, so she is not making any friends doing this. Several people have nicely tried to explain why she should keep the bitch home, and she only gets nasty with them and says its her right to show her. Yes, you do have the right to show, but why would you want to?? It just baffles me!

It does not make sense for someone to do this. It does not help the person or the dog. And, it pisses people off. The dog you are speaking of is a decent dog, and could probably finish. I think perhaps the person is such a newbie, that she thinks it will impress people to hear her say that her dog finished with 50 points. Common courtesy would dictate that she pull the bitch when there is no shot at a major. Most exhibitors would do that. This particular exhibitor seems to be showing out of defiance, and is thumbing her nose at her fellow enthusiasts. No way to win friends.

I think it is LESS impressive to say your dog finished with 50 points, because then everyone think it must have had trouble getting those majors lol!

So true! But try telling that to this woman. She is so clueless.

Just a thought, but maybe she thinks she is nice enough to get a Group 1 if it's an All-Breed show and finish her that way. Or even go all the way to BIS.
That's the first thing I thought of when I read the post. It's a huge long shot and not worth the risk of alienating yourself in the breed. But it does pose one reason this individual may be doing it. And if she is a newbie, maybe she doesn't get how difficult it is to get a BIS with a Lab.

I know of this person and as far as I'm concerned this is totllay a UNSPORTSMANS LIKE CONDUCT ... and might even be addressed that way to her! Hopefully she reads the info on the back of ever premium list of the AKC Code Of Sportsmanship... This falls under # 2... sportmen commit themselves to values of FAIR PLAY, honesty, COURTESY, etc...

if she were concerned about the AKC rules she would not be doing this in the first place. people have spoken to her about this and she gives them attitude.
who needs that

If people don't enter when how are you ever going to get a major?

I think the real issue is that she is announcing it at ring side, so someone nicely educate her "nicely" that she is making a bad name for herself by doing this. Newbie's don't know and will only learn by someone "helping" them and letting them know.

It sounds like you are jealous because this dog is winning and you are not.

Conversely, what about the person who is showing a dog that has both it's majors and only needs single points to finish? They go on to win 3 or 4 majors to finish a dog. Why shouldn't these people have the same scruples and show at the small point shows to earn the last points instead of taking the major away from those of us that still need 1 or both majors? Have you seen how many labradors have been finishing with 3 or 4 majors and a very short show career?

I was showing a CKCS a few years ago, and it got to where he just needed a major. I did pull him from several shows, not wanting to take away the single points from others. I did go to these shows, and watched the entries, hoping there would be a major, and just never picked up his number, if there was no major. Once or twice there was a major in bitches, so I did show him, hoping I'd take WD and BOW and pick up the bitch points. One thing I also did was purchase AKC's "Find A Major" statistics. It's in their store and I just looked up his breed:

https://www.akc.org/store/reports/event/index.cfm?report_cde=FNDMJR

It covers a 4 month period and is $2.00 per state. Of course in our breed,that info is easier to know I think.

Anyway, please just be careful, and keep on topic without bashing this person. Whatever this person's behavior is, that reflects on her. How we act back reflects on OUR ability to be sportsmanlike.

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if she were concerned about the AKC rules she would not be doing this in the first place. people have spoken to her about this and she gives them attitude.
who needs that

I'm new, but isn't it just as good to finish with three 5-pt majors than the 2 majors and a whole bunch of singles?

I, for one, think it is absolutely fine for people to, say, only show at specialties under breeder-judges where there will be majors to win than to have to show at a bunch of small all-breed shows where there *might* be a point or two to win. Besides, many of the specialty show winners may not do well under, say, a GSP breeder-judge at an all-breed show so it could be a waste of money?

I guess *this* side of the argument doesn't make sense to me. I would love to finish a dog in 3 shows with all 5-pt majors. It seems like that would open up the arena at soooo many other shows for other dogs to win?
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Conversely, what about the person who is showing a dog that has both it's majors and only needs single points to finish? They go on to win 3 or 4 majors to finish a dog. Why shouldn't these people have the same scruples and show at the small point shows to earn the last points instead of taking the major away from those of us that still need 1 or both majors? Have you seen how many labradors have been finishing with 3 or 4 majors and a very short show career?

There is nothing wrong with showing a dog who already has both majors but still needs singles at major shows, they still need those points to finish. If a dog can finish with all majors, then it must be a pretty nice dog! However, someone who has a dog that is singled out and stuck on majors and wins at single point shows cannot use those points to complete their championship, so those points are just wasted and could have went to someone who could have used them.

It's interesting. I know what I know, but don't know what you know. Maybe some people are insecure and think they have to spout what they know so they look important. They usually don't do themselves any favors. I know that sometimes I have to forceably keep my mouth shut and listen. I will learn more that way and people like to hear themselves talk more than they want to hear me, most times!

We're like our dogs!! Lots of posturing, etc. Not that our dogs are politicking though! Too many alpha bitches, not enough BETA's!!! Though some of our dogs just want to get along and practice tolerance. I guess it takes all types!!!

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If people don't enter when how are you ever going to get a major?

I think the real issue is that she is announcing it at ring side, so someone nicely educate her "nicely" that she is making a bad name for herself by doing this. Newbie's don't know and will only learn by someone "helping" them and letting them know.

It sounds like you are jealous because this dog is winning and you are not.

okay, dizzy now

It doesn't matter if a dog finishes with all majors! They need the points! I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. It is NOT the same as taking single points that you do not need to finish. Sorry if I sound pissed off, but I am. I talked till I was blue in the face to this woman trying to explain to her how it is not the same. She didn't get it either. Are you her??

Um, no. She has been talked to nicely, and not so nicely, by several different people. Her dog is not my type, thank you. And, she is not winning very often. Her bitch now has 11 or 12 points. She will not stop showing her, even though she has singles she does not need. Jealousy has nothing to do with it. You are way off base on this one.

The bitch seems to be the judges type my dear miss breeder.

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Um, no. She has been talked to nicely, and not so nicely, by several different people. Her dog is not my type, thank you. And, she is not winning very often. Her bitch now has 11 or 12 points. She will not stop showing her, even though she has singles she does not need. Jealousy has nothing to do with it. You are way off base on this one.

I think you are missing the point. The fact that she has won is not the problem. If you read the posts above, I think you will see that. Let me ask you old timer, If you have a dog that has all her singles, and only needs majors, would you continue to show her when even if you go best of breed, you could not possibly pick up a major? If so, please explain why. Thank you.

No, I personally would not keep showing.

What I am opposed to is the method of conveying this message to her on this public forum. The anger in yours and others posts is not representative of good sportsmanship or of a nice person. Not knowing who the lady showing is doesn't afford any of us the ability to judge her based on your opinion of her. You may be the only one who dislikes her. To say she is an idiot and clueless makes you and the others look bad.

nope.

Well, I have spoken to this person several weeks ago and she did confirm that she was showing the bitch in hopes of a group win for the majors.
She understands that she is "taking away" points for others dogs, if you want to call it that. However, if that is what she wants to do, so what?
If she has a nice bitch, and she does, then she is going to beat the bitches who aren't as nice. Period.
I can undertsand both sides here, and I myself would not be going about it this way, but that is her right.
She did say she was going to look for the majors for future shows....
I for one, think she should just pay a pro to show the bitch in the appropriate shows and be done with it!

So, does that mean you don't approve of Specials being shown as they already have their CH and are taking points away from someone else????

If it is ok, please explain the difference to me.

When does a special take points from a class dog? Not in AKC.

How can a special take points away from someone, you don't get championship points for winning BOB. The points you get for winning BOB that goes towards the breed rankings are totally different. Unless you are talking about showing a finished dog in open? That is allowed but why anyone would want to waste money to do that is beyond me! There would be no point in doing that (excuse the pun!)

If the person doesn't care, then there is no changing her attitude. Unfortunately the sport is helped by having friends and support of other exhibitors, but I guess she doesn't need any friends if she is alienating people.

I have friends who DO pull their dogs out when a show drops out of being a major. A friend of mine pulled 2 dogs this weekend AFTER picking up her numbers, decided to leave the 2 points to someone who needs it. I agree with that.

If a person has their two majors and just needs points to finish, I see no problem with them choosing to show at any show in order to try to win those points.

That was the honorable thing to do.

Actually, it is not uncommon for rare breeds to put finished champions in the open class to build numbers for a major.

If someone told me "not so nicely" to stop showing my dog or bitch when I'd paid the entry fee, I just might keep doing it to spite them.

May be she enters shows hoping for a major and instead of wasting her money when finding out there is no major she just shows?????????

"If the person doesn't care, then there is no changing her attitude. Unfortunately the sport is helped by having friends and support of other exhibitors, but I guess she doesn't need any friends if she is alienating people."

How do you no she has no friends and that she is alienating people Jen? Just because 1 person says it doesn't mean it's true!

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If the person doesn't care, then there is no changing her attitude. Unfortunately the sport is helped by having friends and support of other exhibitors, but I guess she doesn't need any friends if she is alienating people.

I have friends who DO pull their dogs out when a show drops out of being a major. A friend of mine pulled 2 dogs this weekend AFTER picking up her numbers, decided to leave the 2 points to someone who needs it. I agree with that.

If a person has their two majors and just needs points to finish, I see no problem with them choosing to show at any show in order to try to win those points.

Well this thread sure is a waste of space on the forum. Sounds like alot of sour grapes to me. What this person does is her business. What makes some of you people think you have the right to dictate what is right or wrong. You must have something better to do with your time, like maybe tend to your own dogs and mind your own business!

I agree!!!!

How do you no she has no friends and that she is alienating people Jen? Just because 1 person says it doesn't mean it's true!

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How can a special take points away from someone, you don't get championship points for winning BOB. The points you get for winning BOB that goes towards the breed rankings are totally different. Unless you are talking about showing a finished dog in open? That is allowed but why anyone would want to waste money to do that is beyond me! There would be no point in doing that (excuse the pun!)

Question, how would you feel if you took reserve to this person, knowing that the points were wasted on that dog and your dog needed them and most likely would have been winners if not for the other dog who did not even need those points? I think the original post was addressing the issue of courtesy to your fellow exhibitors, thats all. There may not be any AKC rule saying you can't show, but what about the unwritten rule of being considerate to others? Or does that not matter anymore, is the new rule I have to win and the heck with everyone else?

What you are saying is that because her bitch is nicer than yours she shouldn't be showing her and take the single points you might get if she wasn't there. If this is a "hobby" as so many of you claim what is so wrong with showing for the fun of it? Maybe you think she should just leave her girl home in a kennel and get another bitch to show....then if the same thing happens..another. Sour grapes. Funny how so many folks claim to know who this is

And what is wrong with being courteous to others, hobby or not? It has nothing to do with how nice anyone's dog is, it is about being considerate to others, you so do not get the whole point.

In todays show world where entries and handling fees are high, not to mention gas prices and hotel rates, to keep dragging her dog to all those shows - even if handled by the owner must be costing a fortune. And with nothing to show for it except additional points that will never be used toward the dog's championship. How rude is that in the lab world. Like someone said she's new, but making no friends.

This is how someone's good name can get ruined. All it takes is one sour grape with a big mouth full of rubbish.

We have a dog in the exact same position as this bitch and we always pull him from the non-major shows (and No...hoping for a group 1st is ridiculous as far as good sportsmanship). We also have bitches that we show...and if we were at a show where we had pulled our dog and she had not pulled her bitch and we took reserve to her...we would not be very pleased......obviously any dog/bitch that has that many points is decent looking and probably deserving of the point...but hey come on.....does she want any friends in the breed?

If this is the exhibitor/bitch I think you mean....I hope she remembers howmany times she showed up with multiple multiple dogs (including said bitch) at a show and expected the other exhibitors to help her handle all of her dogs (as well as their own)....she has a funny way of repaying the favors.....hmmmmm

"it has nothing to do with how nice anyone's dog is..." HUH??? I think it has everything to do with that!! Isn't that what showing is all about?

Well, my bitch needs only her majors to show. I entered her at Greenwich this past weekend and kept her home. There were no majors but that's not why I kept her home. I was tired and didn't feel like showing.

Had I not been feeling less than great, I would've shown her just to get her out there (she's not the most confident of showdogs) and to give myself some practice, just for fun. I see *nothing* wrong with that.

I also had a b*tch stay home from greenwich because it wasnt a major, and this person was there and showed her b*tch.

Jen

She had every right to show her b#tch. And you have the right to stay home if you want to. Enough of this childish prattle!

breeder 38...I agree...with you also yellowlab...anyone can show who has an AKC registered dog...the heck with the poor losers...they are just that...losers.

Problem with that idea is she has pissed off some pro handlers and also declared herself as a "pro".

And God forbid. you are the one who "breaks" a major. You could be in the hospital having emergency brain surgery and people would still find a reason to blame you for not getting your dog to the show.

Personally, I would not show my bitch in a show where there is no chance of a major if she only needs majors. Exceptions would be if there was a major in dogs. Also, if she just had not been shown for a while, I would think it is appropriate to get her some ring time.

But just because I wouldn't do it, and therefore I don't think it is right for other people to, it doesn't mean I would go on-line and whine about it.

Showing a dog that is pointed out (only needs majors) in a show that is not majors is usually brands the person as rude and/or clueless, and is not the best way to make friends.

And unless it's a very small show, intending to get points by taking a group 1 is, well, delusional.

On the other hand, I can think of some reasons you might want to: You might show the dog to hold a point (but you sure wouldn't push for the win.) You might show it to compete in a special event like a Bred By group.

But to show for the thrill of winning? Nah. Not good sportsmanship.

Maybe you should print out these responses and quietly slip them into the person's bag or something.

Well, I do know of a dog that kept showing hoping at times to cross over and at times to get a G1 for a major. The day after he finished he took a well deserved G1 so never say never.

What a nice idea Nancy. I'll think of that if I see you lurking around my bag. Godd lord!

Now that is one of the most immature comments I have read on this posting yet! This sounds like you're in grade school Don't you have anything better to do than stab people behind their backs

I agree with you nother breeder. This has gotten totally out of hand and immature on the part of some. How disappointing!

"Um, no. She has been talked to nicely, and not so nicely"

Makes you wonder whether she was talked to nicely first, or not so nicely..! From the tone of this forumn I would say the latter!

I also have to mention that because points are posted on the AKC website doesn't mean they can't be taken away. I No longer stop at 9 points.. I always get a couple extra points (usually one extra point per two point win), until I have that CH certificate in hand. Any of you can check with the AKC, they can take points away from a dog up until the title certificate is recorded. So, if any of you have two point wins or even majors on your dogs and some dogs get disqualified, guess what.. your 3 or 2 point win could be 2 or 1 point in a heart beat. There is no time limit either. I know of a dog who was pulled because they thought she had her majors, and needed only two singles to finish. They got two points on her and then let her have a litter, assuming she was finished. When they check on why they didn't get her CH certificate, they found out she lost two points and spent 9 months getting her ready to get back in the ring. By the time she got back in she had lost a major (3 to 2 point) and the two singles that had been from 2 point wins. And the AKC pulled them because two bitches entered had common co-owners with the judge that they didn't know about. The wins were all from a two week span and the same exhibitors were at both weekends... how many of us see the same faces every weekend? Can you be sure everything is ok with everyone's entry? That they are keeping tabs on the co-owners and the co-owners co-owners?
I also know of a bitch in Labs that got points taken away after four years. The people who owned her didn't show her very well, but had some points on her and went from 6 to 1 in a two week time span. And the points were from shows four years earlier.

I also have to say, When did majors become easier than single points in this breed? Why is it ok to take away more than the two majors you need to finish your dog? Aren't majors harder to get/build? Then it stands to reason that those who get more majors than they need are just as guilty, if not more so since single/two point shows are more common.

Also slander is a nasty thing.. by mentioning how many points this dog has and the shows they were at, you are pinning down an individual. I hope someone who is trying to help this person does print it out and give it to them.. maybe this person can sue and hire a string of handlers. Better yet, maybe they can present it to the AKC.. I am sure this string is against their Code of sportsmanship.

Perhaps you should stop being jealous, and childish, and just worry about your own dogs and keep your comments to yourself. They always say that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all...

I would say that Nancy was poking a little fun at just how ridiculous this nonsense is. If you have such a problem with this person, deal with them directly and move on. Simple as that!

Oh really .."poking a little fun"...you can say anything you want and it's OK as long as you qualify it with "just kidding."

Time for me to go wash my car :-)

It is getting pretty bad when you now have (dog show Monitors)lurking around the rings. Get a life!!!!

why the newbs are afraid to start showing. With the likes of this going on, it is much easier to stay home with our labs, knowing they could care less who does what.

Hi Trolls!

I can tell you are trolls because you get very grumpy, and always do exactly what you complain about - change the subject to complaining about other posts and posters. You are always anonymous, call people names, use words like immature, ridiculous, getting pretty bad, out of hand, yada yada. Truth be told, the discussion was productive (although perhaps heated, but that's to be expected) right until the moment you made your first post. On this thread, it was nother breeder and Appalled who diverted the discussion away from "how to tell this exhibitor that they are doing something unsportsmanlike".

Glad to see you are still alive and well, and still just as easy to detect!

Is that yer real name Troll PaTroll? Me thinks I know who you are anyways.
You are the biggest troll of all. There was nothing productive about this thread. You are the one sitting ringside just looking for any infraction whether it be against akc rules or just a mistake by a newbie and even seasoned show people make mistakes THEY really do. If I see someone near my dogs or my things it won't be funny. This is a creepy thread and the ways being suggested to deal with it are cowardly and mean.