Labrador Retriever Forum
Say you have an average looking dog or bitch who has passed all of their clearances.
What strategies have worked for you to be able to produce puppies that you like that have a chance to be successful in the breed ring? (Specialties more so than All-breed)
Is it best to give up and start over?
This particular bitch of mine is really not show quality, though she has a decent pedigree. She could use more bone, is a bit straight in the upper arm, needs coat, and has almost a herring gut. Temperament is OK....could be a little more relaxed - can be a bit nervous at times, but isn't that bad.
Do you give up? Do you find a dog that looks like you'd want her to look like? Go to a prepotent sire? What about pedigree, i.e. linebreeding?
Any success stories?? Tips?
Your best bet it to get a new girl to start from, a good breeders second best would be better than you trying to start from a mediocore dog. I did it (started all over) and it was the best thing I ever did because i'm happy with what i'm producing now in my kennel.
Aloha,
Jackie
www.blacksandslabradors.com
I haven't bred a litter yet, so mind that, but here's my thought process. I would think about the line she is from. Does she have all the weaknesses that are preponent in her line, or are these "new" faults for that particular line? What are her strengths, and how strong are they, and are they what is preponent in that line or are they "new" strengths?
If my bitch's weaknesses were "new" weaknesses for her line, and her strengths were entrenched in her line, I would think about doing a tight linebreeding back into that line and seeing what happened. She could be a fluke herself, and produce very well. If you don't get anything you like, you have your answer and put the whole litter in pet homes. At the same time, you can be getting that 2nd bitch anyways to kick things up a notch. Of course it depends on how meidocre you find her--if you can't find any true "strengths" or things that she is exceptionally good in, then there really isn't a point to breeding her.
If my bitch had all the weaknesses of her line, and brand-spanking-new strengths, then you know that she doesn't have a solid history of those strengths behind her, which means that her pups will be more of a gamble as to whether they will get those strengths, unless you find a stud that has them from either her line (in which case they won't be entrenched in his gene pool, either) or go to an outcross.
I agree, with Jackie. Find a nice girl and start over. I did the same years ago. Think alot of us have done this. She is right it can take years to catch up to where others are. IF, you are wanting to show. 
Interesting point. She is not as nice as her mother and grandmother, who I really like. I just don't think the sire and her mother "clicked". I had thought about linebreeding her back to an uncle who has great clearances and some of the strengths that she lacks, i.e. nice front, great coat, etc. I also have a nephew that may be able to "fix" some of her issues. (he has nice depth of body, nice upper arm, nice substance, nice coat, nice temperament, etc.)
I have another bitch who I adore who will be bred soon, so I don't need to buy anything right now, but it is a matter of should I keep this other particular bitch who is all I have out of her mother or not and try a breeding.
Just curious as to how others have dealt with the same, and possible successful strategies. (and actually, she is nicer than some "champions" I have seen...just not my type.
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I haven't bred a litter yet, so mind that, but here's my thought process. I would think about the line she is from. Does she have all the weaknesses that are preponent in her line, or are these "new" faults for that particular line? What are her strengths, and how strong are they, and are they what is preponent in that line or are they "new" strengths?
If my bitch's weaknesses were "new" weaknesses for her line, and her strengths were entrenched in her line, I would think about doing a tight linebreeding back into that line and seeing what happened. She could be a fluke herself, and produce very well. If you don't get anything you like, you have your answer and put the whole litter in pet homes. At the same time, you can be getting that 2nd bitch anyways to kick things up a notch. Of course it depends on how meidocre you find her--if you can't find any true "strengths" or things that she is exceptionally good in, then there really isn't a point to breeding her.
If my bitch had all the weaknesses of her line, and brand-spanking-new strengths, then you know that she doesn't have a solid history of those strengths behind her, which means that her pups will be more of a gamble as to whether they will get those strengths, unless you find a stud that has them from either her line (in which case they won't be entrenched in his gene pool, either) or go to an outcross.
If you like her garndparents and parent line breed to her grandfather and see if that produces something... its gonna take longer however to get your lines going.
Try not to kid yourself. Starting out with a mediocre bitch will cost you generations of disapointment.
Not all great dogs come from great bitches. You will not know what she will produce until you breed her. When selecting a stud dog he should not only have the qualities she lacks but also pass them on to his get and his parents should have shown them as well. (a hard thing to find I know)
Good Luck w/ her.
My foundation bitch is not show quality but she sure can produce. She was sold as a brood bitch with the hopes that any future puppies she produced would pick up on the good genes on both sides of her pedigree. We took her to some great stud dogs and have not been disappointed. Her one daughter has already earned her first major and many points from the puppy classes and I'm sure will earn her American Championship long before she turns 2 yrs old.
With 3 litters under her belt, I am convinced that an avergage Joe Bitch can be blessed with some fabulous genes just waiting to burst out with the right stud dog !!
I'm a firm believer that if you have a mediocre female out of a great pedigree, that she can be bred to "Mr Right", and you can get some beautiful pups. I call it second generation quality. I've done it.
You have to study both dogs and be sure he can improve her faults. It doesn't hurt to go back in the line to see if what you want to improve is consistent. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
OK-- Say you have a second pick bitch from a top breeder and this bitch has a great pedigree. Littermates are finished. Would you breed to one of the top studs or what sort of line breeding?
please don't listen to the posters on here that haven't "been there" haven't "done that" and don't know when to keep quiet. You know who you are. They comment on everything on here and have never even had a dog decent enough to show at a specialty, haven't bred hardly any litters, and don't know good type. I think they're bored.
Well Little Miss Bliss, aren't you just a ray of sunshine !!
Age doesn't always bring Wisdom, Sometimes Age comes Alone
If the top stud dog had what my girl needed, yes I would breed to him. If he didn't, why would I? You have to look at the whole picture. What does your girl need? That's what you have to look for in a stud dog and check his pedigree to make sure his line is consistant.
I HAVE "been there" and "done that" and have "done well at specialties"!
That remark was not necessary. The person was asking for advice.
It also depends on what her weaknesses that make her not show quality are. Some weaknesses are easy to breed out of a line, others you work for generations to try to fix them only to rear their ugly head time and time again. (BTW- heads are considered fairly easy to fix)
Gail-
the post wasn't referring to you at all.
I would go to the breeder who bred the dog and first find out what lines work with the said bitch, I would then look for a male that is a producer of good puppies out of the lines that the breeder knows works with the bitch's lines. I never look for the top stud dog or the top winning dog, only what works with my lines or what lines I feel will improve what needs to be improved on my girls.
Aloha,
Jackie
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OK-- Say you have a second pick bitch from a top breeder and this bitch has a great pedigree. Littermates are finished. Would you breed to one of the top studs or what sort of line breeding?
We in the worl does every question have to turn into a fight on here???
I have had "average" bitches and I have produced better and better every generation from them.
You just have to breed to the right dogs and have a good eye!
Good luck, I'd go for it!
Being a new person, and just planning my first litter, I can only speculate. I understand what the other wrote. I imagine you ask because you are hoping she does produce nice. Logically, your option is to find the best male, do a test breeding. If you like what you get, you're fine. If you don't, that will be your wake up call that you probably should pass her on and start over with a new bitch.
The original poster gave a list of faults her bitch has.Most of the faults are pretty major faults. No dog is perfect but it sounds like a long list and no dog will improve all of that in one generation. It may be a good idea to start over with a bitch with one or 2 things that need to be improved.
I definately would not linebreed as that line is how you got to this point in the first place.
Breeding is a 50-50 deal and you need both a good bitch as well as a good stud dog to increase your chances of producing quality.
I would start looking for a new girl.
It's hard to start out with a Volkswagon and end up with a Cadillac.
The odds are very high against you.
I am certainly not an expert opinion as I have only had one breeding bitch but here is my experience.
I got my bitch who has in my opinion very special lines that I like VERY much. The only reason I was lucky enough to get her was because another breeder had not had luck producing what she wanted out of her, although it wasn't put to me like that, I know that was likely the case. I fell in love with her temperament and knew there were some areas she needed improvement, but that overall she was a very nice bitch. But did wonderful temperament, and what _I_ thought was a nice bitch equal a good foundation for me?
I studied her lines intently and then CONTACTED the breeders who bred her parents and a few others giving photos and info and asking honest opinions of the bitch, (in my case also giving info on who she had been bred to prior with what results) What I got back was she was a nice typy bitch who exemplified many of the traits of her lines who needed to be bred back carefully to the right dog to get what I was looking for and that the breedings she had already had were not what they would have chosen. Some had some very nice things to say about her and really allayed many of my fears. I listened to what they said and looked for my boy accordingly. If they had said, she is nice, but you will have problems with this or that trait, or if i had been unable to find the boy needed, I would have let it go and waited for the right bitch.
I know my case is a bit different because I had breedings to look at already, but since she had not produced that great pup yet, it was a big question to me as to if the breeding should be done as I wasn't just wanting to breed for the heck of it. I feel I got lucky and wound up with a wonderful breeding out of her, but I really believe it was only because I sought out people who knew her lines and gave me an honest evaluation. (that and I found that right boy) If you like the lines that much then I would show that respect to those breeders by involving them in your choice and going from there. Being so young in my own labby career I know how it is to just want to get into it all, to be involved. It may be hard to resist that temptation to jump right in with a bitch who is ready to breed but may be the wrong gal in the long run, but you may find that by going to the breeders you aspire to be like and showing your willingness to do what they feel is right for your girl (and the breed) you might open another window of opportunity and find one who would be happy to place another better bitch with you in order to get you a good start.
Although I think you can certainly breed a girl up and get great results,people who talk of this and do it successfully are generally talking about a girl who although maybe not a CH herself, still has things pretty darn together and certainly has a superior temperament. I wonder if you don't already feel deep down that she isn't the right one for your start as you did have a really long list of issues. Listen to your gut:) Best of luck to you!
Annie
I don't know that her list is all that bad...
Needs more bone- this could be from not being 'fed for bone' as a puppy as most dogs in the show ring are or she could be comparing her to some of the cloddy specimens we see in the ring today that are overdone (recall the Crook's seminar at LRCP about what a working dog is required to do?)
Needs a better coat... Is she a housedog? Are you comparing to what is winning in the ring today that is 'dripping in coat' and usually kennel dogs kept in climates to aid in maximum coat growth.
How many of us aren't trying to improve fronts in the breed today? I think we are all in that boat. Read many specialty critiques and the foreign judges overall say our fronts are getting better, but short upperarms continue to be a point to work on.
Her commment on temperment does sit as an area of concern as it can be passed on and it doesn't sound like she has what should be the strived for 'bullet proof family pet, never meets a stranger' temperment that our breed is looked to to have by the public.
Oh you said everything I wanted to breeder! Front's and temperaments are two that perturb me. I happen to enjoy seeing a dog dripping in coat so I know who to breed to next time if he is what I need A brood bitch doesn't need that type of coat. Breed to where you know it can be produced. Temperament 
Look in recent years some of the top dawgs that had incorrect front assembly.
I think the owner needs a long time breeder to look at her bitch.
Cheers!
I don't see any reason why you would throw her away. It is easier to "breed her up" and produce some thing better and better for the first three generations (if bred properly). It is for sure more fun that way. You could start all over again, but for what? To get a bitch from what every one feels is better lines but stil may have health issues, still not be spectacular, still have faults. It would not be the first time some one started over only to go "Oops...my bad" later and wish they would have never done it. Now if you are talking about a true pet bitch with a so-so pedigree then that is another story. It would all depend on her conformation, pedigree and knowing her faults. I think it would be great fun...that is where I started and now 6 generations later I have exactly what I want and did get there pretty quickly.
That is very tricky question. I have seen litters where I would take any of the first 5 pups home with me in the litter and also litters where I would not want a single one...all out of super bred peds of course. Turn that around and the beauties could mature into nothing worth keeping and the ugly ducklings could turn around to be stunning at an older age.
So...taking that into consideration you have to know the pedigree and the faults of the littermates (if possible), sire, dam and as much information as possible including indepth pedigree research to determine that and make the best choice. All breeders have their own "ideal" conformation with traits that they may really dislike while other breeders may not mind it.
So the only way to ask that question and be confident with the answer is to know that the person you are asking has the exact same eye as you do. If you take the advice of every person that gives it (breeder, judge or friend) then you will end up with a mixed pot of traits and can go no where.
To make it even more difficult...after all of that it can be completely luck so just put a few super stud names in a hat and draw one...you would have the same chance as putting in all of that work. People have proven that both ways. :)
Guess your standard for excellence in your bitch will depend if you just want to make puppies or if you want to produce quality puppies.
I don't think that your comment is fair. Not everyone starts with a spectacular bitch or dog. Sometimes things click and other times they don't. There are certainly no perfect dogs. I certainly don't know any, especially when you consider the whole package.
I understand that starting out with a nicer bitch will increase the chances of producing nicer pups, and that maybe not breeding her might make sense, however, since this is the only bitch I have out of her mom, who I really liked, and I also really liked her grandam, I may experiment and linebreed her on her bitch line back to a dog that has strengths where she has weaknesses. If that doesn't work then I will probably give up on her, but I may have to try it once. My question basically was to see if anyone else has had success with a girl like this - specifically, "Do you give up? Do you find a dog that looks like you'd want her to look like and breed phenotypically? ? Go to a prepotent sire? Linebreed?
I also think that I was wondering what was involved with peoples most successful breedings, but didn't say that well.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
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Guess your standard for excellence in your bitch will depend if you just want to make puppies or if you want to produce quality puppies.
You were very nice in your reply to that snotty comment made by "someone". Breeding bitches that are just so-so has been done for years. I know of some "old timers" that feel the "so-so's throw thee best looking pups". I don't look at it that way but I have seen it.... The thing that would REALLY bother me is her temperament...does it have something to do with the way she was raised or is it her personality?
As one poster stated, go for a stud that produces consistant and will compliment but do expect some of the pups to be just like her, that is the question you need to ask yourself...do you mind having pups like her and will there be a place for them? are you willing to take on more like her or have others like her out there with your name on them. It really boils down to that in the end and without a fantastic temperament everything else is lost, I don't care how good looking a dog is. GOOD LUCK!
The reply was not meant to be snotty.People ask for advice and when it isnt what they want to hear they get unhappy.
There were several sensible posts why she shouldnt breed the bitch.Why bring a litter into the world of overpopulated dogs unless you are really excited and positive about what the result may be. If you have to ask then It most likely is not a good idea or the questions would never have entered your mind.
well Someone, obviously you have the SECRET on how to predict every litter result... please share so we can all learn and not waste our time...
It wasn't what you said, it was how you said it. It did *read* snotty. I agree on bringing less than perfect pups into this world. She asked for guidence and wanted to know the best way to do the breeding to get the best results so she could make her own decisions. There is no perfect specimen...all of them have their holes, some more than others.
She is a very sweet girl. Loves people. Plays well with my dogs. However, when in a strange place or in the dark by herself, she is a bit "tense". Woo, woo, woo! Not 100% secure in herself.
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You were very nice in your reply to that snotty comment made by "someone". Breeding bitches that are just so-so has been done for years. I know of some "old timers" that feel the "so-so's throw thee best looking pups". I don't look at it that way but I have seen it.... The thing that would REALLY bother me is her temperament...does it have something to do with the way she was raised or is it her personality?
As one poster stated, go for a stud that produces consistant and will compliment but do expect some of the pups to be just like her, that is the question you need to ask yourself...do you mind having pups like her and will there be a place for them? are you willing to take on more like her or have others like her out there with your name on them. It really boils down to that in the end and without a fantastic temperament everything else is lost, I don't care how good looking a dog is. GOOD LUCK!
Sounds like socialization problem or the lack of.
