"Needs more bone- this could be from not being 'fed for bone' as a puppy as most dogs in the show ring are or she could be comparing her to some of the cloddy specimens we see in the ring today that are overdone (recall the Crook's seminar at LRCP about what a working dog is required to do?)"

It's always been my thought that bone was a genetic component and couldn't be increased by fattening the puppies up like feed-lot cattle.

Is there any reference material, besides anecdotal, that points to increased weight as a puppy increases bone mass?

I've always been one to raise the dogs leaner and allow them to mature naturally rather than to force something.

Your thoughts?

It's been my experience that bone is bone. They have it when they are born. Overfeeding a young dog can increase the risk of developing hip dysplasia. It won't add bone. Overfeeding to add the impression of "bone and substance" just makes dogs look like ticks on sticks.

Look to your next generation and breed to increase bone - it's one of the easier things to work into your line.

I think I missed my meaning in the first post. I mean having the puppies "fed for bone" and then reducing that later as adults for showing.

I have heard of puppies "losing bone" because they were fed conservatively for joint protection. I agree if they don't have it at 8 weeks; they'll never have it. I would love to see hard data or literature on "feeding to keep bone" also.

While I believe that the maximum amount of bone a dog will have will always be decided on the genetic factor, I do believe that if a dog is fed conservatively and kept on the lean side, that they may not grow to their fullest potential.

When I was in 4H as a teenager, I raised hogs. We were always taught to buy our feeder or weaner pigs on the bit smaller or younger side so that we could feed them well enough to let them grow to their fullest potential. We had a weight limit, but not an age limit, so if your hog was older you'd have to feed more conservatively so that it would not grow over the limit. Essentially we were holding them back. The term used in the ring for those hogs was that they looked "stale".

I know some breeders are always saying keep your puppies lean, don't let them get overweight or you'll cause joint problems. I am sorry but I have to disagree. While, I will not let a puppy become grossly overweight (just because it spoils their look), I will NOT hold a puppy back because it "might" cause joint problems. I am of the belief that joint problems such as Hip and Elbow Dysplasia and OCD are GENETIC! While allowing them to grow to their fullest potential may allow for the disease to be expressed more severely, I do NOT believe that it will in fact CAUSE the problem. Contribute maybe, but if the dog is predisposed to the disease, I'd rather know about it and remove him or her from my breeding program than to try to mask it by underfeeding.

Knock on wood, I've been pretty successful over the years in raising sound, healthy dogs with minimal joint problems.

Dianne

"allowing them to grow to their fullest potential may allow for the disease to be expressed more severely"

Excellent point. And it's an ethical dilemma also. If you believe that maintaining a heavier (as opposed to leaner) body condition will allow the dog to fully develop "bone", but by maintaining that body condition you increase the risk of expressing joint problems... On the other hand, how do you know if there is a genetic propensity towards joint problems if you don't allow it to be expressed. Is it ok to let joint problems develop in a dog in order to expose the genes, or is it better to feed so that the genes aren't expressed at all? Tough questions for breeders to consider.

But by maintaining a lean body condition we aren't talking about malnutrition. I try to maintain a relatively lean body condition in my young dogs, and nobody has yet accused my dogs of having any lack of bone .

Interesting thread. There is some good research out there - Cornell did some extensive work on feeding and hip dysplasia, but I don't know if they measured bone or other development factors in any way.

This is exactly why you can sell a beautiful puppy to a pet home and the vet tells them to keep the dog thin resulting in the dog never "blooming" or reaching the full potential. They don't need to be kept overweight but need the proper nutrition to mature properly. I like to feel a slight layer of fat while still being able to feel the ribs. I think over exercizing and doing heavy field work with a puppy does much more damage to the joints. I do put them on adult food at a very early age but it is quality food.
Traci

I agree 100% Traci - I just can't stand these pet people who listen to their pet vets and keep their puppies so thin it's almost a crime, spay or neuter too early, and then wonder why their dog doesn't look MY dogs!

Ok, I just want to Thank You as a pet person who disagrees with Vet. My vet has told me my 6 month old boy is perfect, health and weight, yet he suggest feeding much less than we do. How can that be? Perfect all around but feed less? He is a big, active and strong boy. I think I will stay with what works.

In defense (a tiny bit) of those pet vets that drive me so crazy....I do understand that they are going from experience. The larger scale problem lies within the puppy mills and BYBs. These vets see A LOT of very poorly bred "Labradors". They fix a LOT of hips and they probably see 1 well bred lab to 10 puppy mill bred labs....So, I can see why such precautions in feeding advice.
However, I think the vets need to start taking a look at where their clients are getting the puppies they bring in. If the vets were more involved in that aspect, they might be able to identify a well bred dog when they see one walk in the door.
I tell all my puppy people to bring the ENTIRE puppy pack I provided to their vet and SHOW him everything. Parents clearances, pedigree, health records, etc. Everything.
I do this in hopes the vet will see the dog came from a reputable breeder. And guess what...it works!
I have several vets recommending me to clients looking for new puppies!
What a nice compliment that is!

I agree totally with you. I happen to be one of the lucky ones who took the time to do research and know the difference between Puppy Mill/Pet Store Labs and the QUALITY Breeders. As you can see, I found my way here just for that reason. I love to learn from the source of the quality, appreciating every second of it!

You are probably right as far as Vets go, they are probably trying to be on the safe side with the dog's health in mind. My vet has asked me many questions and is often surprised at what I have learned.

So Thanks Again to all of you!!!! It is much appreciated

I just LOVE puppy customers like you!
You educated yourself and you are well informed.
I'm seeing more and more like you now that the internet is so standard.
It's wonderful!!!!
Maybe someday the puppy mills will just go out of business because the world got smarter than them!! LOL!!

We can only hope. As far as Puppy Mills, get them one Puppy at a time I guess. I wish it was easier than that!.

I would say to all of you, just keep up what you are doing, you are reaching people. I will tell you that every time I am asked about my boy, which is pretty much every time I take him out, I take that opportunity to explain what I have learned. It can take me 40 minutes to get from my truck into the store because people stop me to ask about him, LOL.

I have found that people DO see the difference between him and "other Labs they have seen". They just don't know until they have the chance to see the difference.

I wish that that were true. But, alas, the puppy mills will always be with us. The hobby breeder will never be able to keep up with the demand for lab pups. Hopefully, the conditions of the puppy mills will improve, but I doubt it.

Take a look at the reason for keeping puppies thin:

http://www.purina.com/science/research/DogMoreYears.aspx

Thanks, I took a look at that. It makes sense. My dogs are not free fed, they would be real fatties if I allowed that! We keep a very close watch on our dogs' weight, having learned a lot about the risks of being overweight. I just don't prefer a very very lean dog.

Based on the article we fit right into the "ideal body weight". If only the humans in the house could say that

Thank you for the info