I know that there are many of you that do not accept deposits before a litter has been born and I respect that. This question is for those who do accept deposits when planning the litter please.

I am not knowing what to do. I have accepted a deposit for a litter that is planned for a few months from now. Upon acceptance, this person was informed in writing that if she later changed her mind or was unable to take her puppy for any reason then her deposit would be non-refundable.

She recently emailed to let me know she would like to cancel her reservation because she could not wait for my litter and has adopted two other puppies from another breeder instead. Now she wants a refund of her deposit. I have explained, explained, and explained to her that the deposit is not refundable and she has given me many different reasons (all contradicting each other) as to why she HAD to cancel her reservation. She has been emailing for almost a week, arguing with me about my policy about non-refundable deposits.

When she finally realized I wouldn't refund the deposit she insisted that I put her back on the reservation list for a puppy in a few months. This woman is horrible and is very dishonest. I would never place a puppy with her now. Normally I would just refund a deposit in a situation that I had any second thoughts about a person but this situation is different in that she already cancelled her reservation and I feel it is a matter of principal now. Am I wrong to stick to my guns and deny her another reservation now that she has already cancelled the one that she had originally made? Any input would be helpful.

Please don't suggest that I shouldn't be taking deposits in advance. I am not comfortable trying to get to know people well enough in a few weeks and prefer spending a few months developing a relationship before sending a puppy home to someone else's home. I have been burned by not accepting deposits in the past and find this works much better for me. Thank you.

Would not let her get away with it if you had it in writing.

She will only do it to someone else.

She cancelled so you cancelled her. She adopted TWO and now wants another???

I would NOT refund and I would NOT put her back on the list. Some people just think they are different from everyone else and deserve special treatment. If she were notified in writing as you say, there is no further discussion.

I do not take deposits until the breeding has taken place, but once the deposit is accepted, it is not refundable UNLESS I do not have a puppy for them (not enough, wrong sex, wrong personality, etc.).

MK

Another view -

If you accepted the deposit from her you might be contractually obligated to sell her a puppy. Do you feel comfortable selling her a puppy? What if she were to take you to court and the court said that by accepting her deposit, you're contractually obligated to sell her a puppy? If it was someone else that you accepted a deposit from but became uncomfortable with later, would you refund the deposit so you wouldn't have to sell them a puppy? She might want your puppy now because she feels she can resell it to get her money back. Do you feel comfortable with this? Principle or not, I think I'd give the deposit back and send her on her way.

Yes, she says she can raise three puppies at once! Boy was I wrong in my original assessment of this home. There is more though, now she is claiming that she had to cancel because she has been accepted for Invitro Fertilization and it wouldn't be fair to take on another puppy at the same time as she is pregnant and then raising a baby. Then she changed her mind when she realized I would not refund the deposit. When I pointed out to her how it would be nearly impossible to raise three puppies (and a newborn baby) at the same time she started questioning me saying, "How many dogs do you have?" Now she is apparently lodging complaints with the Better Business Bureau (even though I told her this is a hobby not a business) and my kennel club. I am so frustrated and feeling really bullied. In a way I would love to just refund the deposit and be rid of her but at the same time she is in the wrong and if my non-refundable policy is that flimsy, why even have it in the first place. And what does that do for others who accept non-refundable deposits when some breeders will refund them if people are mean enough? Ugh.

This is a little tricky. We take deposits before a litter is born and we also state in our form that we make everyone sign that if they refuse a puppy for any reason other than the health of the pup, your deposit is non-refundable. We also state that we have the right to refuse sale of a puppy to anyone at any time. However, if I were going to refuse to sell a puppy to someone after I had accepted a deposit from them, I would refund their money. I understand that she refused a puppy from you first because she couldn't wait, in which case I totally agree with you not refunding her money. But now she's saying she will take a puppy from your litter, so that's the tricky part. If I were you, I'd give her the money back just to be done with her.

I had something very similar happen to me. I took a deposit when a litter was born. When I called the couple to come for their puppy visit, they never answered the phone. When it was 7.5wks, and still had not heard from them, I left a firm voice mail stating that I would no longer have a puppy if I don't get a return call. Finally, I got a return call w/ a sob story. I told them they had plenty of time to tell me they couldn't take the dog. I did not refund their deposit since I provided them a reciept for their deposit that stated that their deposit was non-refundable. When they argued the point, I sent them a copy of the receipt that I provided when i received the deposit (in person). That kept them quiet.

Do you have her initial cancellation in writing? If you have documentation that she 'broke contract' first, I can't imagine that a court would hold you to the initial agreement. Non-refundable means ya' don't get it back...

Sorry but i'm going to have to disagree with you not refunding the money, if they didn't want the pup for any reason why would you want to have them take it just because they will loose their money.... also why would you take a deposit on something that might never happen? You could breed the dog and never have a litter from her. I think it is totally unfair for anyone to take money for something that is a "maybe" you'll get it, she could take you to court and get her money back PLUS interest for you holding her money for a "maybe"... you could have gotten to know the people you will be selling your pups to without taking their money and if it didn't pan out then so what there is always someone else ready to take that available pup.
As you can tell I never take deposits on my pups not even after they are born and I feel I know the people they are being sold to by talking to them once the breed has been done and the pups maturing enough for them to go to their new homes.
Aloha,
jackie

I think that once you accept a deposit according to the law you are obligated to give that person a puppy.I would ask a attorney or just check out the law in your state. That is why I get deposits in advance and refund them if I don't like the people or if they change there minds. This seldom happens, you can still get to know the people if you take a refundable deposit. I don't see the difference in knowing the people if you get a non refundable deposit or a refundable deposit? Like I said it is very seldom that people back out, so you should probably change your policy to refundable deposit.

I know that deposits before or after a litter is born is the breeder's own business practice but I have never been able to understand asking for a deposit before your bitch whelps her litter or before you even know if she is pregnant and can't possibly guess how many puppies she will have or what sexes.

Now the potential puppy buyers gave a breeder a deposit before the litter was born so the puppy buyer's choices are to do the good ol "Roll it over to the next litter trick" or make them wait until the next litter comes along.

Presumably, breeders have a waiting list as the pregnancy is going along and another 8 weeks to find good homes for them. Why do breeders feel like they need to take pet people's money before hand when you have plenty of time to sell those puppies ? You end up getting people upset with you over keeping their deposit especially when you end up not having a puppy to sell them when they wanted it. Is that really worth it ?

So what if the lady changed her mind Beyond Frustrated. You are the one who wrote up your contract and you are the one who can be flexible in certain cases. I would say this is one case to let it go and give the lady back her money. You still have time to sell all your puppies when they are born, if your dam indeed is even pregnant.

I disagree with taking deposits before puppies are born. We will take deposits when the puppies are born and if they decide they don't want the puppy, then I don't want it to go there and they get ther money back. I only ask that they don't tell me at the last minute when I have turned others down. You have to learn to size your buyers up when you interview them and get to know if they are sincere. Do they want a puppy or do they want YOUR puppy. Those who want a puppy from you are the sincere ones. Ellie Now the pit bulls can attack

Why do people take non refundable deposits anyway?
Too many things can go wrong and I agree with the post that stated this. So, if you take a non refundable deposit and decide you don't like the people then you tell them your not selling them a puppy and "OH WELL, NO DEPOSIT BACK", that isn't right!

I would think that if you have written proof that SHE was the one who decided not to take a puppy--even if she changed her mind later--that the non-refundable deposit would hold up in court.

This is exactly why I asked for responses from people who DO accept deposits before a litter is born.

I did not give all of the details in my post and was not looking for a debate about whether or not it is a good idea to accept deposits. I prefer to accept deposits before planning a litter and of course I refund any deposits I have accepted if there is no pregnancy or not enough puppies. The deposits are only non-refundable if people change their minds after making the reservation.

I would NOT place a puppy into a home that decided they did not want the puppy or tried to cancel a reservation. That is my point and dilema now. She is saying she would rather take the puppy instead of lose her deposit and I will not do it. My point is she already cancelled her reservation and lost that deposit. I will not sell her a puppy now that I know she doesn't really want it. I am thinking that I should be keeping the deposit because that is my policy and like many other breeders who have been burned, I want to dissuade people from reserving a puppy and then baling out at the last minute.

Maybe it is a different situation based on where you live, I don't know. But most people who do this long enough and get burned enough times end up taking deposits. Anyway, I am going off on a tangent that I didn't want to go on. The deposit debate is an old one and not worth getting into again because people all have their own way of doing things that work best for them.

Thanks to those who respected my request for input from people who do accept deposits.

Gee, we pay a non-refundable application fee to the AKC if we apply for kennel name registration and it's not accepted. Are you going to argue to get those monies back?

I know you asked only for reply from those that take deposits before the litter is born, but I thought I would reply anyway so please take no offense.

I believe that the reason so many say no refunds is BECAUSE they take deposits only after pups are on the ground.
When you look at it, a person changing their mind at the last minute COULD cost a breeder more time and money if they need to hang onto that pup and extra couple weeks or longer to find another good placement.

But someone who doesnt even have pups on the ground, isnt really out at all.

I agree it sounds like they were rather inconsiderate, and thought they could disregard your policy, but it would be so much less frustration to just refund and be ever so grateful you avoided this family.

I had a situation with a puppy family changing their mind for financial reasons at the last minute, and the pups were almost ready to go. I felt I had been told untruths and strung along as they didn't even get me the deposit till very late. Turned out they really wanted a different pup. I wouldn't have thought twice about giving it back had they been honest with me, but they were not. They found a more affordable pup and after I said no, they fessed up and said they needed the money for the other pup. They gave me the whole "Fine we will get the money together and take that pup." But this was after a couple days discussion and I simply told them once they emailed me they canceled, it was done.
I went on to tell them that they knew I had done my best and always been honest with them and that they were well aware of my policy and that i would like them to consider that, and that if they still thought they should be refunded I would do so minus the paypal fees.
They wanted their money, so they got it. I felt I would have been justified in keeping it, but it wasn't worth the 90 some odd dollars to me.
I thought of it as my mistake. I obviously missed something major when choosing them and I was happy my pup didn't go to them.

I think the best deposit policy for anyone who really wants to take money before the pups are born is to state that the deposits are REFUNDABLE up until the pups are born, and to take only a token amount to show a commitment. Personally, I wouldn't want the money before I knew I had what the families wanted because it would just be something else to worry about if my girl had problems with her litter.
Annie

I take a very small deposit--a check--which I DO NOT cash. I continue to talk to folks and get to know them. If at any time I don't like the way things are going or sounding I mail them back their check.

This is what I did in the situation that I wrote about regarding the refund in the post above.

If you have a good enough reputatiuon and treat people in a professional way then you won't get burned. Ellie

Back a few years ago, there were a few lab breeders in my area who were getting calls to 'reserve a pup for my family'. Come to find out, the same people were calling lots of lab breeders, and putting their name on each breeders 'reserve' list. Then when the time came, the 'family' would pick which breeder to buy the pup from, and all the other breeders were out of a sale, having told other callers that the pups were spoken for. Deposits assure that that practice is kept to a minimum, and speaks to the sincerety of the buyer, to some extent.
If you have a written policy that is given to the person in exchange for the deposit, then that is the policy! Give them a copy, and have them sign a copy for your files.....JMHO.....

You know what? This is the United States of America and people can shop around all they want and buy what they want and should not be told to pay a deposit on a product that is not even manufactured yet. And if you think a lawyer is going to take a case where he is not going to make money then forget that too. Ellie

Sorry but again you are wrong, how can you take a deposit for just a reservation? Even hotels where you book a room let you cancel within a certain amount of time after you've paid the deposit for whatever reason.
And I hate to tell you but i've probably been breeding dogs longer than you have, 26 years to be exact and I have had people decide they don't want a pup now and it doesn't bother me another good home will and does come along. If your going to breed dogs be prepared to take care of them for longer than you think you will in case you end up keeping them longer than expected. It shouldn't be a money making thing, it should be because you wanted to keep a pup for yourself and have the excess for sale.
Sorry I can see no justification for you keeping or taking someones money for something they never got or will get or a breeding that might not take.
Aloha,
Jackie

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Replying to:

This is exactly why I asked for responses from people who DO accept deposits before a litter is born.

I did not give all of the details in my post and was not looking for a debate about whether or not it is a good idea to accept deposits. I prefer to accept deposits before planning a litter and of course I refund any deposits I have accepted if there is no pregnancy or not enough puppies. The deposits are only non-refundable if people change their minds after making the reservation.

I would NOT place a puppy into a home that decided they did not want the puppy or tried to cancel a reservation. That is my point and dilema now. She is saying she would rather take the puppy instead of lose her deposit and I will not do it. My point is she already cancelled her reservation and lost that deposit. I will not sell her a puppy now that I know she doesn't really want it. I am thinking that I should be keeping the deposit because that is my policy and like many other breeders who have been burned, I want to dissuade people from reserving a puppy and then baling out at the last minute.

Maybe it is a different situation based on where you live, I don't know. But most people who do this long enough and get burned enough times end up taking deposits. Anyway, I am going off on a tangent that I didn't want to go on. The deposit debate is an old one and not worth getting into again because people all have their own way of doing things that work best for them.

Thanks to those who respected my request for input from people who do accept deposits.

I would think that if you elect to keep her deposit she has every right to expect that she is still on your list for a puppy, regardless of what she has purchased in the meantime.
Just give her the money back and wash your hands of it.

I understand that it would be frustrating to be "played" like that, but you should be able to easily tell those people by how they keep in contact with you.
I dont have the experience that many here do in labs, but I am a real communicator. I EXPECT when I put you on a list we will be getting to know each other well while waiting for the grand event and I tell people that is exactly WHY I want a list in advance.
I know this might not sit well with all but I personally prefer people who are internet savvy who will take the time to mail back and forth a good deal.
If I am getting one line emails like "still interested" etc. and I am not forming a bond with the people then they are not likely to be the kind who are going to send me pictures and updates on the pup so who needs them?
I would think someone on several "lists" wouldn't have the time to keep up the relationship and if I got "burned" on occasion, no biggie, especially if the deposit was just a token or a check to be held.
Just the 2cents of a young to the breed breeder:)
Annie

I do not take any deposits until the litter is born. After the litter is on the ground, I will only take a deposit if I can guarantee the sex/color preferred by the puppy buyer (they know up front that people without preferences will have a better chance of getting a puppy from me). If I do accept a deposit and I am subsequently unable or unwilling to provide a puppy to that person, the deposit is refunded immediately. If the puppy buyer changes their mind, the deposit is refunded once the pup is placed in a new home. These terms are known up front. An exchange of funds should benefit both parties and I believe the puppy buyer has a right to expect that a puppy will be held for them by their deposit until that deposit is returned.

In the past, I have taken deposits on half the litter, with the other half “open”. I have had people wait until week 8 not knowing whether they would get a pup (and I would not know whether I would have a home for it) because I have not yet made my selection. I always offer to refer to another breeder if they do not want to wait, and I have never had an issue with finding homes for my puppies by week 8 or 9. People are usually willing to wait because I have been honest with them from the beginning and treated them fairly.

I'd give back the money and move on. All the time and stress that you put yourself through isn't worth a deposit check. JMHO.

If I were you, I'd give her the deposit back and hope to never hear from her again. It sounds like she'll be waiting your time and nerves for a long time if she does not get her deposit back. For me, parting with some money would be worth not having to deal with this person ever again.

Addressing the original poster... if it's something that doesn't happen often to you, I'd just give the deposit back. I guess I'm assuming it's just a small deposit anyway, but surely the time spend corresponding back and forth and the aggrivation with the situation has to be worth more than the deposit. I'd think I'd just give it back and move on and have the person out of my life. I'd just look at it as a small price to pay to be done with them.

Actually I have no problems taking deposits on litters before they are born. I've never had a problem with this. I used to only take deposit on litters after they were born, and only had one incident where the buyer backed out. I disclosed to them that the puppy had had an infection in her foot (from dewclaw removal) as a young pup and that it was treated and the pup would be fine. Well they flipped out and decided at 8 weeks not to take the puppy. Then they wanted their deposit back and I refused. So they filed a small claims court suit against me and I filed a countersuit for twice the amount for boarding and advertising, etc. They never even showed up to the proceedings and the case was dismissed.

I've been breeding a long time 25+ years and only recently (within the past 10 years) started taking deposits before the litter was born. I mainly do this because my puppy buyers really want one of *my* puppies and want to send in a deposit to ensure they are at the top of my list for one. I explain my refund policy and have refunded deposits if I don't have a puppy for them, but at the same time, I have kept forfeited deposits. However, many times there is a life change and the people can't take a puppy at that time so I do offer their deposit to be applied to a future litter-especially if they are a really good home. But I do keep deposits if necessary because I have at that point already turned away potential buyers and will usually have to wait for more inquiries before that pup is resold.

We all have our way to do our business, but I don't think it's fair to judge others who choose to do things different from you. What works for one may not work for another and vice versa.

As for this person, I would NOT refund her deposit, nor would I sell her puppy. She told you she could not take the puppy, therefore, she forfeits her deposit. I would have no further contact with her. Simply block her email address.

What do you want this person's money for anyway? I am sure you don't need it.

You say "I have accepted a deposit for a litter that is planned for a few months from now."

For pity sake, give them their money back. Try to remember the Golden Rule.

Beyond Frustrating, how were you burned? She didn't bail at "the last minute".

"I am thinking that I should be keeping the deposit because that is my policy and like many other breeders who have been burned, I want to dissuade people from reserving a puppy and then baling out at the last minute."

Yes, how were you burned? Your litter is several months out. You haven't even confirmed your girl is pregnant yet? What if she is NOT pregnant? Do you expect all the families that have given deposits to hang around until you breed again?
Give these people their money back and move on. You still have months and months to find and get to know another family.
Frankly I am amazed that any family would agree to such a policy when the bitch is even in whelp yet.
Ridiculous what some people will agree to

As a matter of fact, we have many calls from families looking for puppies. I am going to warn families of your policy and make them aware that this is exactly the type of breeder that they shouls avoid.
Thanks for the "new one" to add to my list of nutty breeders this litter is months and months away

10-4

I agree with you wholeheartedly Disbelief and 10-4. What are these breeders thinking. This policy is absurd.

We do accept money prior to knowing a litter is on the way. This is simply to know who is serious they want one of our puppies and who is a shopper. Otherwise I would have a 500 sheet notebook filled with 'please let me know when you have xxx puppies' making zillions of phone calls wasting my time.

HOWEVER we do not call it a deposit. It is an application fee. I call people off of that list when puppies are born, in order of application and accept deposits from there. Application has about 9 points, but clearly states we reserve the right to refuse sale to anyone for any reason. That was the wording suggested by our attorney when we drafted these. Another point on the application form is we reserve the right to hold back any puppy for ourselves at anytime prior to them going home.

Honestly? Sounds like the type of person I wouldn't want to be dealing with any more.

I would personally refund the deposit and call it good.

Some people (and some things) aren't worth the extra gray hairs.

Application fees? Are you serious? Are these fees non refundable? Does everyone that pays you an application fee get a puppy? I can think of many other solutions to your "500 sheet notebook" problem. So much for "love of the breed".

This is certainly not worth the hassle if she is out collecting dogs, just send her a cheque back and be done with it. If she is an email pest, block the senders address.
Next time, use a deposit contract.

I think that whether you accept deposits or not and regardless of how much paperwork (deposit contracts, sales contracts, etc.), there are always going to be situations to address on a case by case basis when it comes to puppy clients. In my opinion I think you should send her deposit back and be done with it. It doesn't seem worth it to invest the time it will take to fight over it, avoiding her calls and emails and possibly ending up in court, when you could be spending that time enjoying your pups all the more. JMO

Good luck and aloha,
Kim

Boy I thought i'd heard it all too but that sure does take the cake! Sounds like we have some millers here on this board ewwwwwww!
Aloha,
jackie

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Replying to:

Application fees? Are you serious? Are these fees non refundable? Does everyone that pays you an application fee get a puppy? I can think of many other solutions to your "500 sheet notebook" problem. So much for "love of the breed".

I imagine the reason for accepting deposits is to secure owners for the puppies to be born. Since the litter isn't even born yet and you have plenty of time to get another buyer for your puppy, why not refund the money and be done with her. With such persistence on both parts, this could go on forever. Keeping a deposit makes sense if you are going to be forced to feed the animal for an extended period of time before finding a buyer but in this case, I think you could still easily find a home for an unborn litter. Selling puppies is getting harder and harder, but we still don't want our puppies in the wrong hands even if it means giving up a deposit.

With the direction this thread has turned I wasn't planning on even responding again but I do have to straighten out one misunderstanding.

1. I am not suggesting that I have been burned by this person... I was talking about being burned in past situations and that is why I now require a deposit to hold a reservation spot when people choose to reserve a puppy in advance.

2. EVERY deposit is refunded in the event that the bitch is not pregnant or there are not enough puppies to go around. I normally only take 5-6 deposits in advance so it is unusual for me not to fill each reservation when I have planned a litter. I do not just collect deposits and call them non-refundable. I accept deposits when I have a litter planned and they will not be refunded if someone buys a puppy somewhere else instead of waiting for the litter they have reserved from. I do not force people to take a puppy they don't want... I try to weed out people who are still shopping around.

3. I do have a deposit contract. This person was well aware of the fact that by placing a deposit down to hold a reservation spot this far in advance she risked losing her deposit if she changed her mind later.

4. This seemed like a great home to begin with. A little needy but very good. I have spent months emailing back and forth with this woman, answering questions, sending information, researching, etc. Probably in excess of 20 hours on her alone. That is one of the reasons I don't want to give back the deposit.

I am really quite amazed at how many people seem to seek out a post that gives them the opportunity to tear into someone. I am especially disappointed with someone who has been breeding for more than 20 years (as I have) who has nothing better to do than judge and condemn someone else's reservation practices just because they are different from their own. And to call someone a puppy miller because they require a deposit???

This is a real shock to me. I came hear to hopefully get some encouragement and support at a time that I was feeling discouraged and frustrated. Some of the nastiest comments came from people I have spoken with in the past but did not know who I was because I decided to post this anonymously. I feel more stung by the condemnation from some of the people on this forum (people that I had previously respected) than from the situation that drove me here to begin with.

Wow. Sorry I asked.

I'm sorry but I did have to put a huge deposit on my kennel and it's not even manufactured yet LOL the contractor needs to order the materiasl... I also put a huge deposit on an oil painting that is not even in the works because the painter needs to buy supplies LOL... Yes we do have to give deposits sometimes.

I do take deposits because when I plan a breeding it costs money for stud fees, breeding, progesterone, etc and I have had many people bail out on me when litter arrived, saying they found elsewhere because they were tired of waiting, 2 months was too long... they couldn't wait! Then is when I started to take deposits and by golly once I get those deposits those clients stuck around! They all of a sudden became patient enough ;)

This being said, I would absolutely refund a deposit to someone who cancelled and acted this way, yet with a nice note speaking my mind attached to the non-refundable agreement. Something along the lines of: "Since I am no longer wanting to deal with someone who I doubt could care for a pup according to the behaviour I have witnessed, here is your money back and have a nice life".

If you were looking for support rather than feedback, why didn't you just say that in the beginning? Then all of the details of the situation would be unnecessary and you probably would not have received some of the responses you received. What you asked for was input as to whether you were wrong to stick to your guns, and from what I can see a large number of posters provided their input - just give the money back.

Ditto

I don't think the "miller" part was directed at you...was directed at the "500 page" maybe's.

Look, if you don't feel you should give the deposit back...don't. She cancelled and that's that. Had she waited she would have gotten one of your pups but SHE chose to "adopt" 2 others, not you, I'm sure you gave an approx. time frame for whelping and a "place" on the list as far as sex, color, etc. That is YOUR practice, you stick to your guns on this one honey, I've seen all kinds, and those are the kinds that do that crap all the time, spoiled, inconsiderate, wasteful and flip. As far as she knows you would be more than willing to see her in court and let the judge decide, small claims is not expensive nor much of a hassel. It's usually cut and dry and SHE cancelled..period, none of that yeah, I want a puppy, no maybe not, yeah, I want it? BULL... The contract is binding in any state.

Be sure and tell her now that any comunication should be done in writing.

Sorry you are dealing with this unfortunate situation. Some breeders don't take advance deposits, others do. The important thing is to have a clearly written deposit agreement. It might be easier to give her the money back, but you need to do what ever seems fair to you. You might consider returning half the deposit to settle the issue.

"Normally I would just refund a deposit in a situation that I had any second thoughts about a person but this situation is different in that she already cancelled her reservation and I feel it is a matter of principal now"

Give her back her money. Sounds like you are holding onto it because you are just pissed off (but choose to call it a matter of principal)and your actions are exaserbating this situation as much as the harrassing woman. You already stated you wouldn't see a puppy to this woman now, so just give her back her money and just end this situation now.

Please tell us who you are, dying to know so I can tell inquiring families NOT to go to you.

I've seen the deposit debate many times here and I have to ask, why is it such a big deal? If you don't take deposits on your puppies, good for you! But why be so nasty to people that do? I mean really, stating that you wish you knew who this person was so you could warn people to stay away simply because they take deposits before a litter is born? That is ludicrous! Just because you don't agree with someone's policy regarding payment for puppies does in no way make them a puppy mill or bad breeder. But what I'm inferring from your ridiculous notions is that payment policies are more important than breeding practices? That's nice, really nice. I take deposits in this manner and I've never had a problem so I see no reason to do it any other way. If you don't just so you don't have these types of problems, that's your choice. Just as it is my choice to do it the other way. How dare you say that alone makes anyone a breeder to steer clear of!

To the original poster, I understand your dilemma to a certain extent, but honestly, just give this woman her money back. You don't want her to have one of your puppies and they haven't even been conceived yet so you're not out anything. I don't see the issue with making exceptions to your policy in certain situations. I've done it before and would do it again if I felt the need to.

In order to recover on this one you will have to show compensable damages. Is emailing back and forth a compensable damage? Perhaps if you were a lawyer who gets paid for his words, but for a seller of puppies....I doubt it. Say you were a landlord who took a deposit for an apartment months in advance in anticipation of a vacancy in a highly desireable area. You spend hours talking to that potential tenant only to find out that they can't wait any longer and they bail still months before the move in date. The landlord can easily find a new tenant as the area is hot on demand and he/she has not lost anything. Talking to or emailing people is a part of selling and that's why we don't get charged when we spend hours talking to realtors or car salesmen. If you start off selling so far in advance you have to expect that and maybe somethng you said in those 20 hours of communication made the buyer nervous that you wern't going to have a puppy for her at the end of her long wait anyway.

"I have spent months emailing back and forth with this woman, answering questions, sending information, researching, etc. Probably in excess of 20 hours on her alone. That is one of the reasons I don't want to give back the deposit."

You are right, the miller part wasn't directed at him/her.... and I use my real name and if people get irked with me because I am truthful and honest about what I say then so be it I still think it is totally wrong to take money for something you can no way gaurantee, with so many bitches nowdays having trouble concieving or losing puppies it is crazy to take money from people before you know you have pups on the ground or that they will all make it till 8 weeks for that matter as lots of strangles, HOD, parvo and other problems can occur before you get to the 8 week age so they can go to their new homes and in the meantime you are holding and using someone's money which isn't fair.
Aloha,
Jackie

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Replying to:

I don't think the "miller" part was directed at you...was directed at the "500 page" maybe's.

Look, if you don't feel you should give the deposit back...don't. She cancelled and that's that. Had she waited she would have gotten one of your pups but SHE chose to "adopt" 2 others, not you, I'm sure you gave an approx. time frame for whelping and a "place" on the list as far as sex, color, etc. That is YOUR practice, you stick to your guns on this one honey, I've seen all kinds, and those are the kinds that do that crap all the time, spoiled, inconsiderate, wasteful and flip. As far as she knows you would be more than willing to see her in court and let the judge decide, small claims is not expensive nor much of a hassel. It's usually cut and dry and SHE cancelled..period, none of that yeah, I want a puppy, no maybe not, yeah, I want it? BULL... The contract is binding in any state.

Be sure and tell her now that any comunication should be done in writing.

"Why do people take non refundable deposits anyway?"

I'll give you an example. I had a deposit on a pup and the day before they were to pick her up at 8 weeks of age they emailed me that they had changed their mind.

The day before that I had gotten an email about how excited they were and couldn't wait to pick her up.

This was the last female in the litter and because i had a deposit on her I had turned 2 other buyers away.

I explained this to them and that their deposit was non refundable. They accepted that. That deposit payed for this pups next 2 series of vaccinations that I had to take care of at my vet until I found her the proper home.

On the other hand I had a deposit on a female and when I told the buyer she had a recessed vulva they were afraid to deal with it so I refunded their deposit.

It all depends on the circumstances.

I do take deposits before the litter is born but not until I know the bitch is pregnant. This puts the people on the list as to who gets first pick of black female or whatever they are interested in.

I'm sorry you are going thru all of this but I agree with others that you should just give her back her deposit in these circumstances and if she ever contacts you in the future just tell her you don't have a pup available.

I understand the principal and how you feel, but is it worth all the time, aggrivation and headache that is sure to come?

I would also like to add that, for example, if I have deposits on 4 black females and I only have 3 in the litter, the #4 person on the list gets their deposit back.

I am one of the breeders that does take deposits in advance too, also non refundable. I have had situations similar and I dont argue with the client. I refund. Sometimes it's really not worth it. I prefer to let them go about their business and protect my reputation, rather then fight about whatever amount the deposit is. Now that she's saying she wants a puppy, no way. Write a letter, cancel the entire transaction, refund her money, be done with it

NO...you tell us who YOU are! You nut.

You've had 30 replies to this thread...good luck..now everyone should drop it, it's turning into one of those threads that gets way off track.

So how's the weather?

As others have said before, I would just refund the deposit and move on. Every state is different, but for the most part they all have consumer laws that we all have to abide by. Just because we have a contract that states the things that I have seen in some contracts, and are signed by both parties, if that is in conflict with state laws, then I think you have a big problem. The typical contract on hip and elbow guarantees that requires the buyer to give back the puppy in order to receive a refund, is not valid by state law in many states. I personally went through this on a dog that I had purchased. It took 10 months to get my purchase price back, and I still kept the dog, not letting the breeder put her down.

We interview buyers in person first, both parties think it over for a day or so. At that point we will take a refundable deposit at that point. We don't cash the check, we don't tell them of course. After seeing them a couple of times during the puppies first six weeks, and making sure that they are who they appear to be, we tell them that their deposit turns non-refundable at 6 -7 weeks if they still want the puppy. Still we don't cash the check until the end, just in case. By cashing the check, I think that there is more of inferred sale, than not cashing it. We still would probably refund that deposit at the end. We don't want our puppies to go into a home that has any doubt at all!

It's sad and I'm curious, why has this thread become so judgemental. Some of you are judging whomever this is on a business practise that quite frankly is not any body elses business. With all due respect to everyone, let's judge based on certifications and proper breeding, NOT by how they do or do not conduct personal business having to do with deposits or sales.

This is the first and only place I've seen grown women talk to one another like this...and YES, I know you are ALL women..am I wrong?? BTW I'm female too and I'm ashamed of you all. My honey got on here and read some of this stuff and just shook his head.

how much do yo take for a deposit

No matter what kind of deposit it was. Before or after litter. Be fair, give it back to her and be finished with her. Why a question at all. Be fair. How would you feel ?

There is no need for you to explain yourself. For the most part, everyone is doing a good job of ignoring the posts made by the anonymous troublemakers that just like to try to start something. Any reputable breeder on this list, has run into similar situations, and who cares what the troublemakers think... Imagine being married to one of these people!!! God help whoever is...

In answer to your question, I would give the deposit back just to be rid of the person and I would include a note explaining that you you are refunding the deposit because you have decided that they are not the type of people that you want to deal with.