I know we have alot invested in these litters and have dreams of having that perfect show champion in there. I am awful with staying close and being so careful, but reading some of the notes from the last few days made me wonder. Do we leave anything to mother nature anymore ? Sleeping in the whelping box, couldn't we smother one. Taking off work for 3 weeks, staying up all night for weeks ? And I do sleep by the box, on a bed, for a week. I have been breeding for 20 plus, but some of the even more experience breeders, just curious, what do you all think and do ?

I have read the posts and as usual with this forum, I find those that respond are the less experienced and less knowing breeders. I have been breeding over 30 years and have yet to take a mother away from her litter. If one of my bitches is not willing or able to be a good mother she is spayed and placed in a pet home. I do not have the time or the energy to monitor the mother non stop. I do puppy stimulation on all my litters, make sure the bedding is clean and comfortable then make sure the Mom is able and willing to do her job. My bitches have two or three litters after their show career then are spayed and retired.
As a breeder one owes it to the breed to keep problems out. If the mothers are not good mothers their daughters inherit poor mothering skills. To make it less work for me I only keep those that please me and are true Labradors in temperament. I do not have to keep those that are extra work. Problems are neutered and placed. Few established breeders work so hard at litters as those who respond on this forum. You truly chase away those novices by your overzealous ways.
It is difficult to take any advise from someone that does not sign their name. I know that and agree. Flame suit on and I know my comment will offend many.

I agree with Established Breeder. I have been breeding for for 40+ (not just Labs) years and have never slept next to or in the whelping box, or even in the same room, except when whelping. I make sure my mom and pups are clean and dry, and fed, but don't spend 24-7 with them. Don't get me wrong, I do pay attention to what is going on. If I have a problem pup, I tend to the situation, but my moms do a good job with their pups. I don't go looking for trouble.My mothers are allowed the freedom of staying with their pups until they go. I don't have to wean them. They wean them. It is so much fun watching Mother teach her babies. I do enjoy interacting with the pups when they become responsive to me.

My theory is "If the good Lord wants them to survive, they will." You an take all the precautions in the world and what will be will be.

there is also the belief that "God helps those who help themselves"! I differ in my opinion...some moms are new and sometimes anxious and their anxiety may make them restless in the box. I stay with mine (in a bed nearby--not in the box) for about 5-7 days until I can no longer do it! I don't want to risk a puppies life just because I went to bed. I don't think these are bad moms, just inexperienced. I would be more apt to leave an experienced mom earlier. JMO

I must admit, helping to whelp 8 litters does not make me a long time breeder. I guess my attitude about watching over my puppies during the crucial 2 to 3 weeks may seem a tad anal but I figure, I brought these puppies into the world and it's my responsibility to make sure my girls don't accidently lay on their babies. I don't think it makes them a dumb, non caring mom who doesn't have any sense or business raising a litter of puppies. There are bad moms who don't care about their babies and don't have the maternal instincts but I would say they are rare.

My girls are all big girls so when there are a litter of 16 oz puppies scooting around in the whelping pool and the pups worm their way around the dam or she accidently lays on one, that doesn't make her a bad mother but it makes me a bad caretaker should I be so ignorant to think that I can walk away, go to work, go shopping and ASSUME my dams will handle everything that first couple weeks.

I would never breed a bitch if she was not tolerant of puppies. I test my girls around other puppies and if she starts snapping at them and being aggressive, then she is spayed. This has happened a few times over the years with puppies I have purchased from other breeders and was so sad to see a 2 yr old dam react so nasty to small puppies.

I'd be more concerned with keeping dams in my breeding program who are consistant problem whelpers than giving too much love and watching over my litters that first couple weeks but that is another subject altogether.

Don't you just "LOVE" it when they get something and run circles around you.."come here boy, here boy, give it to me boy, boy I'm gonna...." They are Retrievers.

Excellent response

wrong place...suppose to go in puppy steeling??

I agree...I can't miss 2 or 3 weeks of work to stay with puppies, I would be homeless. Nor could I sleep with a litter of puppies in a box on the floor. I guess I've been extremely lucky and have had good mommies and set up correctly they do their job well. I would think that that would contribute to unwanted habits and sleep deprivation for dam also.

How does a dog or any animal in the wild manage to not lay on her young? Where does this abhorrent behavior come from? From what I'm reading on this forum this seems common in home bred dogs.

Dogs are very much domesticated over hundreds of years. I would hate to think that our breeding bitches are compared to dogs in the wild. I would bet that even wild bitches as you call them, are not perfect dams who have never laid on their puppies or killed them.

I don't sleep in my girl's whelping box or pool. There is a queen size bed beside the whelping box. My girls have always enjoyed having me close to them that first few weeks. They hae always wanted me close to them during the entire labor and whelping stages as well. I'm sure they could go off in the wild and have their babies just fine (NOT).

I totally agree with Gail, I have to just shake my head on most of these posts.Sorry.... and have wondered does anyone let mother nature take over.?instinct?
I have also been breeding since the mid 80's . Yes I do keep a close eye on my new mothers,My other dams who have had a couple litters are veterns to this. We have both a whelping box and pools.

My dams also wean there pups I don't.. I have few who wean early and another who doesn't until 5 wks.
she so loves her pups.All are alert to where those pups are at all times.I Have never slept in or near the whelping box,although I can be a light sleeper.

I never remove the dams from the pups. They are with them and among them till they are leaving to new homes. I make sure the pups have clean bedding and are all nursing well and the dams are taking care of fed well.Although I have 2 home based businesses and I'm here alot. I don't sit for hours monitoring the whelping box. I look when I'm passing through the whelping area.

Reading all these posts, I have to wonder if people are not over complicating things.

I had a bitch that needed to be watched constantly. She was whining and nervous and fussed over the puppies all the time. She would jump in the box and flop right down. I snatched many a puppy from underneath her.

I have had other bitches that got into the whelping box, clearly sized up the situation and then sat down in an empty spot. Actually this is more typical.

It seems unlikely to me that all these 3 week people have nervous bitches. This requires some careful observation and common sense. If your bitch is doing well after a couple of days, there is no reason to hover over her for 3 weeks. She will sense your nervousness and it won't be good for her.

As for the nervous bitch, if she isn't in the ribbons at specialties or Ch material, it would probably be best to retire her from the whelping box.

My litters are whelped in my room so that I can be right there during the night for the first few weeks. Do I lose sleep? Of course I do. I wake up with every little squeak. But isn't that part of our job???

Everyone has what they feel comfortable with when it comes to the lives of their dogs/pups and how they are bred and raised.

We each do what we feel is best and truthfully, those who are "less experienced and less knowing breeders" may change how they do things as they become "established breeders" as the years pass and they learn more about what to expect and what personal experience leads them to believe.


The only thing that bugs me is that being a "less experienced and less knowing breeder" myself, I kinda got the idea that maybe my thoughts and ideas are not as valuable.
Maybe they aren't to some, and that is fine, we should ALL be taking a grain of salt with EVERYTHING on any boards unless we truly are familiar with the source, that to me is just common net-sense, but then I have been an internet geek for many many years and may look it it differently....but no matter how many years I may have been a breeder in Labs, I am still a person with a life, experiences, and even a penchant for research and I like to help.

While some may see this as a two sided deal...one side being the "less experienced and less knowing breeders"asking the questions and the other as the"established breeders" giving the answers, I liken the forum to a study group where yes, there may be a teacher at any given time,wandering around, answering the questions they get to here and there... maybe even a few teachers, but in general it is really a bunch of students exchanging thoughts and sifting through things to try to help each other figure out the answers....In the end it is up to us students to have a brain about figuring out the validity of the answers we find by evaluating the reliability of those answers....where did they come from? A book, a website, a breeder we respect, a breeder who is anon....either way, I like to have all the options open to me, who knows what I might need to know!

I actually have not posted much to this forum although I have been reading it a long time....I had an opinion that it was too "rough and tumble" for someone like me who is certainly a little on the sensitive side, and I kinda dismissed it for a while..but there ARE some really wonderful people here that I WANT to interact with, and told myself...just go ahead and post and share...meet new people and stop being silly


No offense is meant to anyone, I just hate for myself or anyone else in my shoes to feel like they don't have as much to offer here, it might just be in a different way, thats all.
Annie

I sleep on the couch in the kitchen for the first week as pups are whelped right off the kitchen in the laundry room.

Then I go back to the bedroom and sleep with a baby monitor. The monitor also alerts my bitch when her pups are hungry and she will go down and feed the pups and then come back up to bed.

I sleep in a bed near the whelping box the first two weeks because I've read so many horror stories about pups being smothered! In my former life (pre Forums), I slept upstairs and my b**ch slept solo with her pups. It's not my girl who's the nervous Nellie, it's ME!

The Forums are wonderful places to gather information, but they can be downright scary sometimes!

Barb

I'm very particular, all this, all that, litter box, sleeping next to box for a week,etc Then, my neighbor's dog to her surprise turns up prego, has a litter of 11 pups all by herself in a wire dog crate and all 11 pups survive and mom doing fine. They did nothing special and her mom and pups are fine. Here I am with dark circles, back ache and thinking why am I working so hard?

You are working so hard to ensure your puppies don't get squished.

Your friend whose bitch whelped her 11 puppies all by herself may not be so lucky the next time. It's nice that everything worked out for her though.

maybe....these breeders have so many dogs that they really don't have the relationship with their moms-to-be that they think they do. Maybe constantly hovering over the whelping box makes the labs nervous and she quickly enters the box instead of eyeing the situtation before laying down. I haven't heard of any problems from owners of one or two dogs laying on their babies.

You've got to be kidding me ? That seems like an incredibly judgemental comment to make. The whole subject just depends on the individual person and the individual dog in my eyes. Just like we don't all have the same practices in our parenting, marriages etc... viva la difference!

............WHAT?!?

Well, there is a flip side though.

A breeder once told me I take too much care with my girls and their newborn litters.

Then she had a litter.

I was disgusted by the fact that the puppies were pretty well neglected. Two puppies out of that litter died because 'They just didn't want to suckle' and two more because they were smothered by a nine year old second time mother.

The puppies were never offered water except what was in the food, and thus there was less mess to clean. Puppies were small and the keepers she kept are still small, at over 2 years old.

You would be shocked to learn who this breeder is, as they are well known.

So for those who don't take more then a passing glance at your puppies every few hours or are strictly there to clean up after them, how are the puppies worth the asking price if you have not made it your job to keep them alive and stimulated with attention?

Seems kind of neglectful to me.

When I have a litter coming, they are whelped in our bedroom, and stay there for 3 weeks, then move into the spare room with a baby monitor.


So that

LOVE the response from "Established Breeder".
In my 21 years,(but not tons of litters), I have never had a bad mother. I peek at the pups ALOT (several times an hour) the first few days, but after the whelping is over and momma is cleaned up and dried, she takes over completely. She is so exhausted after the whelp, she sleeps like a rock for a good 6-8 hours. She has earned her rest and privacy. I have never slept near the box. I also wouldn't keep a problem mother in my breeding program. My girls have been nothing but wonderful with their babies. So far, so good.

Well most, but not all breeders, have many dogs that don't spend the majority of their lives in the house. Now prior to whelping a bitch is moved into the house surrounded by other people who probably spend even less time with her then her caregiver. The house is not the usual comfortable place she is used to. Strange noises, smells and activity. I'm suggesting that this could make her nervous. If she were a house dog in the first place she would not feel so anxious to return to her pups because of her anxiety and accidentally lay on one in her hurried state instead of slowly noticing where her babies are. I think if your dogs live outside and you bring them in to whelp you probably have to look out for them more because of this. I'm not accusing anyone of mistreating their dogs, just trying to look at it from the dogs point of view. Dogs don't think or react like people do.

Melissa - This does not suprise me at all, after all the horror stories I have heard from long time breeders.
My babies are also whelped and stay in my bedroom for 3 weeks.
Then they are moved down to the main floor of our home.
I once leased out a bitch to a "friend" who is a "long time" breeder. She complained daily that my bitch was laying on and burying her pups and that she was losing sleep because of my bad momma. Awwwww, too bad....
She lost 4 puppies.
This was my bitches 2nd litter and her first I had no problems at all.
A year later now we currently have her 3rd litter on the ground and 6 weeks old. I lost zero puppies and she was a dynamite mom for me once again.

I think you're giving yourself to much credit for the litters success. The poor girl was probably filled with anxiety and nervousness being in a strange enviroment.

This may make you laugh but think about this, some people can't even have a BM unless they are in their own homes (no public places).

Same here...I have a whelping room in my home...for the mom and pups ONLY...I take the utmost care of them without invading. She has a very nice whelping box, climate controlled surroundings, a radio that plays softly and a nice bed for her to get away on when she tires of laying with the pups. I do check on her often but do not take over..I have seen other breeders enter a room of theirs and the first thing momma does is lie down hard and hunker to avoid the "messing" with her pups... they move them, turn them over, move the mother around, push and pull? I don't get this kind of "care".
If giving water only in the puppies food as one poster said then that IS neglect, but I don't see where the comparison comes into play here.

Well, now that I could see happening. My bitches always whelp in the same room where they have always slept from pups. My whole pack is in this room, mind you, my pack is not over 8. Mom gets her own special area blocked from view of everyone and all my bitches have done quite well this way.

Actually I doubt it since we moved between the 1st and 3rd litters
Plus my bitch stayed with the lessee for several months prior to the whelping.
I think it comes down to they pick up on our own personalities and anxiety levels.
A calm person makes for a calm dog. A nervous, loud or neglectful person makes for a bad situation.

Thanks for the feed back from all. I just read the one note about sleeping in the whelping box and taking the mother away from pups and thought to myself. WE HAVE GONE TO FAR. I will give the mom more of a break next litter myself. My mom does always have a nice quite room of her own in the house. We might be making them a little crazy.

As a mother myself, I can certainly vouch for wanting some peace and quiet with a newborn!!! With each child I had I couldn't wait to get back home in my own bed and my own surroundings. I guess our girls are a lot like us after all.

Mean't to add that I always appreciated help and TLC with new babies, but quiet time to myself was always a treasure

And for the breeders that absolutely must have an easy whelping bitch b/c they can't handle a whelping for whatever reason is that fair too? To place a bitch b/c you personally can't handle if something goes off one time? This does happen with some breeders of not just Labs.

Giving birth in animals or people there are things that can happen or go wrong. We must be prepared to intervene or we are not being responsible. These dogs are not in the wild, WE bred the litter, it was not a whoopsy litter usually and we owe it to our bitch and her pups to do the right thing from whelping on.

Of course pups are squashed in the wild, if half a litter survives in the wild it's alot.

I think a full 8-9 days is enough time to sleep right near the litter. At that age they can move away pretty well. Most pups get crushed during the day beleive it or not. Not at night. So we can't cook dinner or check on the other dogs for 3 weeks? That I don't agree with, there is a mid-point for all of this. Responsible but also not crazy neurotic. JmHO For those that keep pups in your room you are smart ! You're not on a fold up bed near your pups. You're in your own. They moved in for a while.

If a girl has a hard time with her pups and you do have to intervene constantly then I think it would be right to have her spayed and placed. It costs just as much to care for an excellent female as it does for a so so female, an excellent female would probably be less costly, and we all know how much this hobby costs.. and how that female takes care of her puppies can and does affect any others in her litter chosen to be breeders, not always but sometimes. As you just stated there are SO MANY things that can go wrong so why have something like that against you from the git go? No one said NOT to intervene when necessary but don't stack the cards against yourself.