I'm curious as to why you proges. test, ultrasound, x-ray and also AI and all the fees in that even when the stud is close by? Hasn't nature been doing "it" naturally for centuries? and I am curious as to how many do all of this?

I try to stay as natural as possible. I don't do ultrasounds or x-rays as I know by the time my girl is due that she is prego. I don't AI or progesterone if the stud is near-by. I can't bring myself to let my girl whelp all by herself though. I just feel I need to lend a hand there and give her moral support.

If the stud is local and I have the luxury of time, I do not do progesterone, etc. If I have to drive and leave the bitch for a few days, I want to narrow the window so she isn't there longer than needed--wasting the stud owner's time and my money boarding her.

If I am going to surgically implant, you bet I do the progesterone, etc. I have x-rayed twice, when I thought there might be problems to get an exact head count. Don't make a regular practice of it.

Do not ultrasound regularly either. They are pregnant or they aren't : )

MK

rarely have I been fortunate enough to find what I am looking for in a stud and have him be close by.

I agree...so much of the expences that are being thrown out there are not necessary..yet when you see pups for $700 it is explained away as they are a BYB or PM and that is what I'm so sick of, I know this as I called a couple of you and that's EXACTLY what you told me!! Anyone that pays $480 for a spay on a female is nuts IMO...I just had one of my girls spayed and it was $130, Conneticut or not...I would drive to avoid paying that, it's robbery...hell that'll pay for a nice weekend away. Also the shots and worming that was quoted in a past post...I know what all of that costs. To have my dogs OFA on hips AND elbows is $166 plus OFA fee, this is charged 1 time. I don't have the litter cerfs done as the parents are cleared, again I don't feel that is necessary. I don't do pre-lims either, I want confirmation at breeding age, period and I have a pretty good eye on hips as I'm sure most of you breeders out there do too. It just upsets me that some of you breeders out there would sit and condem another breeder without thought and on assumptions. I wouldn't say s#^t about another breeder if I had a mouth full of it. I have been breeding for years and have only had 1 dog come back with a hip issue and she was out of OFAE parents and that's a fact. I've had no other issues, health or otherwise and I'm probaly jinxing myself now, but as you can probably tell I am UPSET. AND anyone of you that claims they don't advertise on the net or paper...if you have a web site, you are advertising on the net AND in newspapers.

WOW, seems you have a problem with others, And with Connecticut in general. I am just curious as why?

Is that what you think from what I just wrote??

**Hasn't nature been doing "it" naturally for centuries? **

Yes, with the resulting injuries, disease and a high mortality rates.

On another note: The term hobby breeder seems to indicate the hobby is breeding. If that was true, I'd be in the black -- buy two dogs and make ten - pretty simple. But my hobby is showing, obedience and field work - very expensive and time consuming. Breeding a dog that excels in those areas is part of that, but I am not breeding so to have something to do with my spare time. It's semantics I know, but wish there was a better term. Show Breeders, maybe?

I tell callers to look for a breeder of accomplishments. It means they have invested much in their sport and their dogs and have proven their dogs and demonstrated their knowledge of the breed. It's easier than trying to define the difference between a BYB and a Hobby Breeder.

>>I wouldn't say s#^t about another breeder if I had a mouth full of it. ...I am UPSET. AND anyone of you that claims they don't advertise on the net or paper...if you have a web site, you are advertising on the net AND in newspapers.<<

Awww... someone needs a hug!

Dian

thanks so much for sharing. your warm and fuzzy feelings. i know we all appreciate it and don't mind that you take out such hostility on us no problem
please be doll and tell us what doctor use you that charges you only $166 hip and elbow exray and only $130 for a spay. i will at least check him out
as far not CERFing your puppies that is your choice but don't start sniping at those of us who choose to do this. things pop up cleared CERF on parents don't mean pups are always 100%
and just to get your blook pressure up i am sure we all will still continue to tell families cheap puppies are from BYB have a nice day take your meds dearie

"Anyone that pays $480 for a spay on a female is nuts IMO..."

Dear Curious,
I pay for the competence of the vet, and if they charge $400+ for a spay, that's what I pay. This isn't the time to shop around for the best price. I once had a vet that "forgot" to tie off a uterine artery stump properly, and my Canadian Champion bitch almost bled out on the table.
Unfortunately, many of the Western CT vets charge this price for a spay and more. I know C-sections at my regular vet are around $1500-$2000. The emergency clinic starts at that price and runs higher. Although I do use an experienced vet some distance away, whose prices are extremely reasonable, I can't always depend on her either so I use a vet closer to home for much of my vetting.
My vet will only give me pit, dopram and other whelping supplies once I have done an x-ray and have an accurate headcount. Cost: $150, not including medication. She is the technically best in the area for hips and elbows. Cost for finals: ~$300 including OFA. Go to the next maybe not so competent vet, same price. All the vets in this area charge around the same for vetting. It is what it is.
Another local breeder had a pup require emergency surgery for an intestinal problem. Cost: $5000 at a top flight emergency clinic in SW CT.
This is why our prices are higher. We can't be driving 70 miles routinely to save money on vetting or other costs. And, yes, progesterone tests, AI expenses they are all there and real.

I was formally the newsletter editor for my Lab Club and did an editorial a couple of years back about my singleton litter. I added up all the costs (including a c-section at distant clinic with a very good vet which was very reasonably priced) and he cost me $1445 to get him to 2 weeks old. Never mind his shots food, etc. It is what it is. So those that charge $1200+ for a pup are just trying to get back what they put into it.

Dr. Gregory Faulkner in Madison, Ohio. I'll even go as far as to give you his number. 440-428-5335. He's a good man. Everything I quoted was from breeders that I called and e-mailed on this forum as I was curious as to why your expences were so high. Now I know...thanks so much.

I do understand ER visits, that's not what I'm talking about at all. I was just floored at the responses I got from so many breeders that I called and even now the remarks I'm getting just slays me it is the same attitude. By now, everyone knows I am a breeder and know the costs yet am still being told otherwise and being ridiculed...it's OK I can take it, I know exactly why it's happening. Let's just drop it and move on.

Dear " Curious as to why,"

Why are you so curious and why do you care what others do? If you are comfortable with what you pay for your vet care that's great! Why are you bothered by what others happen to spend or charge for their pups? Can't we all do our own thing and respect each
others differences?

I have been amazed to learn how many breeders do not CERF their litters just because the parents are clear. Just because the parents are clear does not mean the litter will clear. My ACVO found non-hereditary melanoma in the eye of one of my puppies (both parents were clear); this would never have been noticed without the CERF exam. This saved the original puppy buyer a lot of heartache down the road, and I was able to place this puppy in a home that knew all of the risks and was willing to give this puppy what she needed.

I wasn't going to reply because I'm a pet owner, so I hope noone minds my thoughts. I have two labs from well known breeders up north. I'm in Virginia. I paid $1000 and $1500 respectively and was not bothered by those prices. Our two previous labs (one from pet shop, one from byb before I educated myself) while living long lives had health issues. I was willing to pay whatever price for a quality bred dog. Having lived in Ny and NJ the cost of everything up there is astounding, so it makes perfect sense that vet bills up there would make the cost of pups more. Connecticut is a very expensive state to live in and am not surprised at all with what the vets charge. I have to say in SE virginia ( an hour from Va Beach) the average price is $240 for a spay and $160 for a neuter. Xrays in general run $75 on average. Office visits around here just went up to $42. It all depends on where you live as to the prices. The cost of living is cheaper down here. JMO, so I hope I haven't made anyone angry.

Not sure why this says Hobby Breeder. Don't really think most of us think that way. Think most of us are so deicated to breeding a wonderful healthy Lab to show and have fun with. We have alot invested in our dogs and that is why we Prog test. Why leave a female somewhere for days to wear she and the stud out. Why not x-ray and make sure you have a litter and not 2 huge puppys that might end up killing your female in birth. Don't think any of this is a waste of money. I care more for my dogs than the money from a pup ! Think this is a silly question. MHO !

First of all - litter CERFs are done because certain conditions can be present at 7 weeks but then disappear only to reappear at a later age. Try researching RD.
AND...I ALWAYS do prelims. I want to know what I have before I waste TWO good years on it!
You can be upset all you want but griping about how much some pay to whelp a litter, why? It's NOYB!

Must be something in the water in Madison Ohio....

I would like to point out that one can have the eyes examined by an ACVO vet without applying for the CERF certificate. If the ACVO vet has evaluated the eyes as normal with no extenuating conditions, no additional information is gained by applying for a CERF number. I personally have two problems with CERF.

1. They charge a fee for no real information- just a certificate.

2. By issuing a certificate they give the misleading impression that the dog has a permanent clearance. This is especially true in the case of uninformed buyers.

My dogs are ACVO cleared before each breeding and yearly if I have a stud dog that is being used for outside breedings. If anything irregular is found (and I've been lucky in that respect), I do research on it, which might include contacting CERF if appropriate. In one case I literally did research, doing test breedings separate from my regular breeding program to determine whether a problem existed. IMO having the eyes cleared annually by an ACVO vet is as good as having CERF certification and is less misleading to the general public.

>>I would like to point out that one can have the eyes examined by an ACVO vet without applying for the CERF certificate. If the ACVO vet has evaluated the eyes as normal with no extenuating conditions, no additional information is gained by applying for a CERF number.<<

AMEN!!


Dian

My neighbor just had a litter of chocolate labs. Been breeding for years with only hip clearances. Having had a boy affected with PRA, I tried to explain the importance of Optigen testing and ACVO evaluations, but it fell on deaf ears. This guy has bred probably 120 pups over the years. I feel badly for his puppies and their owners. He said something like, "Don't you think people worry too much and spend too much on doing all this testing?" I said, "No. No."
Oh, well. I'll keep trying to convince him. Just had to vent, I guess. No one else seemed to want to listen.

I agree about submitting to CERF; I should have been more specific in that I have met a lot of breeders who do not do ACVO exams on litters. Just because the parents have been cleared does not mean issues cannot arise out of their offspring.

Well aren't you all lucky you don't live in the UK. If the stud dog is alive and living in the UK and the bitch is also in the UK then NO AI's allowed. If the doner dog is a youngster and it is his first mating NO AI's allowed, he MUST have produced a registered litter by natural mating first. A bitch can be AIed first time up (as long as the doner dog has already produced a registered litter naturally), BUT any resulting bitch pups from that mating MUST go on to produce a registered litter through natural mating. Surgical implants are a big no no unless there is a VERY VERY good reason for it to be done. And I say yeah to them, yes it sounds harsh, but at least they are trying to stop bitches and dogs reproducing that can't reproduce naturally. As for vet fee's, Here I pay $200 for hip and elbow x-rays plus $80 to read,(no prelims) spay $250/ $280, puppy vaccinations $30, eye exam's $60 for the first dog and $25 for the rest. The last c-section I had done was last year and it was $500. I don't live in the UK or the USA.

(warning...ramble below )

I think the issue with our "hobby" is that to do it right, and well, it costs a heck of a lot of money.
For someone like me, one trip to the Potomac for a week, entries, renting a vehicle worthy of the trip and transporting dogs...YIKES thats some real big money!
...meeting all the folks that I talk to on a daily basis in person: Priceless I WILL make it next year darnit!

For those who want to break down the costs dollar for dollar of any particular breeding, or talk about how they know "good and well" that we could pay less for many things we do health wise have it all wrong and don't seem to get the basics of the hobby.

My personal "HOBBY" includes trying to use the latest health care and technology to better not only our breed but my own knowledge. This doesn't usually come with cut rate service providers who want you in and out and don't want to answer alot of questions, let alone do research for you on some obscure issue you want more info on.

First....For the breeder who gets that super healthy trouble free litter of 8 from a mom who free whelps and does great.
Woo Hoo...think that means the breeder made a profit?
What about the last litter of only 4 that was a c-section, had a cleft palate pup and led to the eventual spay of a girl whom she sunk years of work into Championing? Or worse....her death

The lines I have fallen for and am focusing on originate a couple thousand miles away from me, and that is how far away most of the proper studs are from me. Am I supposed to go with a lessor stud to save a buck?
Umm No. That would, imho put me in the group of people breeding just to sell pups. This is not to say there is not a biz end of the breeding hobby, of course there is or none of us would be able to make cross country trips to specialties etc.,(something I cant wait to do myself but have not been able to afford yet!) but there is a big difference between making choices that allow you to follow your dreams regarding your hobby and those that you make that sacrifice your ethics and hobby itself for the sake of business.


I think that those who are so concerned with the costs of our pups have some other issue going on that has nothing to do with others really...

I will charge what the market will bear for my pups and I will do the absolute best possible for them ( personally i think they are worth far more than we could charge, but thats me ...sometimes I will lose money and sometimes I will come out ahead and the money will go right back into my dogs through health care, entries, or maybe to help with the costs of finding a new home that needs to have more land to support my "hobby"...my dream kennel!
Anyone who wants us to "justify" our prices has a very different viewpoint of what is included in this hobby that I, and I presume most other hobby breeders have if all they are figuring is typical clearance expenses and the basic costs of breeding.

Keep in mind of course, that I am not an "old timer" and these are just my thoughts.
Annie

Thers a great article in Augusts issue of O magazine. It breaks down what we spend on our dogs. Also on the last page she talks about losing her 2 yr. old Golden. She choked on a small lightup ball. Very sad and really, in the end, who cares how much a puppy sells for.

It's a hobby if your a hobby breeder. The majority of people who have hobbies don't get paid anything to enjoy doing them. If you're talking $7.50/hr. to hobby, or do something relaxing, then that's pretty good. All hobbies require some degree of work. If you're talking $7.50/hr. for a job, then no, that's not so great.

Someone is paying for your hobby when they buy a puppy from you and they're also paying for a new loved one for you. I think that most people who breed are also interested in a puppy for themselves. That's priceless in itself.

If you have to pay more than $1000 for a pup then chances are you aren't buying from someone who does it just as a hobby, more like an occupation.

I am not so sure I agree with the opinion that a dog must be cabale of breeding naturally.
I think thats silly. What's the difference? Semen is semen, right?

RELAXING??? Obviously you don't maintain a kennel full of dogs if you think a hobby breeder is sitting back and sipping magaritas!!
Whelping and raising a litter is NOT relaxing!!!
Caring for 10-15 dogs on a daily basis, NOT relaxing.
Anyone who thinks it is can come spend a week here. I bet your tune will change.
Also not realxing, the hours and hours of driving to spend 5 minutes in the ring at a dog show, not relaxing.
The heartache when something goes wrong, and it does, a lot, NOT relaxing.
Get your facts straight before you come on here and spout off that we breeders are having a vacation time here. It aint all peaches...

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Replying to:

It's a hobby if your a hobby breeder. The majority of people who have hobbies don't get paid anything to enjoy doing them. If you're talking $7.50/hr. to hobby, or do something relaxing, then that's pretty good. All hobbies require some degree of work. If you're talking $7.50/hr. for a job, then no, that's not so great.

Someone is paying for your hobby when they buy a puppy from you and they're also paying for a new loved one for you. I think that most people who breed are also interested in a puppy for themselves. That's priceless in itself.

If you have to pay more than $1000 for a pup then chances are you aren't buying from someone who does it just as a hobby, more like an occupation.

I really don't have anything to add, don't want to fuel the fire. However, I thought that I needed to add that my vet does final hips/elbow and micro chip for less than $170. As far as I'm concerned, she's one of the best in the state florida. She's also one hell of a repro vet.

A stud dog should be able to breed naturally and why not...is that not part of the whole package, what reason would there be for a dog not to that's what's silly to me. I think Ron White put it best.."my dog follows me around enough". Seman is seman but the route in which you retrieve it should matter and I think the UK has the right idea.

If it's not relaxing then it's not your hobby and I would say you're trying to make it your occupation.

I highly doubt it could ever be my occupation, lol!
I have an occupation already
If breeding, raising and showing dogs is all relaxing, you aren't doing something right!

Maybe you're not doing something right and you need to find a new hobby. You said it all when you said "I highly doubt it could ever be my occupation, lol!" Like maybe if you could be successful enough or if you could make enough money at it, then you could have a new occupation. I enjoy my dog chores.

Good for you, and maybe it is your occupation but I don't care to make a living off my dogs.
I never said I wasn't successful at it. I am. But that doesn't mean it's all roses.
If it is for you, you are living a fantasy and you should get a reality check.
I define successful as winning in the ring, breeding healthy pups and keeping healthy, correct dogs.
What is YOUR defintion?

Sorry, some of these no name posts are seeming a bit inflammatory to me and I am starting to wonder if this is a sincere discussion on their part or just baiting an argument.
We all know that for most of us this is not a mere hobby, but a passion. The word "hobby" is used only because most do not make enough money, nor make decisions for their dogs based on what makes the best economic sense. It is daft to try to pick apart the use of the word when we all know good and well what hobby means in this usage and that it is not putting together model ships in a bottle, but dealing with living beings we love....and you cant blame the people who have been fortunate enough to be able to make enough money doing something well enough to support their hobby. To be good at what you do has nothing to do with being able to make a profit....unless you are measuring accomplishment very differently, and you may well be.

Just an aside...my hubby's hobby is painting these almost obscenely expensive little tiny models...he is creative though and when he does a really good job on something that others admire he often trades the model for several others. Many even paint others models for money they use to buy more models....some make a bit of a profit painting, does this mean it isnt a hobby anymore?

I agree, I think the whole point of the dog and bitch being able to reproduce naturally is so we don't end up with dogs that are difficult breeders and whelpers, and while you may or may not agree with how the UK expect things to be done they seem to have got it right for the most part, I think some breeders and their dogs are getting a little precious.

used to make me mad when my husband and I discussed my dog showing. He said "it was all fun!" I said "are you kidding? We have frantic times getting dogs to the ring all day at the show, hardly get any sleep, constantly walking and x-ing dogs, driving hours on end to get to and from the shows while exhausted, pushing our physical being right to the top". He says "but you love it"...
I said "YOU'RE RIGHT". I wouldn't have it any other way! And I do consider this a hobby, and fun for the most part.

Labradors are not our hobbys, they are our passion.
We love living with them. Learning from them. And making all the great friends they bring us to.

Well said Southland Breeder

Labradors are my passion, and showing and breeding I consider my hobby. I am also passionate about photography, but it is a hobby.

It may not be relaxing...sometimes I get very tense and frustrated. But then again I sew (also as a hobby) and find myself getting tense and frustrated....dang you mean I have to rip out this seam again!..... Why is this not working!..... Shoot I put the button hole in the wrong place!!!..... LOL! Oh, I sold a few doll dresses, but no way am I going to make a living making them.

It is the reward in the outcome, for both my hobbies...breeding and sewing..that makes it worth it all. Relaxing...I do with a good book on a rainy day, with my sleepy Labradors cuddled around me.

Replying to:
If it's not relaxing then it's not your hobby and I would say you're trying to make it your occupation

Very well said all! Just what I was trying to express but others have done it much more eloquently

Labradors ARE my passion as well but this can be a heartbreaking hobby too.

I'm sorry, no flames here, but why is it that people feel so comfortable not using their names on the internet? I mean if you are intentionally going to state things that you KNOW are going to upset people, why be anonymous? Why not say, my name is so-and-so and this is what I think?

I love lurking on this forum, but really don't read much of the anonymous posts for that very reason.

I do love reading the posts from other breeders who aren't afraid to state their names and positions on things...

JMO,

Leslee Pope
Huntcrest

Now girls calm down. I look at it this way. I'm a newbie. I love my Labs, showing, traveling with them, exercising them, cleaning up after all 6 of them, etc. which isn't very many. But, 6 dogs is enough for me right now. I have an occupation, thats what feeds, and cares for my dogs. You know when its relaxing, when you get home from a show, put everyone to bed and with a sigh of relief, say to yourself that was great. Its more than a occupation, if you make a little money you put it back in your kennel. A hobby, I don't know. Merriam Webster's definition, interest engaged in for relaxation. I just love the dogs, love being with them, and so proud even when we don't do well.