Can't help but ask, where is the sport anymore in showing our dogs ? I have gone to two big all breed shows lately, to look at a certain boy for stud. There were nothing but professional handlers. When did we turn our sport and love of our Labradors over to them. I found it sad to see. I show mine and keep plugging along but enjoy my breed. Do we really save money ? Do we really all use dogs with a champion in front of his name ? Look at the well known breeders, they do not. They look at dog, pedigree and what they produce. It sure does not sell our excess pups to pet familys, they don't care. Just found it very sad to see. We miss talking to the owners and finding out about the dogs.

Some people can't show their dogs due to physical limitations. The owners are often there ringside though.

I think it went to the specialties........

I have to admit that I too would use a handler on the right dog at the right age. I think that we have the toughest breed to compete with, i.e. what's needed to get points.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Can't help but ask, where is the sport anymore in showing our dogs ? I have gone to two big all breed shows lately, to look at a certain boy for stud. There were nothing but professional handlers. When did we turn our sport and love of our Labradors over to them. I found it sad to see. I show mine and keep plugging along but enjoy my breed. Do we really save money ? Do we really all use dogs with a champion in front of his name ? Look at the well known breeders, they do not. They look at dog, pedigree and what they produce. It sure does not sell our excess pups to pet familys, they don't care. Just found it very sad to see. We miss talking to the owners and finding out about the dogs.

I agree with the first message. It seems like more & more prof handlers are in the ring. I too miss talking to the different owners/breeders/handers. I don't want to just show at specialties & really don't have the dogs to compete there. I love to show my dogs but do get very frustrated when all I see is faces being put up and to be honest not all have the best dogs. I am being honest so please don't get mad at me.

First let me say, I have always handled my own dogs, so I have had to learn how to be competetive against the pros.

Handlers may not have the best dog of the day but they are VERY good at presenting the best of what they have to work with to the judge. That is what top handlers are paid for. They are professionals- their dogs are properly conditioned (huge one to an All Breed judge), they know what are and how to highlight their dogs virtues and what are and how not to draw attention to their faults. The AKC has imposed a very short amount of time a judge has to make a decision, judges can not stand there waiting for the owner/handler to finally present a pretty picture and show their dog to its best potential. It is all a game of quick glances.

As to why people tend to be using handlers more- I think it is reflective in how we have become an instant gratification society in general. Oftentimes it is quicker to pay someone to take your dog out than to learn how to present it in a competetive way. When owners are ringside, then they really aren't missing out on all the extras you learn while at the show (how dogs are producing, how a dog looks in person instead of a picture, etc) and may actually take more home than the owner/handler, because they get to see how their dog measures up to the competition instead of being kennel blind on the end of the lead and griping why you got robbed.

and thats the bad and sad part "handlers may not have the best dog of the day". Wonder what other sports, lets professional show against amateurs. Just takes some of the fun out of it all. There are just so many at some shows.

I have always shown my own dogs and will while I am physically able. To me, there is nothing like the "rush" of getting the nod or finger point to me and my dog for that final point and finishing my dog all on my own. I would miss that feeling if I were not in the ring, alongside my dog, working as a team. If and when there comes a day when I am not able to show my own dogs, and even worse, not at least be at ringside, then I will keep my guys home with me to enjoy. People use handlers for different reasons and I always feel "each to their own" and what ever works for them. For me, I just have too much fun traveling, showing and playing with my dogs Titles are not all that important to me, but a challenge and a goal to reach. I also love the people and friends I meet along the way.

Cindy - While I do not know you at all, I was impressed to hear your feelings on showing your own dogs. I feel the same way.
However, I did want to ask you about your dogs titles and if you made them all up on your own?
I saw that you had several Int/Can/Amer CH's and was very impressed! Are the Int CH's a "true" Int title or are they from another KC here in the states?
If you did all this on your own, kudos to you!
I don't mean my question in any derogatory way at all. I think that if what you said is true, it gives us other owner/handlers an idea of what can be accomplished on our own!

I don't know - I have a lot of fun at the all-breed shows competing against the professional handlers. In what other sport can you walk in and compete with some of the best in the world? You have to learn to present your dog well. I've watched great dogs shown by owner-handlers lose to good dogs on professional handlers. 9 times out of 10 it's because the owner-handler is actually making the dog look bad!

I agree with Nancy. Its fun to go against the "big" handlers and even better when you beat them! I love to show my dogs and do take a few other dogs along with me for friends who can't always go. I like to travel, rush around to get to the ring then rush home to get unpacked, laundry done, husband fed and kennels cleaned (sometimes the house) and then off to work on Mon only to start all over again the following weekend. Every once in awhile I do ask myself at 6AM on Mon morns on my way to work why do I do this...then I think about the weekend and know why!

you know what bugs me....some of the exhibitors look like they are homeless people. Buy a few nice outfits and look nice in the ring and show your own dog. I think how you look is a reflection of all that you are.
I actually heard a breeder judge talking about how she just couldn't stand to watch all the fat ladies run around the ring. I ain't kidding.

Personally, my dog is out with a handler now because there ARE no majors this time of year anywhere around here. Our numbers keep going up I think due to the number of specialties that sort of skew numbers upward. It takes over 20 bitches for a major, and you're lucky to get 4 or 5 at a show.

There are a few in the fall.

Right now he has been to 10 shows, and they have missed a major by one or two dogs. It's really frustrating.

Did you "breeder" just say you heard a judge saying "fat ladies".. THAT'S HORRIBLE and should not have even been repeated in my opinion. What does size have to do with anything... I'd rather be a large person then the type of person that would EVER say something like that.

Terrible

So do really feel the dogs gets the points? or the end of the lead?

Depends on the judge. My first point came from a judge who wanted to make SURE I was the owner of "that lovely dog"!!
Gotta love those judges!!

What does being a fat person have to do with looking like a homeless person or not dressing well?

I wish I were thinner...I am actually pretty self conscious about it to be truthful and will even admit that some of my fear of showing my own dogs has to do with feeling people will be making just such comments about me So many have told me...don't be silly! Get out there and do it, no one is going to think about such things......now not only do I read a post where someone is making such comments, but even mentioning looking like a homeless person in the same post....
I have been told that being comfortable in the ring is the goal, and although not saying people should look disheveled, I would personally rather see people out there showing their dogs instead of themselves. You are right, and how people present themselves does reflect who they are, and I like to think of myself as down to earth from the inside out. The prettiest packaging can sometimes be nothing more than a ruse
Annie

Annie

Annie, that was my point, small, large, whatever, has nothing to do with anything. I'm taken back a judge would actually say that. It's sad.

Being dressed appropriately, now that's another topic and I would agree completely. But the way we present ourselves has NOTHING to do with the size we are. That has to do with self respect.

Stinky dog.. oh boy wash those doggies

We go to the shows, sit ring side until time for our classes. We watch the leads go in the ring and put a placing order on them before they are even set up. We find we have about 98% accuracy. Now that's where the sport is!!! Or shall I say how the sport is!!

Anonymous Breeer,

"Some people try to find fault
like there is a reward for finding it."
--Unknown

How very sad!!

I think when we did away with benched shows and sitting around chatting for hours cuz you HAD TO STAY, the sport started to change.

I have to agree with the fact that all breed shows are just not what they use to be. The pros handlers come in with a herd of Labs and take the points. And if it is a major, watch out ! I still like to show myself and this is a great time to go shopping. I do think you should look nice. A nice pair of twill pants and sensible shoes go a long way. And yes, I hate to smell the dogs that smell like they just walked out of a hound dog kennel. If there is such a thing. You feel so great when you show yourself and win. Whatever the title is.

You know you bring up a good point and one that is not often brought up. This does not happen in many other breeds and our Labradors are certainly not a high maintenance upkeep like a poodle or Bichon, our dogs are wash and go and we should not have to hire a handler to finish a good dog. Now at Specialties, mostly it is owner handled, but the all breed shows are another kettle of fish and most of it stinky. Most of the all breed show judges have no clue as to type and correct Labrador "look" and movement. They just put up handlers who bring them dogs in the many breeds they judge, therein lies the crime - it is not the handlers fault that most of the all breed judges really don't care, not the way a breeder judge cares about our breed.
I know the all breed clubs just want to hire any judge who can judge 20 breeds, they see it as more bang for the buck, I see it as a darn shame and it leads to very poor quality dogs getting points and a Championship where it is not deserved. I have seen handlers with just beautiful dogs and shamefully with dogs who would never get a point with an owner handler. If we want to make changes we can join the all breed clubs and make our voices heard and insist that since we (Labradors) bring some of the highest entry numbers, we deserve a knowledgeable, quality judge not the hacks that are usually judging Labs.
OK I'll get off my soapbox but I love this breed and hate to see us lose the owner/handler exhibitor.
BTW I have used a handler and may again if I just cannot travel distances, but I also love to show my own whenever possible.

Lois-you make a good point about the all breed shows and who is hired to judge. We, as breeders, can make a point of not showing at the all breed shows to the judge who does not know breed type. When I have questioned by the all breed kennel club members about why the Lab entry was so low, I will state that if you have judges that know breed type, you will get Labrador entries.Unfortunately, the all breed clubs are hindered by budget, cost of getting judges and yes, who the judge can pull in to show.
Conversely, we as breeders, will make a positive impact if we support judges including breeder judges who are hired at all breed shows.

Ditto with Cindy Ellis, well said.
I have all but quit going to All Breeds. It's such a waste of my good time and money. If I'm not going to get a fair shake, then why go? Tired of it, and wiser now.....saving the cash for my next Specialty.

I hear similar things often and for a newbie who still has so much to learn about showing....not to mention someone who lives in Florida where there are not as many specialties close it is sad.
I want to enter into the all breed shows with a sense of hope :)
There are several really big all breeds very close to me coming up that I am really looking forward to...yes, you can say that at least I will finally get some experience, but for the money I could pay the lady who gives us lessons some extra bucks for more one on one time:)
What do people feel about how newbies are treated at all breed shows?
Is it really as closed a club as some make it sound?
I plan on going regardless...I need to finally get over my ring fears so might as well, but I am curious about the differences between all breeds and specialties just because I have so many more all breed opportunities.
Thanks,
Annie

Annie - Don't let those fools chase you away!
I have felt more than welcome in both specialty and AB rings and I am new to it as well.
There are always sour grapes everywhere you go in life, and I am learning who those are in my area.
There are not many truthfully and so far it's been a lot of fun! You just have to ignore the occasional rude person.
Good luck to you! And good for you for getting out there! I bet you'll have a ball!

Thanks much, but dont pat me on the back just yet, I have chickened out a couple times now!
Hubby has been gently nudging me saying.."ok now...you have THREE dogs just sitting around with their paws crossed waiting for you to get over your foolishness." ok...hubby inst always gentle about it

When I started in on the whole idea of maybe being a steward first thats when he said come on...now you are just looking for reasons not to get out there and do it.

Annie

Hi Breeder,
To answer your questions of, did I put the titles on myself...yes, on all my dogs. One dog listed on my site is a son of my dog and he is owned by another party. They finished him, but the rest are mine and I had a ball finishing them. I too, find it a challenge to go up against pro handlers. We went on the Montana circuit a couple of years ago and almost everyone in the ring was a big time handler. Well the "Dog showGods" were with us because my boy picked up a 5 point major with his owner/handler on him. Now that was a RUSH!! We did it again the next year with a cute little yellow bitch. That is why I love doing it myself. I would have never got that feeling of accomplishment if I had sent them with a handler. I really makes it a fun sport for me and my dogs.
As far as the Int. Championship, not sure where those come from. They do come from another country and you can get your championship in one weekend. They are kind of "funky" but tons of fun. A bit different from the usual AKC stuff.

Annie, just jump in with both feet! There are alot of nice friendly people here in Fl. Hope to see you at the up coming shows.

Thanks Cindy - You have some lovely dogs who deserve to win - Good for you for doing it yourself!

I wish everyone had to, it would make things a bit more on the level playing field.
I have beat top handlers too, but all too often thats not the case and sometimes it very, very obvious.
Sad.

Annie I was EXACTLY like you but I just did it and I never looked back.
I was hooked immediately.

Annie go on. You will have a good time. There are lots of nice Lab lovers and breeders by ring side.
We all started off right there. Take a pup, they will think it is the pup not doing perfect, takes the pressure off of you. You need to see how your Labs stand in the crowd. Just jump in there. And let us know how you do. You will be proud with a ribbon.

Just do it Annie! When I started out, I had only ever been to 1 match show (which is a little different). I didn't even know where to get my number. I found everyone to be very helpful and encouraging. They even told me where to stand and when to go in (and stay in for reserves). And that includes the pro handlers. I also got a lot of feedback from everyone about my dog which was very helpful.

Just wanted to give a quick thanks to all who are so encouraging.
I just joined infodog and am making my show list so I will update you guys when i can finally say I have "done it" Although my plans are not to show until some events in October and November, there is a Deland (fl) show coming up in Sept and if anyone on the boards has plans to attend let me know if you wouldn't object to a tag along.
Thanks again,
Annie

Although I have been around Labradors my whoe life as my mother is a long time breeder, I am relatively new to shows and dog showing. I have been going to sows with my Mom for about five years now and have only gotten in the ring myself in the last two years. I have encountered both nasty and nice people in the ring. Most of the time people are very nice. A for instance of this was the first time I was in a Winner's Bitch class. I was running late getting to the ring and was a helped by a woman in the class as to where I was supposed to line up. Also I have encountered (at specialties any ways) judges who are almost always helpful and patient with new exibitors, especially those showing young dogs. We rarely use handlers on our dogs. In fact there are only two we use. One who is a handler/breeder and close friend. She has finished many dogs. We use her when no one else is available (class conflict) or for far away shows as she travels the circuit for her livelihood. In addition we use a younger handler who has had success with other sporting breeds, but no experience with labradors until she met us at the vet clinic she was working. One other reason to occassionally have a handler show a dog even if you are available, is when you want to get a better idea of what your dog looks like in the ring as well as critically evaluate the ompetition. Often we get so wrapped up in showing our dogs we don't get a chance to see what else is in the ring. Furthermore, as we are normally the ones who train our dogs to show, we don't get to see them stood up unless we have someone who has the time and is willing to photograph them for us. No one may ever read this as I jumped on to this thread late, but despite the points I and others have made justifying the use of handlers, it is still a little disconceerting to see how many handlers are in the ring anymore.

I like to hope that this could be a family sport as it once was. However if we just go to specialties, we lose our foot hold in the all breed ring. I have been showing for many years. I have seen blatant politics, just poor judging (lack of knowledge), and those judges who truly want to do the best job possible and have a good eye for breed type. Call me naive, but I still want to believe that most judges want to do a good job.

Annie talks about chickening out before going in the ring, but I want to beleive that most judges are very accomodating to novices.

So talking about taking the plunge, I have a friend that I show dogs for and her young daughter has been wanting to show the dogs too. She is now 6. Her puppy "Misty" has been her project and she tells me all the time how she trains her. I showed her a few weeks ago and she took second in her class the first day. I had another class winner so I told this young girl that if Misty had to go back in that she could take her in. The judge that day had a really strange sense of humor and I was a little worried he might be a little intimating to this girl. I prepared her by telling her that the judge may seem like he's mean, but he's really being funny. So here's this cute little curlied hair blonde girl taking her dog in the ring for the first time. She walks up to the judge, leash coiled neatly in one hand and to my delight the judge says to her, Well Hi there, what's your name? She answers him confidently and then proceeds to move her dog as instructed, never showing any nerves. She comes out of the ring and tells me that the judge wasn't mean at all! I was pleased that her first time in the ring was a pleasant experience.

The next day she was ready to show again. Well her puppy won her class as did my dog, but after seeing what the judge was putting up, I felt her puppy had the best chance of winning, so I asked her if she'd take my dog back in. She did an even better job the next day. The judge, again, being very kind to this young girl. I was right in my decision on who to take back in the ring as her puppy won Winner's bitch and then went Best Opposite over a special! She got a lovely rossette for BOS. When we took pics I had this young girl with me in the photo and afterwards gave her the ribbons. When she got back to her family, her dad asked to see the ribbons and she quickly said, "No, I am taking them home and putting them under lock and key!"

Now to me, getting new people involved, seeing them do well, having the whole family take part, doesn't get any better than that! Truly a sport.

Dianne

We had a foot hold? Ha! What foot hold? Honey, we never had one. It's all a game. Which handler means the most to me, hummmm? Seen it from both sides. You have your head somewhere dark.

Annie -

I'm right there with you! For the past sevral years I have attended dog shows, researched pedigrees, dogs, lurked on forums, etc.... all is preparation of hoping to show one day. Have had Labs since 1989 and decided about 6-7 years ago that I would like to show.

Well, my boy is just over 6 months. He is my 1st show pup. We have been going to handling classes for several weeks now and we both are improving. I am very blessed to have a breeder who first and foremost is giving me a chance. Second she is very helpful with any questions I have and always provides advice.

Now that we are at the time to start 'officially' showing my nerves have really started! I hope I have nerve enough to actually go into the ring! The others in my handling class have been very friendly in complementing my dog, offering advice, etc. So that gives me hope!

Valerie

I think there are issues at both specialties and all-breed shows, and if people paid more attention to their actions, it might go along way in helping people feel more comfortable taking part in these events. At our club’s specialty a few years ago, the sweepstakes judge was watching the regular classes with friends spent a good part of the time making comments about the dogs currently being judged. She made several unkind comments about one dog being judged while the owner of that dog stood behind her, trying to watch her dog. The dog in question had both majors and is a nice representative of the breed and has had nice specialty placements in the past (which really is beside the point). The owner is someone who does not do a lot of showing but does show at our specialty to support the club. Another time at the Potomac, I sat next to a well-known breeder judge and some of her friends and listened to her rip apart the judging (and dogs) in the rings. I often wonder if some judges have ever read the AKC code of Sportsmanship – the loss of “sport” is a sad thing and it is not just a problem at all breed shows.

I was witness to a similar, sad event a few years ago. A foreign judge was sitting (the day after her assignment) with a well-known American breeder/judge watching that day's show. I just happened to be sitting behind the two of them by chance, and the American judge was just ripping many of the other breeders in the ring up one side and down the other to the foreign judge - one of the people was a good friend of mine and to this day I've never told her what this judge said about her (and she thinks this judge is her "friend"). I was appalled and it really gave me a different opinion of this judge.

Everyone has to start somewhere Annie! I have been showing for less than 6 months, including matches! I was really scared the first time out, then I realized that it is not about me, it's about the puppy or dog at the end of my lead. I am proud of my girls, and the bonding experience we have experienced training for and going into the ring is wonderful! I am still learning so much, that each show is a great opportunity for me to fine tune what I am doing. Each puppy is different, and it takes a different style of handling with either of them. I know I have had a good day when I learned a new technique to teach Truffle to stand quietly for her mouth exam, or I know she is gaiting properly. Annie, after the first time out, it gets so much easier, I walked out of the ring my first time, and my daughter was standing there, and we both said "We did it!!" It felt so good, and now it's fun! Go for it girl! Make yourself just do it, you'll be happy you did!