What IF? and this is a hypathetical question my you's...what if your Lab threw a silver or charcoal...would you cull it??

P.S. I am NOT a troll.

yes, but I cant see that EVER happening EVER in my lines, b/c all silvers lines go back to the same kennel.

I think this is a good question. As I'm not breeding yet, I'm cusiouse to see what others say. My view, if these color are from mixed breedings, and if you know your lines, then it shouldn't show up. If it did show up in one of my breedings, I would cull her.

Plain and simple, the dilute gene responsible for charcoal/silver, is NOT in the general population of Labradors! The dilute gene is traced back to just one line of Labradors that were from a hunting kennel that had both Labs and Weims. This suggests that the gene is not a mutation nor is a gene that has been with the breed since its inception.

I have been breeding for over 20 years, owned/breed all three colors, have been showing for the same amount time, have talked to countless breeders and NO ONE has ever produced a Labrador with a dilute coat. I am 100% confident that I will not have to be faced with the decision to place (not cull) a dog because it produced a dilute color. It's just not in the lines!

Dianne

Absolutley not -- that is not a life inhibiting defect!!! I would for sure though make sure it went to a home where it had no chance of being bred or spay/neuter before it left me.

Johanne

who's that guy on here all the time who breeds silvers? He boasts that wiscoy dogs are in his silver lines.

No offense meant, as maybe I am misunderstanding your idea of culling, but what kind of person/breeder would cull a pup for any reason other than the pups own suffering?
I know this has been done, but I always attributed it to thoughtless horrid people who just saw a pup they couldn't breed, sell or show as another mouth to feed, no better than Vick and his cohorts killing dogs who couldn't fight because they were of no use to them. What about the mis mark pup? How many wonderful stories have we seen of people who have these wonderful mis marks as pets?
I know that no one here has actually said they DO cull so sorry if I am coming across as harsh, but the idea that people might actually still do this scares me a bit.
If the worry is that others would breed such a dog, I ask about your worries about a person breeding ANY of your pups and say that if you are screening your families properly, this could most likely be avoided.
So what would the reason be to cull?
Personally if a breeding of mine threw a color such as that I would be more worried about why and how that happened than of disposing of the evidence!
I look at any unexpected outcome, be it a cleft palate pup, a mis mark, or such as part of what I get in choosing to do this and will care for ANY pup in my breedings that I do not think is suffering or going to suffer.
Just the two cents of a bleeding heart though, so take it for what you will:)
Annie

Johanne

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cull

cull /kʌl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to choose; select; pick.
2. to gather the choice things or parts from.
3. to collect; gather; pluck.
–noun 4. act of culling.
5. something culled, esp. something picked out and put aside as inferior.


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[Origin: 1300–50; ME coilen, cuilen, cullen < AF, OF cuillir < L colligere to gather; see collect1]


So when I said I would cull the bitch from my program I meant I would place it. I dont think any breeder of labs I know would kill a pup EVER, no matter what the issue is. Cull to me is remove it from the program.

That's what I would hope to hear! Thank You so much!!!

"who's that guy on here all the time who breeds silvers? He boasts that wiscoy dogs are in his silver lines."

It's easy to have a champion "in" silver lines. They just have to breed a silver to a chocolate of another pedigree/line (CH, MH, FC, etc) and then all the resulting puppies will be chocolate and carry silver. Then the next generation can go back to a silver line and produce silvers.

Yes all silvers can be traced back to the same lines.

No a silver or charcoal (dilute) has never been produced in show dog breedings or in a litter that does not have both parents tracing back to silver lines.

And while I certainly would assume that is what anyone on here would mean,(placing and removing from the breeding program) there is a sad bit of the past where is was pretty common practice and I am sure somewhere it still goes on...not so much in our breed, or by the type of breeders who would frequent a board such as this, but in puppy mills and by breeders who breed for unethical reasons, such as fighting and even in some breeders who breed "protection" dogs, it still happens:(
When I worked for a rotti breeder long ago, I heard many ghastly stories (of other breeders) and that was always the term used "culled" so it is stuck in my head now with a very negative connotation.
Annie

I agree Annie, the word "cull" does bring a negative image of breeders who, did indeed kill their inferior stock rather than take the time to find good homes for them. Sadly it still happens, usually with volume breeders who do not want to be bothered with placing the dogs in good pets because it takes up room in their kennel waiting until the home comes along.

I know it was mentioned on one Silver website in the FAQs sections. It was an answer for the question of the color being seen in the original Labrador. It basically stated that breeders of the black, yellow and chocolate would kill (cull) silver puppies because they did not like them. Of course we all know that is not true, no reputable breeder has ever produced the dilute color therefore they were not being killed. However we all know that black and tan/brindle mismarks do occur on occasion. Those dogs are simply placed in pet homes as well.

I do prefer the term placing a dog. We all know that we can't keep everything we produce and those that do not measure up to our standards are placed in good pet homes.

Dianne

I definatly ment cull,as in to remove from breeding an place in a pet home

Since a huge percentage of breeder's puppies go to pet home anyway, I cannot imagine why a silver would go elsewhere. If I had one, I'd sell it without papers.

You ARE a troll.

Many breeders won't understand what you mean by "cull". In the old days it meant "kill".

But in answer to your question, I would only euthanize a puppy that was suffering. Mismarks, bad colors, bad bites, and just plain not show/breeding quality become pets. They are removed from the breeding population. I make sure their gonads are "culled".

And BTW it’s hypothetical. Not hypathetical. Pathetic is a whole ‘nuther thing, although it is a good way to describe trolling.

Meanwhile, everyone go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll.

Asking questions is how people learn. I think an inquiring (or wondering ) mind is fantastic. They have the ability to learn and better themself for whatever passions they wish to have in life. And having the courage to ask questions even from people who aren't always willing to give a gracious answer is also an admirable trait. (I was always too shy!) I think We are all passionate about our breed here. And as breeders education should be one of our pursuits, whether it be our own or that of others who dare ask. I think we should always have gracious patient answers ready, not sarcastic ones.

So here is to you 'wondering'
Thanks for your question! I'm sure the greatest among us once started as inquiring minds.
Shannan

I can absolutly guarantee, that I have not nor am I likely to every produce a silver, in fact after breeding chocolates for many many years it has not happened, gee I guess that means I don't cross breed with Wei's. Even breeders who have bred chocolates much much longer than I have never produced a silver. Personally I am sick to death of the whole "Silver" thing, people will buy them because the breeders tell the buyer that they are a rare colour, so rare in fact they don't exist, however cross breeds do.

Place/spay the bitch, keep the pup, neuter it, ILP it as a Lab, (no tracable ancestry) and make sure that no silver breeder could ever claim to have the first ANY title (except CD, which someone already has) by titling that pup in anything and everything I could.

Takes away one selling point for them, at least.

Oh and as for culling puppies, no not here unless they pup is surfering in some way.

No, I am not a troll so calm down.. It was just a hypOthetical question and PLEASE stop putting that ridiculous website up, you have posted it SO many times we know it by heart. Thanks for correcting my spelling too...I'm not perfect, LORD KNOWS, I'm not perfect.

Thank you.

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Replying to:

Asking questions is how people learn. I think an inquiring (or wondering ) mind is fantastic. They have the ability to learn and better themself for whatever passions they wish to have in life. And having the courage to ask questions even from people who aren't always willing to give a gracious answer is also an admirable trait. (I was always too shy!) I think We are all passionate about our breed here. And as breeders education should be one of our pursuits, whether it be our own or that of others who dare ask. I think we should always have gracious patient answers ready, not sarcastic ones.

So here is to you 'wondering'
Thanks for your question! I'm sure the greatest among us once started as inquiring minds.
Shannan

You all better go back to school. CULL is a commonly used word when it comes to animals. I'd like to CULL a few people from this breed....

Are you from THEE Candlewood?

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Replying to:

You all better go back to school. CULL is a commonly used word when it comes to animals. I'd like to CULL a few people from this breed....

If you are I would LOVE to talk to you...I just love the temperaments of your dogs, their eagerness, HARDINESS and drive. I am currently trying to emulate 2 of your dogs in my lines...can you guess which ones?? I can't spell worth a shhhhht so forgive me.

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Replying to:

Are you from THEE Candlewood?

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Replying to:

You all better go back to school. CULL is a commonly used word when it comes to animals. I'd like to CULL a few people from this breed....

since its genetically impossible, I wouldn't have to worry about it!!

It is going to be possible in 4 generations...think about it... a good looking Lab is a good looking Lab and if AKC allows this new registration then you will face it sooner than you think. The registration will be handled the same as imports...how are you to know the difference? are they questionable or are they imports? Maybe I'm reading this all wrong bu I don't think so.

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since its genetically impossible, I wouldn't have to worry about it!!

If you breed only to dogs who you know the histories of, you can still avoid the issue. If anything i would think the new AKC policy would promote people only using studs of better known breeders who people had more faith in, or whose dogs they knew well.
I could see it being a problem for new people who didn't do their research about various lines before actually breeding litters.
Being a new person myself I can say I put alot of time really investigating the lines I finally settled on trying to emulate (perpetuate) and am also making sure I don't make a move without people who are INVOLVED in those lines giving me the go ahead.
This is not to say I don't have my own thoughts, but I have been amazed at the wealth of info I have gotten back by just running different dogs past people I respect.
I could be wrong, but I just cant see many reputable breeders wanting to stud their boys out to a "conditional" female or any Bitch owners going to a "conditional" male even if he looked like a million bucks...so that leads me to think that those "issues" will still be kept to a pretty small pool of dogs, and as small a world as this community is, it is hard to think people wont be well aware of who they are no matter what cert they have.

Annie

Perhaps the AKC could create another new registration category called "Junk Yard Dogs". This is the logical slot for silvers, blues, charcoals etc to fit into.

Let's debunk this myth right now. It is the parent club that gets to change the standard (as those of us who went through the last change painfully know.) The AKC simply has to approve or disapprove the change. The parent club - THE Labrador Retriever Club - will NEVER approve silver. They have already issued the statement. Silver will always be a disqualifying fault in the show ring, just as mismarks are. You can register all of them, and you can try to bring them into the show ring, but the dog will be disqualified. Too bad DNA testing wasn't around for the first silvers that popped up.

Ask a silver breeder to show you any paperwork or even a simple e-mail or letter to the AKC on this subject. I have. All I got was that it is a slow and complicated process and they are moving forward. Baloney.

I'll never get a silver in my chocolate litters. I've had mismarks. They are all spayed or neutered and have wonderful homes. And I'm hoping that the silver breeders can never trace any pedigrees to my breeding. But as we've seen - it can happen by hook or crook.

I have been breeding chocolates for years and have not even come close to a light color and for sure NEVER anywhere have seen a pale color. Spay the dog. Just like you would a bad hip, elbow, bad eyes, seizures. Not normal. Not standard.
And I doubt that is the Candlewood we all know.

If Lorna, Countess Howe, Gwen Broadley and Mary Roslin Williams knew that several silver Labs had reached the UK from the USA and had been registered as chocolates with the Kennel Club they would be spinning in their graves. I would be willing to bet that none of these respected ladies ever saw a silver puppy crop up in any litter. If silver really was a natural "mutation/dilution" of chocolate then it would have appeared long ago and not just in the USA.

good point.

-The dilute gene is traced back to just one line of Labradors that were from a hunting kennel that had both Labs and Weims.

Who is this specific kennel?

Most people think of Culo as the original kennel. He was one of the most vocal and did a great deal of breeding, but behind Culo was Beavercreeks. They had some nice field dogs, but also a lot of close breeding that produced silver.

JanG