Has anyone had a problem with a judge not putting up a dog because of one missing tooth? Some judges have spent more than the usual amount of time examining teeth and my bitch then gets passed over. Is it really that big of a deal? Thanks

Depends on the judge. Some are tooth fairies and some don't really care. One missing tooth should not matter as far as I'm concerned - they still can pick up a duck

IMO it is a big deal, this is not breeding material any more than if the dog was missing a toe (even though it can still walk and run). The judge can only speculate or take your word that it was not congenital.

In some breeds, missing teeth are a HUGE thing. If you get an all-breed judge from that kind of background, they'll pass them over for a missing tooth. Lab breeder judges look at the overall dog.

too many newbies giving opinions on this board if you ask me. if the dog is of good quality, then missing teeth should not matter. hope "My Opinion" gets it.

It really does depend on the judge. Just keep in mind that our wonderful standard does list missing teeth as a "serious fault". Some judges tend to "fault" judge insteand of being able to recognize and reward outstanding qualities. Those are the judges who will not put up a dog because they are missing teeth. Most are all-rounder judges.

Dianne

Well another hot button issue without mentioning if the dog with missing tooth or several missing teeth was a nice pet or was a show stopper except for the teeth.
If you have 8 dogs in the ring and two are looking good for first place and one has 4 missing teeth well that seems to put a different perspective on it. I won't ignore a wonderful dog for a missing tooth but I might for 4 missing, and if the missing tooth dog is the only one there deserving of a first well then, missing teeth gets the blue. There are many more factors to consider than just the dentition, however if we hope to produce beautiful dogs with full dentition then it is something to consider in the total picture IMO

I heard Jean Fournier give a talk about missing teeth... She had just judged the Havanese National and was very concerned with the number of dogs with missing teeth. Her point was that if you ignore missing teeth in your breeding program, you will start to lose your muzzle shape and size. It was an interesting point.

thanks to everyone for responding. This is a beautiful 2-year old bitch sold as show quality, has 4 points so far, 3 best of winners and 1 winners bitch. I can't believe her 1 missing tooth, a molar near the back of her mouth, can affect her that much. She made the cut of yellows at Rose City so I don't think the tooth was a big issue there. She's passed her cerf and is optigen A and will get hips and elbows ofa'd this fall. What would one of you owners of a great stud dog feel if I asked about breeding to your male? Showing is a very costly hobby for me as I don't show myself, so maybe I should forget it if this is such a big deal. I hope not.

If you like her that much, she passes her clearances, etc. ONE missing tooth is NO big deal. You have to look at the total picture. I can see if she had 4+ but one??!! Don't believe stud dog owners even ask about full dentition. If you are concerned about it just breed to a pedigree where missing teeth are not a problem.

Just don't double on missing teeth and you should be fine.

>>What would one of you owners of a great stud dog feel if I asked about breeding to your male? <<

If the combined pedigree was cool, I'd say "when will she be coming to visit him?"

:-)
Di

There are some breeders around my area who don't have a mouth full of teeth amongst them. In my opinion any more then one missing is too many missing, I agree, eventually the shape and length of the muzzle, and bite will be affected.

One missing tooth = no problem
2,3,4,5 missing teeth = spay/neuter

If I had to spay my bitch because she has 2 missing teeth then we wouldn't have her 3 beautiful daughters with us today. By the way, all 3 daughters have correct bite and full dentition !!!! Most all of her kids who went into pet homes have a full dentition as well.

" There are some breeders around my area who don't have a mouth full of teeth amongst them."

perhaps if you suggested to the breeders in your area to try getting fitted for a "Partial" they will be able to retain their beautiful jawline and muzzle !!

OK, you really have me going now. The naivete of some people on this forum giving out advice (and other following it) is just amazing.

How some of you think a dog with a couple of missing teeth should be spayed, yet you show and breed dogs that have sloping croups, poor tail sets, no rear extension, flipping pasterns, grossly overdone and overweight, open coated dogs that could no way perform their job, etc. etc.
Now, throw in all the health hurdles to overcome. This kind of thinking makes me crazy.

LOOK AT THE WHOLE DOG!!

Do yourself and everyone else a favor. Get educated about this breed. Look up the original standard, look at the English standard, and start breeding correct Labradors.

Just because someone added missing teeth to a mostly incorrect and highly controversial revised standard doesn't change what a correct Labrador should be.

AMEN!! - Well said Laura!

Here! Here! Thanks Laura. This needed to be put in perspective.

Excellent reply Laura.

To answer the original posters question Yes for some judges it is a big deal. Keep a log of those judges to avoid. There are also quite a few judges who don't give a hoot about missing teeth and keep a log on those also.

Good Luck with your girl.

Genetic hypodontia is recessively passed on and doesn't show up in each litter.

Bravo Laura... Very well stated!!!

WTG Laura!!! It also drives me nuts when newbies start flapping their jaws to make themselves seem knowlegable when in fact they don't know a thing at all, I think most newbies should be seen and not heard just like little kids argh!
Aloha,
Jackie

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Replying to:

OK, you really have me going now. The naivete of some people on this forum giving out advice (and other following it) is just amazing.

How some of you think a dog with a couple of missing teeth should be spayed, yet you show and breed dogs that have sloping croups, poor tail sets, no rear extension, flipping pasterns, grossly overdone and overweight, open coated dogs that could no way perform their job, etc. etc.
Now, throw in all the health hurdles to overcome. This kind of thinking makes me crazy.

LOOK AT THE WHOLE DOG!!

Do yourself and everyone else a favor. Get educated about this breed. Look up the original standard, look at the English standard, and start breeding correct Labradors.

Just because someone added missing teeth to a mostly incorrect and highly controversial revised standard doesn't change what a correct Labrador should be.

I am a newbie and have always stated this, as well as included my name at the end of a post. I resent the fact that some breeders always lump us together and put the 'hopefully' upcoming group of labrador breeders down in general. Most of you were new at sometime as well! I have come to this board in the past to ask what I believe have been well thought out questions for which I am truly looking for good sound advice. I do have a mentor but sometimes you need a different twist on things; after all most people come here for advice and it is their choice to take it or not! As to "Newbies flapping their gums" what in the previous posts makes you assume any of the advice given came from a "Newbie" you know if you assume you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
I would just like to state that this is my first post in a long time but this kind of attitude has reduced me to a constant lurker and non-poster, hoping someone will bring up a topic I might have some interest in. Please be kinder, we were not all born with the knowledge some of you profess to have. PS Laura your post was exactly the advice I believe this person was looking for! Elaine

Hi Elaine,
If you reread my post it stated SOME newbies NOT all newbies, what irks me is when they start giving advice that they know nothing about, as you stated you ask questions not give advice so the post was not directed at you.
Aloha,
Jackie

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Replying to:

I am a newbie and have always stated this, as well as included my name at the end of a post. I resent the fact that some breeders always lump us together and put the 'hopefully' upcoming group of labrador breeders down in general. Most of you were new at sometime as well! I have come to this board in the past to ask what I believe have been well thought out questions for which I am truly looking for good sound advice. I do have a mentor but sometimes you need a different twist on things; after all most people come here for advice and it is their choice to take it or not! As to "Newbies flapping their gums" what in the previous posts makes you assume any of the advice given came from a "Newbie" you know if you assume you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
I would just like to state that this is my first post in a long time but this kind of attitude has reduced me to a constant lurker and non-poster, hoping someone will bring up a topic I might have some interest in. Please be kinder, we were not all born with the knowledge some of you profess to have. PS Laura your post was exactly the advice I believe this person was looking for! Elaine

i agree with Elaine...it is not fair to lump all "newbies" together. Some more experienced people are making terrible decisions about the breed...and so are some Newbies...but on the flip side, some experienced people are making the better decisions and so are some of the newbies. Experience is an extremely valuable tool but certainly not the only tool. Some Newbies are not tainted by experience and will do more thorough research & better decision making. I know of an "experienced" person in our area...(in the breed for 30 years) who honestly thinks a lab is suppose to double track in the rear when gaiting...He also honestly believes a Labrador does not need to move well on land so long as it can swim....I might only have 7 years in the breed, but I am glad that I am not under such impressions. Some people are just more able to interpret the real standards of the breed and prioritize accordingly....to know a balanced, typey, functional dog..

Most newbies should be seen and not heard? Nice. So we should just read everything we see by older more experienced breeders whether they are talking out their arse or not, and don't guestion, because we're better off not heard.

While breeding dogs with missing teeth may seem inane to one breeder, to others it may be a serious bone of contention. Right up there with poor pigment or weak pasterns. Personally, I don't like either, nor do I like a sloping croup, but I actually know what that is, unlike some long time breeders I have met recently!

I personally like a mouth full of pearly whites, but then, I am a newbie, and so I must be better seen and not heard.

To each his/her own. Do whatever you can sleep with at night. Sheesh.

Look at the whole dog, always excellent advice. There is to much bashing of alledged newbies on this forum and the sucking-up is sickening too, "amen", "here here", "bravo", "WTG", "excellent reply".

"It also drives me nuts when newbies start flapping their jaws to make themselves seem knowledgeable when in fact they don't know a thing at all, I think most newbies should be seen and not heard just like little kids argh!"

Thats a harsh statement Jackie, I dont think its fair to dump "most" newbies into the problems with poor advice.... I am sure there are those who have been "breeding" for 10 years that give out just as poor advice as someone 1 year in.
I take everything with a grain of salt unless I see who the poster is anyway. But to say that a newbie should be seen not heard

Never said I am a newbie hater, in fact I am probably one of the only long time breeders here in Hawaii that will give a newbie a chance and help them any way I can (in fact I bend over backwards) if they want to start showing and breeding dogs without all the strings attached that most breeders have on the "show potentials" they sell. What irritates me is when those newbies learn a little and then try and give advice and claim to know what they don't know. It takes years and experience to make up your mind about what shouldn't be bred, the person that said the dog should be spayed/nuetered if missing more than one tooth has his/her head in the sand, the old standard was the correct one, this new standard sucks IMHO, Laura gave execellent advice.... at least I use my real name unlike the others that post here and flap their jaws (and those are the ones that I am referring to is the ones that don't have the guts to use their real names and post incorrect advice) and I stand by what I say, I just hate it when people take what I write out of context.
Aloha,
Jackie

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Replying to:

"It also drives me nuts when newbies start flapping their jaws to make themselves seem knowledgeable when in fact they don't know a thing at all, I think most newbies should be seen and not heard just like little kids argh!"

Thats a harsh statement Jackie, I dont think its fair to dump "most" newbies into the problems with poor advice.... I am sure there are those who have been "breeding" for 10 years that give out just as poor advice as someone 1 year in.
I take everything with a grain of salt unless I see who the poster is anyway. But to say that a newbie should be seen not heard

"I just hate it when people take what I write out of context."

No, I believe they did not take what you wrote out of context, they quoted you correctly.

Sorry, but I do understand where Jackie is coming from. Newbies, those learning, whatever, sometimes they read some, they listen some, they take things off forums as the facts and all of a sudden they know everything. I have had those new breeder friends in my life. The ones of us who have been doing this for 20/30 years and learn something new everyday and are open to learn something new know the newer breeders. When they state information so matter of factly. They see black or white, they have not been doing it long enough to see the grey. The pain of the grey will come. They do need to listen more. Stay in it long enough and you will swallow your words. JMO

Exactly what I was try to say! I myself have "swallowed a lot of my words! You live and learn and you never learn it all no matter how long you have been breeding!
Aloha,
Jackie

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Replying to:

Sorry, but I do understand where Jackie is coming from. Newbies, those learning, whatever, sometimes they read some, they listen some, they take things off forums as the facts and all of a sudden they know everything. I have had those new breeder friends in my life. The ones of us who have been doing this for 20/30 years and learn something new everyday and are open to learn something new know the newer breeders. When they state information so matter of factly. They see black or white, they have not been doing it long enough to see the grey. The pain of the grey will come. They do need to listen more. Stay in it long enough and you will swallow your words. JMO

Being in dogs for 37 years has allowed me to stop "sucking up" as you say. When you have 37 years under your belt and have experienced the heartaches of some of us "long-time" breeders you will understand what looking at the entire dog really means.

As far as my "bravo" comment ... it still stands. Laura is my peer (as a breeder judge and a breeder)and I agree wholeheartedly with what she has stated. Keep yours to yours if you cannot identify yourself. Another bone of contention for the anon posters. Get a backbone and stand up for what you believe in. Then, too, you may be taken seriously!

Just because a poster has an opinion that you aren't in agreement with does not make that poster a newbie. Opinions are just that, opinions and everyone is entitled to one. You don't know how or why they have their opinion. Categorizing people based on their opinions is not right, makes it seem like your opinion is the "correct" one and puts out a negative connotation. There is no difference between this and "name calling" done by a child.

There is a lot of bad advice given on this forum, both by newbies and oldsters. While investing many years in the breed SHOULD give one the experience and wisdom necessary to give sound advice, it does not always work that way. Some people grow older but do not always “grow up”, and I think rewarding people based on performance rather than tenure is the way to go. Bright caring people who are diligent come in all ages, sizes and colors. There are as many old timers who cut corners and overlook serious issues (seizures, etc.) as there are newbies who do not want to pay their dues. Being in the breed “forever” does not give someone license to insult or be rude and it would be nice if people could debate issues without making stereotypical comments.

Getting back to the subject of missing teeth, it can and does skip generations. Your bitch with one missing tooth has been recognized at Specialties and all-breed shows so she must have some good breed type. That being said there are NO perfect dogs. In the big picture of The Whole Dog one missing tooth is a minute thing. There are judges that come from breeds that it is a major requirement for them. I would just not show her to these judges. Why would you take your nice bitch and pay for someone to pass her up because they don't know a good Labrador?
When you breed her try to find a nice boy who would compliment her and comes from a line with full dentition. It may take several generations or you may never get rid of that gene. Just keep it in perspective.
Traci

Without agreeing with either side (as dentition isn't a problem in either of my dogs so I haven't put much thought into it), I would SPECULATE that the reason that many "newbies" have trouble looking at the total picture is because there are some things that it's pretty darn easy to make a line in the sand about. You can define how many teeth is "not enough" but it's really hard to define how poor a front has to be before you'll turn the dog into a pet. You can define what hip or elbow ratings you'll breed, but how do you rate how "bad" a head or gait has to be to place the dog as a pet? Long time breeders have a better understanding of what's way out there for their own line, when a new breeder simply might not KNOW enough to have decided. What are they going to do if that's all they have, the one bitch, and heck, she passed her clearances and has a couple singles so she's obviously not godawful?

Secondly, IMO to the original poster--how are you picking shows, and how many times has she really been passed over? Are there other things that might be adding up to combine, in some judges eyes, to make her worse than you really think she might be? For example, does she have a "nice" but not "great" front, but some judges have forgiven in favor of her other virtues? When you look around the ring, are the other dogs very strong, or at least better, in her visible (i.e. not in her mouth) faults?

Thank you so much for coming back to the subject of one little missing tooth. I didn't mean to stir up trouble, believe me. I think the idea of keeping track of judges who feel the teeth is a good idea. That's why I posted the question--just to get ideas I hadn't thought of. I'm glad to know not everyone thinks I'm making a mistake by spending money on what I consider a beautiful representative of the breed. Look in LQ winter issue P. 122--I guess that blows my anonymity!

Page 122 is a very well known finished dog who is advertised as "full dentition"?!?!?!

Are you looking at the "Winter LQ"?

As a "novice" I find this forum can be informative and at times it is certainly entertaining but if I want advice about my dogs I ask someone with experience who I trust and respect i.e. the dog's breeder.
Cheers
Dawn

WINTER issue! Wow--wish Summer issue p. 122 was mine!!

OK! I try to keep quiet on this form but....very frusterated when I read people giving wrong advise!

I own BISS Ch. Lenches Teddy Bear (13years old)Top Speaclty winning Labrador with 12 BISS! He also has won the Breed at Westminster. He is missing more teeth than probablly any Labrador out there and never stoped him from winning didn't change his mussle and has produced many champion children and grandchildren one being BISS Ch. Lubberline Martingale who has all his teeth! You breed for the whole Labrador! It is no different than a low tail set etc. Know your lines your working with...Breed type to type...use many of us as mentors. I keep my mouth shut on the form on most statements made in hopes new people will talk to breeders for the correct answers or just with time they will figure it out for themselves. Being in a breed long enough you will have everything happen to you. You can't loose type by always being a purest. It is important to learn lines from kennels and see what dogs produce and have to offer your lines. I love this breed and love educating people but statements like this on this form have to be adressed.

BY THE WAY TEDDY CAN OUT EAT ANY DOG OUT THERE WITH NO TEETH AND PICK UP A BIRD AND NOT RUFFLE A FEATHER! LOL

I have to agree it depends on tne judge.as far as breeding stock goes,, a few missing teeth would not deter me from using a dog outstanding in other qualities,,theres worse things out there for sure.. lucky me all the dogs i currently have have full dentition,, but i have owned dogs and had a male that was used a bit that was missing a molar.. he produced in his litters only 2 pups missing teeth.if thats all he produced i would consider myself very lucky... LeeAnne

Well Said Laura! look at the whole dog. LeeAnne

Laura Dedering thank you for your post! I agree with you totally.

What most people do not think about is that missing teeth have been with us from the beginning. It is just now being brought to light and being portrayed as a glaring growing problem. Hogwash! And meanwhile all this time muzzle issues are not a raging problem because of it, so the arguement that over time muzzle issues could become a problem simply is not the case.

If I need advice, I ask people that I 100% trust and respect their breeding program. I would not be posting here.

I have a well used delete button for misinformative posts, and skip well over others on forums.

The way I see it, if you ask a few hundred people, you get a few hundred different opinions.

While I may be a newbie in breeding, I am not a newbie to dogs. Some advice I can offer, are valid resourced answers from experience. BUT- only from MY experience.

I have heard many old time breeders "flap their gums" with nonsense too , and the hit on newbies on this forum is really sad. Anyone who posts some back to reality post, is classified as a newbie. I see a pattern with that. again, so sad. Anyone ever wonder where "SOME" newbies get their information? SOME of us have gotten it from OLD TIME breeders and when repeated amongst others, we just receive a stare like "where did you get that from".
(my husband does that too- tries to sound smart, gives off an answer, and when it's repeated- LOL....well- boy does it sound stupid.

Some old time breeders also follow what they were once taught. who is to say it is all right? perhaps if noone told them otherwise when they were first learning, they continued to believe it to be true, and then pass that on to some of us newbies? Now mind you, there are SOME out there - that have been breeding a long time, and not breeding right- and there are some that are clueless whether old or new.
And some of those probably or may have, gotten all their information from books or what they've read or what they've seen or heard. Doesn't make any one person right or wrong. It's up to all of us to make things right and make things better, and educate ourselves and each other. I've met alot of old timers who will openly admit that they never stop learning.

I agree with Dawn- take what you want and can get out of the forum opinions, and take it to someone you can trust with their response. Then, you make your choice, and live with that decision and some may learn from it the hard way.

I have learned alot over the years, from forums and email lists, and I have learned mistakes too. But I will not be told to sit quiet and never offer my experiences or my own advice until i pay my dues or have years under my belt. That is a pompous remark.

I am a newbie and I am proud of it.

Dear LabLover -

Don't let one missing tooth bother you. Chalk your experience last weekend to all-breed "fault" judging. Hang in there!

I'm curiouse, Has anyone else heard this. I was told that the missing teeth are preferred by hunters as it gives the dog a softer bite. Missing teeth creat a "hole" for the goose/duck neck to sit in. Myth or not (or correct or not) it's an interesting thought.

that missing a tooth could be caused by genetics or radiation (maybe x-rays) or chemical exposure while developing. More common in lines that are in-bred.

I have a boy with 3 (yes 3) missing teeth - I intend to use him myself and he's done quite well at the specialties and even done okay at all-breed shows. Do I wish he had all his teeth? Yes, but he's a nice enough dog that I'm willing to work with that.

Funny thing is, many of the top stud dogs, especially one used a LOT right now, are missing the usual 2 premolars on the bottom. Wonder why a lot of breeders are using these "defective" dogs? Guess these might be nice dogs with many other qualities worth passing on! Dogs don't walk on their teeth - I'd rather have a nice dog with a few missing teeth than a dog with full dentition with incorrect conformation.

David your response of "You can't lose type by always being a purest" is one of the best statements I have ever heard about breeding dogs. And I will say that Teddy is one of the most beautiful Typey Labs I have ever seen! Instead of counting teeth look at that dog as an ideal in type and balance.
Traci

I have had a dog with a missing tooth and yes at a time when I really would have liked a win. He put up the dog behind me and told me it was because of the tooth. So silly, I don't show any of my dogs to him now. But that being the only one with a tooth missing, I really don't want to add it to my lines so go for the dogs with full detention. JMO

I think what you meant to say is that you CAN lose type by being a purist.

May I join Ms Dedering's fan club - that was the most incisive post I've read in a long time, and it took gonads.

Fault judging isn't the monopoly of newcomers - it's easy, we can all zoom in on visible imperfections and give opinions. It's user-friendly, like a point-and-shoot camera and some people never get past that stage... even judges! Seeing the DOG, appreciating type and getting a grasp of overall quality without stumbling on bits and pieces requires a deeper understanding and a sense of perspective.

Because of its very nature, Perspective is elusive to newcomers. Perspective can only get a foothold through Experience... and Experience is one of the very rare creatures that embellishes with the wrinkles of Time. BTW I'd happily trade my wrinkles...

Breeder two ...
It would be helpful if you named the judge that wouldn't put up your dog with a missing tooth!
Or any others that anyone has come across.
We are always asking before shows what kind of dog a judge likes and that information is helpful!
Wish all judges were like Ms Dedering!!
Thanks

I believe judges from a working group background can be tooth fairies. I've seen some hold the dog's mouth open and look down into it counting teeth!

The way I look at it, missing teeth doesn't give the dog any pain and doesn't make it mean.

Judge was Stephanie Seabrook-Hedgepath. Hope I don't get in trouble for listing a judge's name

You're not saying anything bad. Just telling us not to waste our money showing to her if we've got missing teeth!

Thank you Lablover for disclosing the judges name.
You are not saying anything bad, just that she wants
to see full dentition. Same sort of info that is
shared among friends by word of mouth.
Thanks again.

Michael Faulkner if we can say it.

VERY well said, Laura. I don't want to flame newbies, per se, but the comment you made about the standard will fall on a lot of deaf ears here because they didn't live through it. I heard a group of newbies huddling at a Specialty and they were talking about not needing to study pedigrees anymore because between Optigen and VetGen you can find out what you need to know. I just walked away, shaking my head. I've read ahead within this threaded discussion, and a couple of things have struck me. There are a lot of newbies who reacted to some comments from experienced breeders, and in many of those posts they just validated what the experienced breeders had just said. I feel very strongly, that the moment you stop learning in this breed you are done. Michael, Laura, Maryanne, and others will tell you they still are learning I am sure. Maybe not constantly, but their minds are not shut. I'll get off my soapbox with one last thing. I'll add to Laura's list of problems people live with out of ignorance. My personal favorite: ewe necks mistaken for "nice reach of neck". I hear this one all the time - and sometimes from people who have been around long enough to know better.

I have to disagree with you about Michael Faulkner. One of our male dogs (who is also a CH)won twice under Michael Faulkner, one was a major. He is missing two opposing pre-molars.

Mike

Michael Faulkner has put up two of our girls who are also missing pre molars.

Thanks for naming them, it is nothing we do not say to each other anyway. Always helpful to know.

At a specialty last week the judge was actually measuring coupling, yikes!
Judge was Winnie Limbourne (Wingmaster)

Please be careful about naming names. Just because a judge looks at the sides does not necessarily mean they are a "tooth fairy". I always ask the exhibitors to show the whole mouth.

My understanding is that a Labrador Breeder Judge was reported to AKC and reprimanded by AKC for not checking for missing teeth.

Judges MUST check the full mouth during the examination and look for dentition because the standard lists it as a serious fault. How they weigh that information into their decision is another matter.

Maxine Beam has told me in the ring that she considers teeth to be important. She was referring to one of my dogs who has several missing teeth. I told her "Thank you; I'll remember that!" I would show to her again, but only if the dog has full dentition.

Referring to the line about culling several days ago, I was horrified when the canine dentist I took this dog to as a puppy implied that I might put her down because of the missing teeth. Apparently people in other breeds do this regularly enough that he thought it could be a possibility. He wanted me to give her to a friend of his if I were going to do that! She earned a JH and was well along toward her SH and had a major reserve in the breed ring when a field injury ended her career, but she never seemed comfortable with bumpers and was always mouthing them. I always wondered if the missing teeth were involved, but her son does that same thing, and he has full dentition, so I guess not. His trainer blames his muzzle, which is shorter than those of the field dogs he is used to working with, but I'm not convinced about that, either. I have only bred her to dogs with a history of full dentition. Some of the progeny have had missing teeth, but over half of the ones I have kept or seen have had full dentition. I expect that the problem may haunt me for several generations, but I find that it is so hard to get a dog with the type I want AND the working ability to go beyond the JH, that missing teeth are something I can live with.

Yes, it is a big deal. Labs should not be missing teeth.

Teeth are part of the overall dog.

How can you say it is a big deal...so you are telling me (Asolutely) you are going to give up TYPE (what a lab should look like) so you can have lab with all his teeth and be a lesser dog....

OK! I try to keep quiet on this form but....very frusterated when I read people giving wrong advise!

I own BISS Ch. Lenches Teddy Bear (13years old)Top Speaclty winning Labrador with 12 BISS! He also has won the Breed at Westminster. He is missing more teeth than probablly any Labrador out there and never stoped him from winning didn't change his mussle and has produced many champion children and grandchildren one being BISS Ch. Lubberline Martingale who has all his teeth! You breed for the whole Labrador! It is no different than a low tail set etc. Know your lines your working with...Breed type to type...use many of us as mentors. I keep my mouth shut on the form on most statements made in hopes new people will talk to breeders for the correct answers or just with time they will figure it out for themselves. Being in a breed long enough you will have everything happen to you. You can't loose type by always being a purest. It is important to learn lines from kennels and see what dogs produce and have to offer your lines. I love this breed and love educating people but statements like this on this form have to be adressed.

BY THE WAY TEDDY CAN OUT EAT ANY DOG OUT THERE WITH NO TEETH AND PICK UP A BIRD AND NOT RUFFLE A FEATHER! LOL

I totally agree that one must consider the whole dog when evaluating it. However, in a ring full of typey dogs, I find that several missing teeth can spoil a dog's profile expression and will make the difference in placing a dog in strong competition.

This is like show versus field. We all have a different view on what we accept in our breeding program. I don't want missing teeth. Don't want one bad elbow, don't want a hip that OFA fails then done by Penn hip to get it passed. Trying to go by the "rules" and not bend them. I know teeth are not that big of a issue for some. Just had rather not go there. If I had a great pup with a missing tooth sure I would keep it. Just breed to a dog that had full detention. There are many beautiful Labradors out there, fewer that pass all the clearances. JMO

This thread is very interesting and we try to follow these guidelines and watch/listen and learn as you always learn something each day.
Teeth are described in the standard as
strong and regular with a level mouth.
Most breeders have taken “level mouth”
to mean a scissors bite. Although a level
bite is acceptable it is not preferred. The
standard says nothing about undershot,
overshot, or misaligned teeth, but these
have always been considered by breeders
as serious faults in a retriever. Missing
teeth are also not mentioned in the standard.
It is not uncommon to see one or two
missing premolars in Labradors. In the
past this has not been considered by most
breeders to be a serious fault, but Canadian
breeders and judges are becoming
more concerned about missing teeth,
particularly if this involves more than one
or two premolars. Full dentition is preferred.
However, as in all things related
to the Labrador, the yardstick should be
how this will affect work in the field. The
experience of most hunters is that one or
two missing premolars does not affect
retrieving ability.
Without Labrador type there is no Labrador
Soundness is critical; showmanship an added bonus.

ESSENTIAL CONSIDERATIONS IN EVALUATING THE LABRADOR RETRIEVER
1. A POWERFUL, ATHLETIC, WORKING RETRIEVER
2. OUTLINE: SLIGHTLY OFF-SQUARE, COMPACT, POWERFUL
3. COAT: DOUBLE, HARD OUTER, DENSE SOFT UNDERCOAT
4. HEAD: STRONG, CLEAN, GENTLE EXPRESSION
5. TAIL: OTTER, ROUND, THICK, STRAIGHT, EXTENSION OF SPINE, CARRIED
LEVEL OR SLIGHTLY RAISED
6 . MOVEMENT: SOUND, POWERFUL
7. TEMPERAMENT: CONFIDENT, OUTGOING, FRIENDLY

LRCC
http://www.labrador-canada.com/lrccstd.pdf

OK! I try to keep quiet on this forum but....very frustrated when I read people giving wrong advice!

I own BISS Ch. Lenches Teddy Bear (13years old) Top Specialty winning Labrador with 12 BISS! He also has won the Breed at Westminster. He is missing more teeth than probably any Labrador out there and never stopped him from winning didn't change his muscle and has produced many champion children and grandchildren one being BISS Ch. Lubberline Martingale who has all his teeth! You breed for the whole Labrador! It is no different than a low tail set etc. Know your lines you’re working with... Breed type to type... Use many of us as mentors. I keep my mouth shut on the forum on most statements made in hopes new people will talk to breeders for the correct answers or just with time they will figure it out for themselves. Being in a breed long enough you will have everything happen to you. You can't lose type by always being a purist. It is important to learn lines from kennels and see what dogs produce and have to offer your lines. I love this breed and love educating people but statements like this on this forum have to be addressed.

BY THE WAY TEDDY CAN OUT EAT ANY DOG OUT THERE WITH NO TEETH AND PICK UP A BIRD AND NOT RUFFLE A FEATHER! LOL

There's missing a tooth, there's missing a couple of teeth, then there's missing a LOT of teeth. The sires I've chosen have full dentition. There are lots of typey, beautiful dogs out there.

There are some very important posts that go almost unanswered but this particular one has 973 views and 74 posts. Read what the original poster asked which was "Has anyone had a problem with a judge not putting up a dog because of one missing tooth?"

I wouldnt touch this on a bet, keeping my opinion to myself except for a great job done by Laura!