I was wondering how many of Lab owners and or breeders feed the raw diet. Any feed back would be appreciated. As well as any websites, and or great books. I am sending a litter of pups home in a few weeks and I am trying to decide on what to suggest to the new families. I have recently seen on this forum some controversy on this forum reguarding holistics and such. I would like to recommend a high quality food or even a raw diet for the puppy buyers. Any thoughts? I basically am asking for books or websites that I can research the topic. Thanks for the help in advance.

We feed Royal Canin to our puppies and recommend
it when the puppies go home.

Only a very small percentage feed Raw Diets to
their dogs and puppies. I personally think it
is risky. JMO

Also, when you send puppies home with new owners
do really expect them to adhear to your recipe?

I would worry that they may feed bones that can
get stuck in their intestines and also not getting
a well balanced diet.

I feed raw and start my puppies on ground raw food as well. I don't insist on the puppies going home raw but I do insist they go home on quality foods that don't contain grain. (note: all recalls have been grain related)I find that just by discussing the practice and not preaching it about half of my puppy buyers choose to take their puppies home on raw.

Here's a discussion group for Labrador people that feed raw.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LabradorRawFeeding/

I'm expecting a third generation raw fed litter next week and I'm thrilled about it.

RAW

I use a quality kibble like Innova, California Natural, Canidae, etc. (most are Human grade and don't have a lot of corn or wheat in them) and would worry about a no grain kibble for young dogs....a lot of protein there.

I do supplement with some raw and currently am adding this:

http://www.primalpetfoods.com/

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Replying to:

I was wondering how many of Lab owners and or breeders feed the raw diet. Any feed back would be appreciated. As well as any websites, and or great books. I am sending a litter of pups home in a few weeks and I am trying to decide on what to suggest to the new families. I have recently seen on this forum some controversy on this forum reguarding holistics and such. I would like to recommend a high quality food or even a raw diet for the puppy buyers. Any thoughts? I basically am asking for books or websites that I can research the topic. Thanks for the help in advance.

I have been feeding raw for 7 years and many of my puppy buyers have also chosen to. I think you might be surprised at how many people do now a days. Most of what people fear comes from lack of knowledge. With that being said, I don't think a breeder should recommend it unless they have been feeding it themselves for sometime and have done their homework. There are quite a few articles out there with wrong information and I would want to be sure where you were directing them to get their information was correct.

More wrong information..... My dogs don't get any grains only meat and veggies ( all protein) and I have never had a problem with growing dogs, just the opposite my dog's orthopedics have never been better.

Not to mention that high protein diets have been proven to NOT be a factor involved in growth related orthopedic disorders.
I've been feeding raw for years and have never had a dog fail clearances.

I'm not a breeder, but I have had Labradors for almost 20 years. I started feeding raw over 8 years ago, and I would never go back to kibble. This is not something you want to read about and recommend in just a couple of weeks. You want to know enough about the subject to feel comfortable with it yourself before recommending it to puppy buyers. I started out reading Give Your Dog a Bone by Ian Billinghurst and Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy R. Schultze. I've had a strong support system because a core group of raw feeders belong to my obedience club. I don't belong to any groups on the internet, but I know there are several very good ones. My suggestion would to do your own research to learn all you can to see if this how you want to proceed. Good luck.

do any of you worry about salmonella???????
jan hepper

We feed Royal Canin to our puppies and recommend
it when the puppies go home. Only a very small percentage feed Raw Diets to
their dogs and puppies. I personally think it
is risky>>

Royal Canin is just another commercial food that, incidently, was on the food recall list. I would be more concerned about that risk than feeding a raw diet. I supplement with raw, but do not feed just raw. Google "human grade", there are many quality foods that you could suggest. Adding mashed raw carrots, chicken, etc. to a high quality kibble would be great for your puppies. Read the ingredients label, that's the best way to decide.

I have been feeding raw for over eight years and my dogs thrive on it. Clean teeth, great skin, beautiful coats and overall great health. My cousin, Jan, and I read the book "Give Your Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst and couldn't put it down. It made perfect sense. Jan opened up a health food store for dogs and cats and only carries raw food or high quality kibble among other fun and safe produces for pets which all meet the standards for the Whole Dog Journal. She and I are fully satisfied feeding raw and our dogs love it. We feel it is the way dogs should eat, but it is not for everyone. People need to research and read lots of books and then become fully committed to feeding natural and raw. We don't worry about Salmonella. Dogs have very short digestive tracts unlike ours. After all, they lick themselves and other dogs, eat poop, eat dead stuff, etc. Dogs ate raw every since evolving from the wolf and remained strong and healthy.

Couldn't have said it better !! It's funny that people worry about salmonella from fresh natural foods, but don't think twice about giving their dogs some of the worst toxic ingredients that can be found in their dog's kibble. At least I know what I am giving my dogs.

Full Disclosure
I do have a store selling only raw diets and organic kibbles and supplements
Now I have fed a raw diet for several years and my dogs have never been better. I have 9 Labs and a token English Setter, all eat Bravo and AFS raw diet, I am careful to supplement with natural supplements. I am not worried in the least about the scare tactics used by many vets as to contamination by salmonella or e-coli. I keep all meats frozen or refrigerated and clean my dishes. I have many customers who had dogs with multiple problems, some quite serious and switching over to a more natural feeding program has made them well and happy dogs.
Every dog deserves the opportunity to eat the way nature intended whether it is a 4 pound Maltese or a 150 pound Mastiff. BTW more than 37% of all dogs are now fed a commercial or a home prepared raw diet.
I would not feed my wonderful Lab children any of the commercial foods mentioned here if they were free.
Yes it is more expensive and requires more meal planning than kibble but it is well worth it.

http://www.secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/index.html

6 Myths to feeding bones and raw food:



http://www.secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/crane.html

THank you for all the responses, greatly appreciated.
I do agree with practicing first, before recommending it........
But, still lots of great advice.
Thanks a bunch.

Your welcome and to the person, who ever you are, "by the other side", I was on that site you listed (http://www.secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/index.html ) a couple of years ago. I feel her take on raw food is nonsense. All I can say is that my dogs have had not one single problem for eight years and as my vet tells me, "The proof in in the pudding". He says I have some of the most healthiest dogs that come through his practice. He only sees us for x-rays, progesterone test and rabies vaccines. We have even had blood workups to see if things are looking as good on the inside as well as the outside and they are. He is all for the raw diet and minimal vaccines. All I can say is people need to do whatever they feel is best and what works for you and your dogs.

Nonsense?

"I feel her take on raw food is nonsense."

How can you argue with people that have been actually doing it for 8 plus years. That is a clinical study within itself! People have always been afraid of change and the unknown. What did people feed their dogs before the birth of commercial dog food? I am sure it was something much more natural and fresh.

As a veterinary nutritionist I have nothing against the raw diets if the food is complete & balanced AND WELL RESEARCHED. No testimonials. If it has worked for few, that's fine.

As far as I know, double blinded & controlled studies have not been conducted on the raw diets regarding the health benefits.

We should have faith in companies who conduct the research first and then formulate their food. Words like "Holistic, Natural, Pure, Ultra, No-grains (but contain potato as a source of starch)" sound good, but where are the studies showing the benefits? Putting together a pet food product is not a brain science. Moreover, putting big words like "Natural, Holistic... etc." on a label is a piece of cake. Doesn't cost a dime. These words are not defined and regulated by the state govt. Research costs thousands of $$$$.

The first principle of nutrition: "Body needs nutrients NOT ingredients." Doen't mean that ingredients are not important as ingredients provide the nutrients. Ultimately, the final delivery of the nutrients at the gut level and eventual absorption counts. Touting ingredients do not mean a thing.

One has to be careful in selecting the meat as the raw meat is susceptible to salmonella, E. coli and parasitic egg contamination. Meat (without bones) is devoid of calcium and unless supplimented it can cause orthopedic deformities.

While checking the recall list, I did notice that only Royal Canin products recalled were "Sensible Choice" and not the Lab food. Unfortunately the whole pet food industry was affected due to the melamine contamination.

Don't worry too much about food being unbalanced. It's only in the last 20 years that kibble has become so popular. Dogs have a history of a few thousand years on raw food and what would seem to be a whole lot less skin and liver problems. If we can feed our children - with a life expectancy close to 85 currently - surely we can feed our dogs for an average of 12 years. The body is a fantastic machine which would probably do a lot better job expressing itself if it didn't have to battle with our experiments in food chemistry. Doctors never cease to be amazed by the health of natives of areas with little to offer, but who are in tune with nature.

OP - what are you feeding the pups now? How are they doing on it? If they are thriving why aren't you recommending that food to your pup buyers?

"What did people feed their dogs before the birth of commercial dog food?"

Cooked food and table scraps.

" Dogs have a history of a few thousand years on raw food and what would seem to be a whole lot less skin and liver problems."

Dogs or wolves there is a difference. Vaccinations/enviroment is the likely culprit not cooked food.

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

A great site that answers many of the myths. There are many other great pages/links there as well.

As to Royal Canin. Not only Sensible Choice was included in their recall. You can see here that their veterinary diets were also recalled.

http://www.medi-cal.ca/pdf/EN%20Consumer%20Product%20Recall.pdf

And you won't find much research on raw diets because the big money for research comes from the big commercial food companies.

I am not a breeder. I have owned labs for 15 years. I also work at a reputable dog training facility.

From personal experience with raising puppies, and through working with many new puppy "parents," I have observed and felt how overwhelmed people are with a new puppy at home! The immediate concerns they have are potty training, and when the nipping/biting will stop. They are exhausted from lack of sleep, can't understand why their puppy isn't the trained Westminster dog they see on t.v, and literally are at the end of very frayed ropes. As much as they love them, many aren't even sure they want to keep Rover, and walk into class declaring so. Over and over, I've heard the same thing - they had no idea how much work a puppy is (and sadly, many times over, it's the lab puppies who are first to go into new homes or rescue. Heartbreaking!).

I know that on this forum, the majority of you love this breed with a passion. You take so much care to ensure you have healthy dogs, healthy puppies, and you do everything in your power to place them in loving, safe homes. Whether to feed RAW, kibble, homemade, or something else is such a moot point for new puppy owners! Give them advice as to how to potty train, feed on a schedule, how to re-direct inappropriate behavior, find a good training class, etc.. Make sure they are educated about the breed itself! Let the decision about RAW feeding come at another time, after research, reading and talking with nutritionists. In my opinion, unless you have a well written, balanced, coherent RAW menu, complete with a feeding schedule for new puppy buyers to put into place before puppy comes home - it won't happen, it will be scrapped within the first week, or it will be done improperly. Which is worse?

Success in raising your beautiful puppies to be a well mannered members of a family is much more than type of diet (which of course is important - no argument here). In the end, your puppy families will have to decide for themselves what works in their homes and with their belief systems. Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

Responding to JP:
"Don't worry too much about food being unbalanced. It's only in the last 20 years that kibble has become so popular. Dogs have a history of a few thousand years on raw food and what would seem to be a whole lot less skin and liver problems. If we can feed our children - with a life expectancy close to 85 currently - surely we can feed our dogs for an average of 12 years. The body is a fantastic machine which would probably do a lot better job expressing itself if it didn't have to battle with our experiments in food chemistry. Doctors never cease to be amazed by the health of natives of areas with little to offer, but who are in tune with nature."

Don't worry about food being unbalanced? It's statements like this one that gives countless people justification for feeding whatever they like. People do NOT have a life expectancy of 85 and our children in this country are OBESE, we are NOT doing a good job of feeding them. Dogs are not humans and have different food requirements anyway. Food handling practices and proper nutrition is a couple of reasons our life expectancy and dogs has risen over the decades. Only 12 years for your dogs? It isn't uncommon for labs to live 14-16 years old now. Dogs (and many other animals)in the wild have a much shorter lifespan than those kept in captivity. Feeding dogs (or children) what you like can keep them alive but they will not thrive. Man has been cooking over fire since caveman and dog was by his side (not wolf). Domestic dog is descended from wild canines that frequented discarded food from humans and their domestic dispositions have evolved in order to get food from man.

Puppy Love has it right. Give these puppies training, love and a good start and once they are grown (past puberty)let their new owners make the important decision (and take the responsibility) of what to feed. For those of you that guarantee your pups, are you confident enough that a person who has never fed raw will do it well enough that they won't inadvertently cause a health problem? Research your kibble choices, pick one and have your puppy buyers stick with it.