I have been reading on this Forum for several weeks the "strong" opinions of many people about breeding dogs with heritable defects. Against my better judgement, I have decided to comment on the subject. The following quotes are from Anne Traas, DVM DACT (a veterinary genetisist) who spoke a the recent The Society of Theriogenology breeder symposium.

" A breeding plan must be based on the goals of an individual breeding program, the overall health of the individual litters to be produced, and the health and divirsity of the breed as a whole. The strategy will very based on diseases and traits important to the breed, the test that are available, and the in heritance pattern of each trait or disease of interest. Thinking of all breeds of dogs as endangered species may provide a useful perspective. Most breed clubs do not allow new dogs into the registry. Therefore, the alleles found among reproducing dogs of a breed are all the alleles the breed will ever have, unless rare new mutations occur. mutations are rare, and while they may produce desirable traits, it is more likely that produce a disease, or have no affect at all on the breed"
"It is important to keep in mind that breeders are not to blame for causing mutation and, hence, do not cause disease in their dogs. The advice to " just start over with someone else's dogs" is ill-advised and can be harmful. Discontinuing the breeding of entire lines can be contributing to the loss of breed diversity. Individual breeders have dissimilar opinions on how their breed should appear. This is good for a breed because it encourages genetic diversity. Genetic diversity within a breed is important because the function of each portion of DNA in the genome is not understood. If genetic diversity is decreased, a desirable allele may be lost or the frequency of an undesirable allele may be increased"

I felt these statements were very profound, and many things need to be taken into consideration before blanketly removing dogs from a breeding program.
Also in reference to the comments that breeders are not doing any thing about genetic problems. When I started in Labs, the only screenings done on a regular basis were OFA hips and CERFs. Now we do hips, elbows, echo hearts, and do appropriate DNA testing. The incidence of hip dysplasia has been reduced the hard way, by years of breeding unaffected to unaffected. Because most diseases are polygenetic, it take alot of dedication on the part of breeder to make an affect this way. There will always be bad breeders who do unethical things, that will never change.
And now before I get off my high horse, two last comments. The only person (or breeding program) you can change is you or yours, and educate yourself, the information is available.

Thank you Lisa. That was very thought provoking.

Yes, I agree. I think it needed to be said.

I agree with a lot of this too, but having said that, also believe that important information IS NOT always available unless one is "in the know" and breeders can be making poor choices for matings.

thought I'd repost this up here since the OT is being lost at the bottom...

Isn't it sad how the word "Labradoodle" can prevoke a mile long thread and the words "health issues" and "breeding" get very little response...also my "TVD" thread gets one reply thus far.
very sad indeed...

This is why we will always have health issues, no one wants to discuss it.
Pity...

I was at the same meeting with Lisa and Anne Tras' topic was great--unfortunately, very few breeder's were there to hear it! It comes down to the old saying--DON'T THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER!
By understanding genetics is how we will eliminate those ugly diseases we deal with in our breed....not by eliminating potentially outstanding dogs because they carry a gene we don't like. I urge everyone to test their dogs for whatever DNA genes we can--there will be many more over the next few years now that the canine genome is completely mapped. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER---but it must be used correctly.

I took an open stand on this at our National Club's General Assembly a while ago, referring to it as "Kleenex" breeding. Wipe your nose with it once or twice and replace it with a clean one at the first sign of dirt... in the full knowledge that, given the time and the opportunity, the clean one is destined to be dumped in its turn...

Maybe it's a sign of the times that we prefer to replace rather than to repair. Tried-and-true breeding programmes are bulldozed, sometimes because of one little crack, in favour of new stock that may crumble in the first storm. Why is it that, while most breeders admit there is no such thing as a genetically clean dog, they believe a dog should be discarded if it produces a problem?

Is it because we want to fool ourselves that, with no physical proof YET to the contrary, we are using clean breeding stock? I guess breeding exposes us to heartache... and heartache is a lot easier to bear with a clear conscience.

I agree, but people need to be forthright about issues for this to work. All test results should be reported, not just the ones that make the dog appear sound. A dog with excellent hips looks promising until you later learn the unreported elbows were dysplastic. The devil you know is only better if you truly know that devil :-)

If you're in this long enough, you'll see everything and more. I agree that it is frustrating to find that something has been swept under the rug, and worse yet to find that an out and out lie has been told regarding what has occurred or not occurred in a breeding program. I've been burned by that - as have a lot of people I know.

Having said that, I believe that a lot of the information that is out there is not openly discussed and broadcast - especially on forums like this one - because of a pretty simple reason. Breeders who have been in this long enough to pay (and repay) their dues feel that their peers can probably take the information and make an educated decision on how to use it because of the breadth of their knowledge, forged by years of success and heartbreak. They also know that the same information in less informed hands can be, and often is, used in a very destructive fashion much like common gossip. I have personally heard people who are on their first generation of dogs, maybe having bred one litter, talking about how a certain breeder produces unsound dogs, or dogs with bad eyes, or dogs with heart problems, etc., etc., ad nauseum. And other new people stand there and listen to this, and nod their heads in acceptance of these "facts". Fifteen years ago, breeders I know had to clean out their breeding programs because of the discovery of PRA carriers in their breeding stock - and for some of them this was the second or third time. Today, most newer people don't even comprehend what those times were like because we now have Optigen testing available to guide our breeding decisions on that single condition.

About fifteen years ago, that PRA "epidemic" surfaced because some offspring of the most influential stud dog of that day began showing up with PRA. Now, quiz time - all of you oldsters be quiet for a minute. Newbies: who was that dog, and how is his positive influence felt to this day?

Assessing any stud dog's contribution to our breed often requires hindsight. The dog Greg mentioned is a prime example. At the time of the "explosion", his name was dirt, not only among newcomers or gossip mongers but also among many respected long-time breeders, who should have known better.

Problems surface more or less early during a stud dog's active life, whereas the positive lasting impact that same dog may have had can take generations to be recognised.

Greg, you are making us feel our age! I was present for that particular "closet cleaning", at the time having recently bred to a lovely son of "that" dog. As my pup grew, I was patient, waited until the dust settled and happily kept a wonderful bitch from the dog line in question. Thankfully, now we have a great resource in helping to make informed breeding decisions and can avoid the type of reaction so frequently seen during that time....at least for that issue.

And yes, he was a tremendous positive influence on the Labrador breed.

Isn't it wonderful that some breeders had the fortitude to keep their offspring from "that dog" and forge ahead. It's because of them that we have some of our best dogs today. I will forever grateful to them. Yes, I remember "the dog" and the cleaning out.

I will be brave a guess that is was Receiver.

And Yes a alot of great producer came from him. And the lab world would have missed out on so many great dogs if he was never used. I have several dogs with him in their pedigree. But that is PRA and we have DNA testing now for that. Plus I do not mean to sound mean but a blind dog is not in pain and can live a good life.



My main concern is the rise in ED. It is such a devasting disease. To many breeder withhold results.
I am looking for a stud dog for a girl who's sire has a Grade I Elbow (results not published). I did not know he had grade I elbows when I purchased her. Prelims were normal. She has normal elbows but I want to make sure the sire I chose has a good history of sound elbows. And I am having trouble with so many missing elbow results.

We need to put our egos aside and publish results good or bad and then let the breeder decide what they can live with. ED is very painful and expensive and not fair to pass this on to puppy buyers or the poor pups.

I am also upset that health posts like this get ignored and others have over 50 post.

Everyone tells newbie to wait until you have been breeding for 10 or more years and you will change your mind. On this issue I do not think so, that would mean turning my back on the soundness on my dogs and I am not willing to do that.

JMHO

"I am also upset that health posts like this get ignored and others have over 50 post."

Well, this post has 13, and it's predecessor has 20. So I wouldn't say it is being ignored. I think what you are seeing is that it takes a certain amount of knowledge about these health issues, and almost none (by comparison) to chat on about Labradoodles, Silver Labs, etc.

Good guess, BTW....

Yes, yes , yes, yes, and yes ten more times. So right on!!!!! We cannot ignore genetic problems like the awful elbow dysplasia but since we have no way of knowing A. if it is totaly genetic and B. If so who's a carrier and who isn't . So any decision you make in your breeding program is just a shot in the dark with little info. but you have to keep doing it. Want to really make a difference. Lets find a Vet or Genetic organization who wants to research ED in Labradors and start pouring the money to their research- that is how we got the optigen pra test. Although you would probably have a hard time finding someone interested in doing the research because many feel it is not genetic, and because it is believed to be polygenetic which makes the task more difficult if not impossible. However I'm no geneticist so perhaps there is one out there who would like to speak to this.
Also Greg I believe it was, is so correct when he stated that many long time breeders with a lot of knowledge are willing to share what they know with their peers but don't dare say it to those who are new and it is because they have watched people, who like it was stated are on their first generation of Labs, spout misinformation about every stud dog. I think they believe it makes them sound knowledgable. It really floors me when I hear some of these stories that have absolutely no basis in truth. So there are two parties responsible here, the breeders who know and are reluctant to tell, and those who get the information and abuse it in the worst way. And a major part of their abuse is that they take the information and then totally believe that dog should never be bred but will breed to the dog that has the same or similar problem but nobody has ever told them it exists. Therefore they prove that the breeder who keeps his/her mouth shut is the winner.
Judy
Judy

"a blind dog is not in pain and can live a good life."

NOT.

PRA affected dogs can get severe pain caused by glaucoma, necessitating the removal of the eyeball. That's not to mention the pain of bumping into things or falling or the emotional pain and confusion. My PRA affected boy loved to hunt and work, and now has to be confined to a small area behind a baby gate so that he does not hurt himself bumping into or falling over things, even other dogs and the water bowl. He loves to travel, but gets panicky if he is outside of his crate in the car. He has gotten lost in the house - most recently stuck in the corner of a room behind a recliner, unable to figure out how to get out, and since he isn't a barker, he had to wait until we found him. Bear lives a relatively comfortable life, but I wouldn't call it good, just as a prisoner lives a comfortable life, but imprisonment is not a good life.

There is no medication or surgery that will repair or even improve his condition.

I don't intend to diminish the pain and suffering of dogs affected by other genetic problems, but do not fool yourself thinking that PRA isn't a terrible fate for a dog.

Thank God for the PRA genetic test.

Judy,

I want to say thank you for all the advice that you give on this forum. I would love to hear your answers to the questions posted ahile back regarding asking an old time breeder. I am not say you are old but you have been breeding for a long time.

Do you think that most top stud dog owners will be truthful when I inquiry about using their stud with my bitch?

When I call and send a copy of clearence and pedigree and her picture, are they going to be honest and say their dog would not be best because I might be doubling up on a problem? Or are they going to keep quiet about the problem because they do not want a newbie to know what problems might be lurking in their pedigree? Or do they just turn you away because they are over booked at that time and never let on there could be a problem?

What can I do as a newbie, in an area without a lot of Lab breeders, to learn what I need about finding the right stud dog?

Lisa said "The only person (or breeding program) you can change is you or yours, and educate yourself, the information is available.

I would love to educate myself but were do you find the information if breeders do not release there not so good information?

Newbie wanting to learn more

Newbie 2: What you do, is you find a breeder with a long established solid reputation for ethical practices (that is not necessarily the same thing as agreeing with your pre-conceived notions) , and you cultivate them as a mentor by showing them that you respect their opinion; by asking intelligent, thought provoking questions that don't even hint at having an agenda behind them; by not arguing that they are wrong because you just heard or read something different; and above all not giving them any cause to think that something they tell you in confidence is going to get spread around. I could go on, but I think there will be some other responses here that probably will say it better. If you're really wanting to learn and are sincere you will find that person. If not, you'll get found out rather quickly. You might start by not posting anonymously, or if that doesn't work for you then using private email and being totally open. Good luck in your journey.

Newbie2:
As far as stud dog owners, I can only speak for myself. If you wanted use one of our stud dogs and had a specific problem in your lines and were trying to breed away from it, we would recommend one dog over another. We would not just blanketly look at you bitch's pedigree and say there is a problem so don't breed to this dog. It is part of your homework as a breeder to know the strengths and weaknesses of your line. This involves having a good relationship with the breeder you start out with. I do not feel it is my place to dictate to someone on how to breed their dog. Obviously we do ask for appropriate clearances on all bitches. If you were to call and speak with us one on one, I feel we would be honest with anyone about issues in our lines. Unfortunately, as Gregg stated, information gets missused alot. For every one person who uses the the information appropriately, there are probably 50 who don't. If you start winning on a regular basis, they really go after you.
As to breeding genetic problems, every breeder has to make their own decisions. There are no clean lines, only ones you know about and the ones you don't. You have to decide which is the worst evil, but attempt to breed away from most problems, knowing in the back of you mind that you will never breed problem free dogs. Labrador breeders as a whole are one of the most honest groups out there. Breeding, unfortunately is alot trial and error. This is why most people are out in five years. It takes alot of fortitude to stay in for the long run.
Lisa

Lisa...that is exactly what Annie Cogo used to tell me "As to breeding genetic problems, every breeder has to make their own decisions. There are no clean lines, only ones you know about and the ones you don't. You have to decide which is the worst evil, but attempt to breed away from most problems, knowing in the back of you mind that you will never breed problem free dogs. Labrador breeders as a whole are one of the most honest groups out there. Breeding, unfortunately is alot trial and error." And it is so true. The devil you know is so much better than the devil you don't.

Thank you all for your responses

Greg,

I usually do not post anonymously but with some of the facts I provided I was trying to protect the breeder and stud dog of my bitch.

I can understand not wanting to talk openly about certain problems on an open forum. But I still wish breeders would send films to OFA and release information good or bad. Then maybe we could get a better handle on ED and HD.

I think in my quest for a stud I will look to an established kennel, so that I can get help making the best decision for my girls.

I was told by a breeder judge (different breed) who taught my first class that showing and breeding was not for those with thin skin.

I also believe that most Lab breeder are great but I have also seen those that are not so nice. I learned to listen nicely but not to believe everything I here.

Again, thank you all for your comments

Newbie2 this time

I have heard of patella problems lately, has anyone had this problem crop up? I do know that last year there was a seminar in the Midwest, Fran Smith,DVM spoke on the problem and from the people that I talked to they were actually able to see this problem in the movement of different labradors?
Does anyone know if this is a recessive gene or what?
Should we be x-raying the petalla now?

Many vets typically check patellas when they do a physical exam on a dog. To OFA patellas, you do not need xray.

Speaking of patellas, I had my 7 week old litter in yesterday for their first shots. The vet checked them over well for patella movement. She said she is seeing a lot of dogs with this problem. Luckily she said all my pups were good.

Judy

( "Also Greg I believe it was, is so correct when he stated that many long time breeders with a lot of knowledge are willing to share what they know with their peers but don't dare say it to those who are new and it is because they have watched people, who like it was stated are on their first generation of Labs, spout misinformation about every stud dog. I think they believe it makes them sound knowledgable. It really floors me when I hear some of these stories that have absolutely no basis in truth." )

I believe this is because newbies (I'm one) are in a quandry. Often times you try to make conversation with a breeder you don't know at a show, and if you tell them up front you are new to the game or thinking about getting into conformation and breeding, they really don't seem interested in spending much time talking. Yes, I know some of them may be waiting for their time in the ring, or are watching the competition or perhaps are stud shopping and don't want or need the distractions. So, I'm guessing the newbie might feel slightly compelled to try and have an educated conversation with a breeder, probably on a topic that is really over his or her head.

Sometimes its darn near impossible even to get responses from mentors or people we even know let alone someone you approach for the first time. It is unfortunately one of those darned if you do or don't things.

I often look at some of the posts on these forums and see where it appears that a breeder is stating as an absolute an experience based on one individual dog, if you know what I mean. As inexperienced as I am, I take such comments with a grain of salt until I see or hear similar claims again and again.

I also see newbie2's point by not wanting to defame his breeder. I have often prefaced questions and comments by saying 'a breeder told me,' so as not to cause hard feelings, malign a breeder or appear to be a gossip. Often times I'm just trying to find something out based on what someone else told me, no matter how ridiculous it sounds.

I don't know you from Adam but I know you've been breeding dogs for ' a while' and therefore must be a mentor to a lot of people, many who have become successful in their own right at breeding Labs. It would be great if there were more mentors like you out there...and if there was more time to spend with the ones out there who are willing to lend an ear. I enjoy reading your posts and replies, by the way. I've owned Labs for most of the last 40 years. Thank you for all you have done for the breed.