I have an uber nice male pup that’s the good news the bad news is that the sire was bred at 15 months and had preliminaries of good and now at 2 has mild HD.
The question is would you continue to run on the uber nice male puppy or cull him from your program and sell him as a pet? Just wondered what this criterion would incline other breeder to do?
He’s one of the most correct and handsome male pups I have ever seen and of course that is my opinion and he could change a lot in the next 17 months.

Soundness is #1 with me. I would NOT keep him in a breeding program, no matter how "nice" he is because he isn't sound.

MK

How do you know the puppy won't turn out OFA Excellent? Also, how do you know that the OFA mildly dysplastic rating for the sire wasn't from a bad X-Ray. I'm all for soundness...but don't think you should throw him out just yet, especially if your not expecting anything new for a while.

I also bred to a male who was prelim'd good at 15 months and mild HD at 2. I did keep a male from that litter who is now 4 and OFA Good, was Excellent at 15 months. He has produced many litters (10) and I have not had one single HD in his gets, his oldest being 2 years old, youngest being 10 months.

I wouldn't throw out the baby out with the bathwater.

Some good thoughts.

MK, at this point my puppy is most certainly very sound, it is his sire that has HD not him.

My misunderstanding..I thought you were asking about the dysplastic dog.

MK

This is were honesty need to come into play. Did they post the final results with OFA?

I am not saying you need to throw your boy out but if I am looking for a stud I want to know the OFA history of your boy.

If I have a sound girl and the sire of your boy had mild HD but his offspring all came back good, I might use him. But information good or bad needs to be there for me to look at. I could than weigh the option of for myself. But I might have a girl who has a questiable background, so I would really want a sound stud with a sound background for her. And if the information is missing I run the other way.

As I have said in another post breeders need to be honest about problems in the dogs pedigree, so that we/I can make the right decisions for my/our dogs. I am not saying I would never use a dog that has thrown problems but I need to know if he has incase there is the same problems in my pedigree. I would not want to double up on it.

Every one says look at the whole dog but how can you when they hide bad results

Back to your question:

How old is your boy? Does the sire show signs of HD? How are his(sire) siblings? How are his get so far? These are all questions I would look at when making a decision. If he was the only one affected in his litter, I would most likely wait it out.

Good luck with your decision and please be honest with all results.

I would keep your pup long enough to do pre lims. The sire might have had a small injury. Look at as many family members as you can on OFA. Don't know why so many want to use these young boys so quickly. And I like to even wait till 3 years. Let someone else take the chances. But each dog is different. Give yours a chance.

Many years ago I kept a male that was injured in a jumping accident, his prelims were fine but he came up with mild,poll of 2, and fair by the 3rd, on OFA. He had already been bred and I kept a female, she is sound , her kids are sound. The dogs mother, full sister and her get are sound as well as half brothers and sisters as well.
This dog has never shown any signs of lameness,is highly athletic and has an incredible drive from the rear. I would not keep and unsound dog, having said that I have seen many an OFA clear dogs with unsound movement(to my well practiced eye, I've had horses for over 20+ years and ridden for 35+) so I know when an animal isn't moving soundly or correctly. You still have to look at the whole picture, if this dog didn't have the layback and length of upper arm I want I wouldn't have kept him, but he does and while I don't expect any one else to want to use him the option is still there for me if I ever choose to use him again.He is my heart dog and for that I would never let him go. In the meantime he is my most wonderfearl handsome boy and he knows it!!!!!

Um, who said the pup wasn't sound????

Been there, done that.........would most certainly keep this boy, there are many other reasons he may NOT make the grade later. JMHO

My pup is 17 months old, he shows no signs of hip problems yet. He's very athletic and lays like a frog.
His sire's siblings and family tree are all good or excellent with a few fair. Sire has only had 3 litters and they are not old enough to ofa yet. He is the only one affected in his litter that I can pin down as someone said "honesty" is a problem with some breeders
Bev, you do make a great point, so many other things could knock him out of the running than his hips!

A newbie question then, if you would enlighten me.

For those who would keep this puppy in your breeding program?

WHY ON EARTH DO WE DO CLEARANCES THEN?

I thought it was to rule out those unworthy of genes being replicated. If this truly was the case, then the genes this dog would be passing on would belong to a dog who was Grade 1.

Why do we do clearances if the results do not matter, what is more important? Type? There are a million typey dogs out there who pass clearances, or sires have passed clearances.

I agree, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but who'd want to bathe in that water in the first places.

This is yet ANOTHER reason why I would NEVER and yes, I may be a newbie, but you have to draw the lines somewhere, NEVER breed on prelims.

Where are this puppy's littermates? Has the sire been used more then once? How do you explain to the owners of pet puppies in the litter that their dogs may be at a genetic disadvantage?

At least when results come back unfavorable, the least you can say is "I did the best I could'.

I know newbies should be seen and not heard, but I feel I know enough (having had a dysplasic puppy) to say I would definitely neuter and place him and any other littermates you may have kept, and look at the greater good.

How has puppies out of said mild sire scored? I would rather keep this puppy if he is producing soundly than keep a puppy from a breeding to a OFA GOOD sire that is producing puppies that have a high precentage of OFA fails. That is why we do clearances- to see trends not snapshots.

Your thoughts are very nearsighted and I'm not being mean. Just as Judy Heim spoke of TVD and PRA in a previous thread, please read it.
A lot has to do with siblings and bloodlines.
I know of dysplastic dogs being bred and they are not producing dysplastic puppies. I'm not condoning this nor am I condoning breeding before finals but the vast majority of breeders DO breed their boys before 2!

I have a male who as a young man before his clearances at 2 (I did not do prelims) injured his left hip. His PennHip results came back as DJD in this one hip. I took him out of my breeding program. His still my baby, my heart. and ever so gorgeous. i admit I don't concider him specials material. He has a text book, head, topline tailset, angulation, very well balanced, moves gorgeous. He is a bit lean and high on leg for the shows. I concider his issues 'enviromental' however I wasn't willing to take the risk in my breeding program, even though there are quite a few OFA excellents in his line, nothing less then a good back quite a few generations.

This brings up a subject I have been curious about.
PennHip vs OFA. I see most of you refer to OFA. My vet (the best in my area) has me sold on PennHip. I mean breeding to the top 50% we would be bound to get better and better and soon things that pass now won't later. Anyhow I am curious about PennHip ratings and OFA ratings how they correlate. My bitch came back a disapointing 60% Pennhip, and a fine OFA good. I know a kennel that does both, none of her dogs pennhip below 70% and all are ofa Excellent. so if 70% + is OFA Excellent and 60% is ofa good, Would OFA fair pass his PennHIp?

This is just the way I operate and my mind works, but had the possibility of him failing his finals entered your mind before you performed the breeding (or bought the puppy)? If so, what did you decide to do then about it?

How much of a quandry is it, really? You were willing to buy the puppy with the sire as an unknown; why would the "known" change anything about what you've already done? If anything, you're in a BETTER situation now as you know the hip results on the sire--before, you didn't even know if he'd have final x-rays done at all (i.e. he died, stolen, co-ownership dispute, etc.) and had only a guesstimate of what his final results might be.

I guess I'm saying that's something I would've decided when I did the breeding or bought the pup because I knew it was a risk, not something that I would need to chew on later. If it had been me, I wouldn't have done the breeding or bought the pup in the first place because it takes so much more for a boy to make it, and I don't see myself breeding on prelims and I certainly wouldn't put money out to get a boy whose sire didn't have finals.

I would NOT cull the puppy yet. Take a look at your boy at 2 yrs. First of all, the OFA x=ray system is flawed as such.

The puppy could have been merely over anesthiesed and the joint shows LAXITY not necessarily a poorly conformed hip joint.

Don't get too excited. Your puppy could be excellent, be a great producer

Your right on that one, why are breeders in such a hurry to breed on prelims?

Well I agree and I would not through the offspring of a dysplastic dog out, however I would not breed the dysplastic dog himself either.
I too, know of a dysplastic dog being bred (perhaps its the same one?) and I know he IS producing HD, just maybe our information sources are different?

The pup is not dysplastic. His sire came back as Mild after passing prelims at 15 mos.

For the question on PennHip and OFA correlation. PennHip is not a pass fail system. You asked if an OFA fair would pass his pennhip. YEs, he would be assigned a DI number. It is the breeder's decision where to draw their line as to DI numbers that are acceptable or not.

Secondly, PennHip is not a Peer Reviewed system, they have their data, but will not share it with the veterinary community for their review. Thirdly, their is no database to help move the breed in the right direction and breeders are not jumping on to give you enough options in males to maintain type.

Why are they not jumping on? Why is the vet communtiy not knocking down the door that PennHip is the best thing out there? Well one orthopedic specialist brought up that there is no way to standardize the amount of pressure put on the joints when using the fulcrum to look at the laxity of the joints. You are not going to EVER convince me (or him) that a 200 lb male vet will put the same amount of pressure as a 100 lb female vet- or that the pressure put on my heavy boned labradors is the same amount as the fine boned whippets.

And finally there has been no post evaluation look at the joints to prove that the examination does not permanently injure the joint in some way. Yes this would be intensive tests on a control group of subjects, and yes these type tests are troublesome and expensive. But IF this system is so great why did they (PennHip) not want to prove the rumblings they heard about injury false.

Yes, OFA is flawed, but I do not have the wool pulled over my eyes with PennHip either.

"Your thoughts are very nearsighted and I'm not being mean."

And I do respect your opinion, but I have to ask, are they nearsighted only because you do not agree?

I may be a bit hypothetical, however I honestly would like to know how generations down the line, if you breed your boy, you explain to pet people why their puppies are dysplastic, or do we just shut our eyes and pretend we were doing the best because this boy is very typey.

I think this is being farsighted.

I want to know when all of the 'start with the very best foundation you can afford and do better' advice ends and the 'breed them because they are typey and winning regardless of what they may carry genetically' begins.

Do what you are comfortable with, I just want to know how it would be justified.

Not that i've ever intentionally bred a dysplastic dog but think about this...your saying it's not ok to breed this dog knowing that his sire is dysplastic but is it ok to breed a dog that is clear on all his clearances yet produces offspring that end up dysplastic? You can breed good dogs with the best of clearances and still end up with offspring that don't pass and visa versa.
Aloha,
Jackie

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Replying to:

"Your thoughts are very nearsighted and I'm not being mean."

And I do respect your opinion, but I have to ask, are they nearsighted only because you do not agree?

I may be a bit hypothetical, however I honestly would like to know how generations down the line, if you breed your boy, you explain to pet people why their puppies are dysplastic, or do we just shut our eyes and pretend we were doing the best because this boy is very typey.

I think this is being farsighted.

I want to know when all of the 'start with the very best foundation you can afford and do better' advice ends and the 'breed them because they are typey and winning regardless of what they may carry genetically' begins.

Do what you are comfortable with, I just want to know how it would be justified.

Don't forget there is a significant environmental (largely nutritional) factor in HD.

Also, consider the following chart:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/ofa-mating.html

Your pup has approximately an 85-90% chance of being normal. If the sire had been good, your pup has an 87-93% chance of being normal.

Don't get rid of him yet.

Don't get rid of your pup, wait and see. Those are very good percentages. "Stuff happens" but if the rest of the family is good or better then it just happened to the stud puppy someone used not the whole family and your pup. Alot jump to use these young boys. And others pay later.

personally i would run him along and see what he is at 24months.. theres so many hurdles to pass and this is just one of them..
i have learned to never say never when breeding, you never know when a situation might arise that you might have to eat your words
im sure if we all went back in our pedigrees on the dogs we have there would be some that didnt pass one thing or another
thank goodness we have new tests available nowdays for testing.. not like when i started ..
if the sire to this puppy has mild HD what were the rest of his littermates? i would rather breed to this mild HD dog whos littermates where mostly good or excellents. than to an excellent dog whos littermates where only fairs and fails..LeeAnne

"i have learned to never say never when breeding, you never know when a situation might arise that you might have to eat your words"


You are right LeeAnne, but I can 100% say that I will NEVER breed to a dog on prelims and I will NEVER breed to a dog who does not have at least 2 generations clear. Period. That is my preference.

Like I said, lose one who can't stand at all at 18 months and things that seemed so important don't anymore.

I obviously know that breeding clear dogs isn't a guarantee, but in my opinion, it is the least one owes to the breed. Do the best you can with the information presented. I just don't feel safe doing otherwise.

If I know the dog has produced or is dysplastic, NO THANKS. Thats my choice. Same as breeding to dysplastic dogs is yours.

Betterment of the breed and all that.

we all are intitled to our opinions thats what makes us all so different..
ive never bred to a dog only on prelims .. as the situation has never arised here...
tests results are tools we use in our selections of breeding partners
ive seen certified parents produce litters with over half affected with HD,, you have to look at the whole picture,, not just breeding to tests only IMO.. LeeAnne

Personally, I would say a breeding of a dysplastic dog in the hands of a knowledgeable and conscientious breeder who knows their lines, is much safer than a breeding from a newer breeder with clear dogs who has little idea what is behind them.

THAT is what is meant by better the devil you know. Tests are for knowledge, not necessarily for passing/failing.

When you start out, everything seems to be in black in white. The more you learn, the less you know and suddenly there is much more grey area and you are surprised that you are making decisions you thought you never would. That is not because winning is more important, it is because diversity is important and if you are waiting for a clear line, you can throw everying you have out for the next twenty years and still have nothing to breed. Some dysplastic dogs should be bred and some maybe shouldn't. But that decision is based on much more than the test results...it is based on the lines, what the dog has to offer and what his relatives have produced.

The same applies to dogs who pass OFAs too...just because they pass doesn't mean they are necessarily safe. There are lots of OFA clear dogs I wouldn't use because of their lines/relatives. Others may, but they have different bitchess that bring different things to the table than mine, so that is their business.

Just my two cents

"Just breeder" i couldnt agree with you more..

Well,we can make whatever decisions we want. But, what gets me is it is not the person breeding having to live with bad outcomes. It is small children having to see a dog suffer, I just don't take chances like breeding on prelims. If someone else can that is their business. Some people just need to keep their noses behind their own fence when making judgements. Nobody's perfect.

I don't think this breed needs "to be better" just cared for.

While everyone is screaming about breeding to dogs just on prelims, they are merrily importing dogs whose parents have foreign clearances. Guess what? The vast majority of them are done at 1 year of age, but are finals there. That's no different than breeding on passing prelims here and never redoing them when the dog turns 2. Take a look at all the foreign dogs' names in your pedigree and ponder that little conundrum.

Excellent point!!!