I have went through the archives here and found where one person was using Baytril and one person using Clavamox. Out of those that do routinely use them on your girls, what are you using and what protocol are you following? We have missed the last 5 girls with quantative progesterone testing and semen evaluations at the repro specialist who pretty much shrugs their shoulders as I keep writing out checks to them! My local vet is going to work with me to see if this will improve the situation.

I just used Doxy , for 3 weeks , bred two novice bitches , too soon to tell .

Well good luck to you on them. Do you know what your dosage was? I was going to compile all this informatin for my vet and figure out the route we want to take.

I'm surprised the repro vet did not recommend a fertility workup for your girls, that definitely sounds like what you need.
Just giving antibiotics willy-nilly without doing any testing because someone on the internet said it worked for them would be very irresponsible, and could potentially harm your bitches. I understand you are working with your regular vet, but the regular vet may not have the guarded culture neccessary to find out what kind of organisms, if any, your girls have in their reproductive tracts, and may not have the repro knowledge to do a thorough workup. Most regular vets don't.
A guarded culture would be the first step towards finding out the reasons for infertility. Treating with some random antibiotic without knowing why can actually select for certain kinds of antibiotics to grow, and can inhibit natural flora. Your girls may have a specific, resistant bacterial infection, a mycoplasma infection, or something else not even related to microorganisms.
Yes it costs money for diagnosic testing, and maybe that's why the repro vet was not willing to go further, as maybe they sensed your reluctance to go about it the right way due to money constraints.
I've found the best way to deal with money constraints with vets is to be forthcoming about it, but also realize that you may need to bite the bullet to get some real helpful diagnostic information, if that's what the person with the extensive education and experience in this field is recommending. JMHO

I did not ask opinions on IF I should do it, I asked for those that are doing it to share their protocols.

Face it many of the long time, large scale breeders are having problems and are dosing their dogs with results. This goes across many breeds, not just ours! Your judgemental attitude is what snuffs out longtime breeders willingness to share information that people are always griping about. And no, money is no object if you read my original post. I never questioned the vet, but there comes a point where the same action repeated over and over expecting different results is the utter definition of insanity.

This is no difference in this and a vet that routinely puts dogs on antibiotics prior to teeth cleaning. And yes there are vets that do that!Antibiotics are not harmful to dogs. You are worrying about resistance, but that is being weighed into the equation.

So back to the original plea for sharing of information...

My bitch missed last time - so I am using 500 mg of Doxycycline twice a day as recommended by another breeder.

Also too soon to tell here as I will breed her in a week or so. But she has been on the Doxy for 6 days.

Question? Do you continue after the breeding? If so, how long? My breeder friend says yes, for 1 week post breeding. Just curious as too what others are doing.

TIA

Cephalexin, 500 mg twice a day, from day one of estrus thru end of pregnancy. Have had misses doing this also; also ran the micoplasma culture test - all came back normal. Young, healthy and fit bitches. Bred according to the progesterone tests.

Could it be a fault with the progesterone tests or the labs?

I thought the same thing (about the labs) and switched to another lab. Still missing.....

136 mg Baytril, 1/2 tab morning, 1/2 tab evening. Start with the 1st day of heat and continue for 10 days. Usually never a miss when doing this.
I have also heard of some breeders using Cephelexin, 500mg, 1 morning 1 evening, starting first day of heat and continue for 10 days. Or use Amoxicillin 500mg, 1 morning, 1 evening. for 10 days.

Thru the end of pregnancy? Wouldn't that harm the pups during development ? I wouldn't dose past the second week after breeding if it were necessary to use antibiotics after the bitch has been bred.

"Antibiotics are not harmful to dogs."

Um, what vet school did you graduate from?
Or, better yet: What planet are you from????

Those people who just dose their dogs antibiotics without knowing why are setting up your dogs for resistent bacteria. And do you know the physiology behind using antibiotics on potentially pregnant bitches?
This thread is crazy! Whatever happened to consulting a veterinarian for medical advice?
DO NOT use the Forum as a substitute for medical treatment or advice, that's Internet 101!

OK here is what I did in order ot get my girl pregnant this time.

2 months before she was due to come into season I did a complete thyroid planel on her... if hte counts were all on the high side of normal great... Also at this time I wormed her with panacur.

Then 1 month before she was due I did a complete health checkup on her... full blood work up as well.
If everything was good great..

The day she came in season I did a culture of her... it just so happened to come back a little high on ECOLI... So, ASAP put her on Clavamox. Then did progestrone testing starting on day 5 did it every other day til she was ready.. Matter of fact I did chilled with that new chill5 mini tube extender... She became pregnant !. Clavamox seems to be one of the only SAFE antibiotics to give a pregnant girl. Doesage that my vet said first 10 days 1 - 375 pill 2 time a day. ONCE she is breed then 1 - 375 pill once a day for the duration of the pregnancy. This seems to have worked as she is huge !right now and has another 2 weeks to go.

Hope this helps.

I am not against the antibiotic plan, nor have I tried it, but my girls are missing also, in fact three missed last year. I do think that if antibiotics are the cure for all of our conception misses then something else is going on and we need to find out what that is. The antibiotics are a bandaid for an underlying problem. Wish I knew where to start looking!!!

To "Um what planet are you from" if this thread bothers you so much then stop reading it!

Interesting...5 different antibiotics have been recommended here for a cure for infertility!!!
So....which one is right?!
Do all you breeders recommending specific antibiotic treatment know what organisms your bitches had? Do you know why/if the antibiotics even worked when you started the course and did you know how long the course should be and why?
So, again, which antibiotic should this person treat her dog with and why?

Good point! Why are we always self medicating our dogs? What makes us think that there is a flaming infection or something unless we do cultures and a complete work up at the repro vet, notice I said "Repro Vet" My thought is that it is cheaper in the long run to just throw them on the antibiotics and if they take, great, but what happens the next time or with the next bitch?

Maybe we need to blame Global Warming?????

I had lots of misses too and started putting the girls on 1-500mg pill twice a day of amoxi (which is one of the few antibiotics i've been told by the vet is safe to use on pg bitches), haven't had a miss doing that yet and I did test the theory on my last girl I bred, gave her nothing and she missed!
To the person harpinig on us about using antibiotics without knowing what organisims, what vet school did you graduate from? My I was told by a vet to try using the amoxi to see if the girls go pg and stayed that way without doing all kinds of tests!
Aloha,
jackie

I did the whole blood work , health exam , worming, culture , CLAVAMOX for the entire pregnancy thing , ultrasound, xray prior to whelp.
I have a beautiful SINGLETON puppy . To the tune of a staggering $1500 vet bill, before I paid the stud fee, collection fee, shipping fees. OR the Csection bill !
She missed the first time, this was the repeat breeding. All per a RePRO vet protocol.

I used Doxy this time. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I'm still smiling

In response too you, I am only repeating what Dr. Robert Hutchinson and Dr. Brian Greenfield told me. That work ups are needed and why do breeders just blindly put there bitches on antibiotics without knowing the underlying causes. I do the same thing anyway, but that does make you wonder what is going on and what if they are just border line thyroid, I have had them being border line and then puting them on soloxine and they have litters after that. So, yes you are right, but it makes you wonder what is going on and why this is happening. Last year was a bad year and allot of people I know missed, but that doesn't mean that just because you put your bitch on antibiotics that is the answer.

I find this a very interesting thread - especially since I am coming at it from two directions.

A vet tech of twenty plus years and a Lab breeder.

This e-mail is not intended to have anyone assume I am a representing myself as an expert nor am I giving any medical advise. This is simply my experience this past year and what I've done.

I've bred four girls this past year and none of them took. I did naturals, chilled, and an AI with both dog and bitch present. All were with different studs. I also have some very good friends who bred at approximately the same time this past year with the following results. One breeder did a breeding with fresh chilled and had no puppies. The other friend bred three girls. All chilled. Two misses, one singleton. All used the same vet and lab for their progesterones.

I've done thyroids - sent to Michigan State and while the T-3 was a bit high on one - their interpretations said this was not indicative of any thyroid problem. Suggested no action be taken. The other three were normal.

I did cultures - all negative. We did complete cbc's and chem panels and specifically tested for mycoplasma. All negative. Because of the massive explosion of mosquitos this year I even tested for heartworm again this year. All negative.

My vet suggested I put all the girls on a 30 day regiment of Doxy. Now when I asked why - he said why not. Nothing has shown up that can give us any type of clue as to what to do next. So I did. With the exception of one girl - all were seasoned mom's with no whelping problems from previous litters.

My first girl is in season right now. It's been about four weeks since her last dose of Doxy. I will breed her according to progesterone sometime this week. I do not plan on putting anyone on any other ab's - now it's up to mother nature.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Keep us posted if you have puppies, maybe this is something we should all be doing in the future, I had three girls miss last year for no reason, did prog. and two of them were bred natural? Got me? So, don't forget too let us know what happens.

So what was the dosage of doxy that your vet chose to use? See when I was discussing it with my vet, the problem with going per label is the spread is very wide on most of these drugs. Are you being super aggressive with the high end dose or getting by with the low end dosing. Thanks for the input.

I did 200mg twice a day of Doxy for 3 weeks, I have bred two bitches , due end of Oct. One was AI w/dog present , the other was shipped chilled . I have had mulitple singletons in the past several years.

Let me throw my 2 cents in here on this business of missing bitches using the progesterone test. I see this happening over and over and more frequently all the time. I have a bitch in now for breeding that was tested at the vet and her numbers came back to breed her on certain days, well since she is here and she is NOT receptive to the dog and he is not wild about breeding her, I used the old standby target test and well what-do-you-know she is early - not ready to breed, so I am continuing to use the Target test and she is about ready and my boys are confirming this. I swear by the Target or Camelot Farms testing - for me it is a lot more accurate.
Before you jump to the anti-biotics, and yes there could be a problem, try using the Target or Camelot as a back up confirming test. Some bitches rise very quickly and others rise very slowly and since we mostly do shipped semen we breed "by the numbers" and I find those to be off the mark more often than not.
I have only missed on one bitch here in the last 20 or so years and that was 2 years ago using only the numbers and no Target test

Very intersting thread - my girl was bred last year and did not have pups. Timing seemed to be perfect and she was bred (chilled AI) 3 times. Just did a thyroid panel on her - normal. Will do a culture when she comes into heat and see if antibiotics are warranted.

I did find a posting on this topic in my files from a year or so ago. Kathy,VMD suggested to "test for herpes virus. The test can be sent to Colorado State U and is inexpensive )$25 I think) and they run them weekly".

Jackie, Black Sands, suggested to contact Marina Zacherias at www.naturalrearing.com, "she put them on some natural stuff and I bred 3 more girls all of which took".

I have a bitch could not get her prego. This past time we used Baytril. Day 1 of heat we started her on it. Used it through the first AI which in this case was day 13. Dose was 136 mg once a day with breakfast. DO NOT use after 1st breeding. Prior to that, it's fine and safe.

We just confirmed her prego by sonogram. YAHOOO

Good luck!!!

Just a note on your comment on NOT USING Baytril after the 1st breeding. We have used Baytril twice, post breeding. Once for 14 days due to a case of Staph, another time for Micoplasma. Both times under the direction of our repro vet, both times we had healthy litters, 9 and 7 respectively.
According to their web site, Baytril is safe for pregnant and lactating bitches.
From their web site:
"Common to all quinolones is that they may produce cartilage lesions in weight-bearing joints of growing dogs. Safety studies have shown that puppies between 1 and 4 weeks of age tolerated treatment with Baytril for up to 10 days at maximum doses of 25 mg/kg b.w. without showing adverse effects. In young dogs above 6 weeks of age, however, cartilage was affected depending on the dose and duration of Baytril administration. By contrast, young cats dosed with Baytril at maximum doses of 25 mg/kg b.w. for up to 30 days did not develop cartilage lesions. Thus, as a matter of precaution, all growing dogs were excluded from treatment. However, no evidence exists that Baytril treatment of pregnant or nursing dogs would have a negative influence on the cartilage development of the offspring."

As a follow up to my previous post on this thread. I just wanted to let everyone know that as a result of an ultrasound done this morning. My girl is pregnant. Three in one horn, one - possibly more in the other. I am very happy. It's been almost a year since puppies here - I am truly looking forward to them again.

Just wanted to follow up on this thread also. I did have my repro vet do two cultures on my bitch that missed last cycle. She tested positive for microplasm and for staph. Put her on antibiotics for ten days. Hopefully she will take this time. Thank you to whoever posted previously to say a microplasm culture takes longer - did the test before she came into heat so had time to put her on the antibiotics before she is bred.

Just a thought in a different direction. I had several years (about four) where I couldn't get any of my girls pregnant, or if I did, it would result in a litter of two or three. I was going out of my mind. I tried everything to no avail (several antibiotics, cultures, thyroid, hormone levels... you name it). There seemed to be no reason for the problem, and nothing seemed to solve it. I then had a personal revelation that seems to have solved my problem. I am not saying anyone else should subscribe to this, as there is nothing scientific about my "test" or results, and it could have been coincidence. The food I fed at that time was beef based. I suddenly had an epiphany -- beef cattle are fed steroids to make them grow larger. Steroids are mighty powerful chemicals. I switched to a chicken based food. The first litter six months after the switch resulted in nine puppies. Then ten after that, and normal sized litters every year since then.

I am not one to switch dog foods very easily. I had fed the same food for many years, and I was happy with it. However, I decided to take a leap of faith, and switch. All I can say, is that my litters have been normal since that time, and the switch sure didn't hurt.

Now, of course, all I have to worry about, is the antibiotics fed to chickens .

I don't plan to engage in a "what kind of dog food is the best" war, as I have seen happen on these lists. I believe the best food to feed, is the one that works for your dogs -- period. This was just something that I think helped me. It falls under a "hummm... could that have been it?" Category. It sure can't hurt to try.

Dian Welle

Another thing to consider when you get a string of missed breedings is your water supply, particularly if you have well water. Well water can change especially if there has been flooding upstream from your groundwater source. There are lots of things that can cause problems - nitrates (or is it nitrites?) are known for causing abortions... If you have a well, it's a good idea to get a complete workup done on your water every year.