I posted under the eblow dysplasia heading and was going to ask how I might comfort this puppy buyer. But as I think of it I know there is no comfort. I feel guilty for bringing unhappiness into the lives of folks who have bought a pup from me and leave here full of happy expectations of many years to share with their new family member. I have been showing and breeding for 10 years. I have produced 10 litters from 2 different lines of females. In those litters I have produced: Allergies, TVD, OCD of hocks and now elbow dysplasia. All parents had appropriate health clearances. Puppy problems that we have gotten past with litters:puppy strangles, swimmers, herpes, c-sections and fading puppy. Is this normal or am I plagued by bad luck?

Welcome to modern Labrador breeding.

I think your story should be passed on to all "new breeders".

It does not matter who the parents are, but what the entire family tree consists of. Without ACCURATE information you are stabbing in the dark.

I hope you scrapped your program and decided to start over, armed with more knowledge.

That level of heartbreak to your puppy buyers is unbelieveably sad. You signed on for heartbreak by calling yourself "breeder", but the poor puppy buyers sure did not. My heart goes out to them.

To you, my hope is that will will find good direction and be the recipient of a good foundation to resart.

Wow, it does sounds like you have had some really bad luck, worse than most from what I can tell.
My suggestion - start over again with some lines you know, find a mentor that knows them, get to know who you can trust.
I'm so sorry you have had such bad luck.
It's not all as bad as that.

I give you a huge amount of credit for being honest...we all have dealt with ALL of these things even worse in some cases but NO one admits to it...they all say their lines don't have these problems - BS

"I give you a huge amount of credit for being honest...we all have dealt with ALL of these things even worse in some cases but NO one admits to it...they all say their lines don't have these problems - BS"
I agree! I also agree with get yourself some new lines. But there is still no guarentee it will be better. Your heart does go out to the puppy buyers and all you can do is be supportive. i have bought pups for my breeding program and have gone through the same heartaches with very little support.
Genetics are genetics and at this point they are pretty messed up. You can only work with what is out there. You would hope that when buying a pup for breeding the breeder you are getting it from would be honest. And I think some are, they dont know either and anything can crop up in any generation. You just have to do your best, when you see something to discontinue. Its not an easy thing after all the money and time you have invested.

Good thread.

I would like to know where are these clean lines??? I don't think they are there. I think that clean typy lines are an oxymoron.

I have thrown out very "clean" lines, that were not typy enough to show.

Someone quoted me a breeder who I consider an Icon in our breed as saying "if you are breeding for type, you will have problems".

I believe it.

No one said anything about "clean lines". You misunderstand. I said find someone who KNOWS their lines and also is willing to be HONEST!
hard to find, I know

This is exactly the reason for the statisic of 5 years and most people are out.
I personally think that's a good thing. It weeds out the weak at heart and undedicated ones.
In this hobby, you can't be weak...for so many reasons

I dont think it has anything to do with breeding "Typey" Labradors, it has to do with breeding anything, cats, pugs, horses, mother nature is not black and white.

That is why they call it the "Heartbreak Hobby"

"I give you a huge amount of credit for being honest...we all have dealt with ALL of these things even worse in some cases but NO one admits to it..."


I agree too. We have all had to deal with things. The more years that go by, the more you will deal with. They are living creatures, things happen.

I also agree, if you do not already have one, find a really good mentor you can trust to help you sort through this and perhaps even find where it may be coming from IF there is any place specific or if it's just the toss of the coin. Good luck, keep plugging away!

I too am walking under that black cloud with you! There's just always something around the next corner that you don't expect just when you think you have it all figured out. There have been times when I've thought the heck with it all but the good things makes the bad seem not quite as bad. Hang in there.

Its never easy to start over.

Many years ago we had problems with ED and stopped right there and started over with new lines.

Its very dissappointing but the right thing to do.

Good luck to you and I too give you credit for your honesty.

Oh boy! I'm sure by now you have figured out these problems are part of breeding. Today you are feeling very sorry for yourself. We have all been there and share your pain. That said, all you can do is pull yourself together, keep on learning, make as many good contacts as you can to maximize the likelihood that you can learn about "what is out there." It is not easy but we do the very best we can.

First of all, I am sorry for what you have been through and for what your puppy buyers have also. Was it bad luck or something you could have detected? That is quite hard to say not knowing your lines.

Many people are not as open as you are. They claim everything is fine and it is not.

Now what happens when a mentor in the breed for decades breeds affected dogs such as you speak of but knowingly? It's rare but it happens.

What I am saying is, it can work both ways. When a mentor recommends their dog for stud knowing they have thrown in the past the above mentioned issues or is banking on final clearances being clear and they are not then who is to blame ? Everyone suffers.

There are many ways to look at this but I do agree, begin with a new line although you will be gun shy initially. I hope all that you and your puppy buyers have been through ceases. Thank you for your honesty, that means so much. Heavily research the pedigrees you have been breeding and will in the future, something has to be there that no one shared with you unfortunately. Silence is not always golden.

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I posted under the eblow dysplasia heading and was going to ask how I might comfort this puppy buyer. But as I think of it I know there is no comfort. I feel guilty for bringing unhappiness into the lives of folks who have bought a pup from me and leave here full of happy expectations of many years to share with their new family member. I have been showing and breeding for 10 years. I have produced 10 litters from 2 different lines of females. In those litters I have produced: Allergies, TVD, OCD of hocks and now elbow dysplasia. All parents had appropriate health clearances. Puppy problems that we have gotten past with litters uppy strangles, swimmers, herpes, c-sections and fading puppy. Is this normal or am I plagued by bad luck?

As a total newbie, I CERTAINLY appreciate the candor in the initial post AND the responsiveness (&empathy)subsequent. It surely is only through such openness that we have a chance to learn. Honestly, I'm not sure I want to breed-the more I learn the more I see how much there is to learn! That said-I am still interested in learning about a breed I love.

Many of you recommend "researching pedigrees" thoroughly. Perhaps it is impossible to convey what one should "look for"(within those pedigrees)- but if you can please elaborate it would surely help a newbie like me. What do you (the experienced breeder look for)? (if there are books on the subject, please advise those that have been helpful to you).

Unfortunately, I think that this type of research can only be done by being involved, seeing the problems that come from different pedigrees, looking for commonality and speaking to others who know the lines and will be honest about them.
There is no book, or article implicating certain dogs/lines for certain health defects. It's a live and learn kind of research.
The only thing we as breeders can do is make the most of our own knowledge and the knowledge of other respectable breeders and go from there.
Try to improve/and or eliminate the issues we see crop up.
It's a process of moving forward through the tough stuff, being honest with ourselves about what we personally can and cannot tolerate issue-wise.
If there were a perfect line, that was guaranteed to throw no problems, I think we'd all have carbon copies of each others dogs.
There isn't though, so it's up to us to take the good and bad, educate ourselves and do right by our dogs.

I have found myself with those same feelings many times. Heard of "Beating your head against the wall"? No matter how careful you are, you really haven't much control over genetics. I don't have many litters for this very same reason. Having a pet owner end up with a problem is not easy for me to deal with. But, think about us humans. Can we ourselves reproduce a perfect specimen that could compete in modeling contests, that would be free of every health issue and hereditary problem imaginable, and be able to pass only the good genes on? Not likely. It's gene pool roulette!!! You have to be tough in this game. It's a school of very hard knocks.

Please, don't feel guilty, I'm sure you did the best you could when you bred your litters. We, as hobby breeders or breeders for decades, have no crystal balls to look into, we are no wizards, we are talking about living creatures here, not Perpetum Mobiles! Genetics are genetics, there are no guarantees whatsoever!
I run a Yahoo Labradorforum here in Sweden. Below is my answer to a member who was very sad and unhappy with the fact that so many of her bought in Labradors ended up with different kinds of problems. She said she was ready to give up on Labradors for good. To breed wasn't an option at all. I tried to comfort her with these words:
"Sooner or later it will be OK, you must try never to give up hope. Easy said,I know, and so very difficult to do. Below is our story: Maybe we were extremely unlucky? I'm sure there are people out there who have bought as many Labs as we did, but who never ever, or at least more seldom, did experience so much sadness as we did. At this very moment though, our house is inhabited by five healthy Labs (knock on wood).
The joy of being a Labrador owner far surpasses the agony and sorrow that can (and will) follow.I do understand your frustration. I too, have felt it. Many times. But I don't want to own another breed, well, maybe a Pug! During the years I have managed to reconcile with the fact that problems can, and will, arise. Nowadays I deal with the sorrow when that particular day comes. Otherwise, you can't cope. We don't have any guarantees whatsoever, we are talking about living creatures. Know this: Serious breeders do their very utmost to achieve as good results as possible! What more could you ask for?
Over the years, this is what happened to our bought in Labradors: They came from five different breeders, two of them were imports (one from England, one from Norway).
Lab 1: Hip Dysplasia.
Lab 2: Developed a very, very rare skin condition, at that time only seen in two or three dogs (world wide). On life long medication.
Lab 3: Bilateral ED (FCP).
Lab 4: ED.
Lab 5: HD plus torn cruciate ligament.
Lab 7: Healthy!!!!
Lab 8: Healthy!!!!"

So, my humble advice is: Try to hang in there. Sooner or later things will change for the better. I know it:-) Best of luck!

I don't know that this much heartbreak is abnormal. I've been through quite a bit over the past eleven years. Mostly with purchased foundation bitches. OCD of the hock, Hip dysplasia, allergies, c-sections. I think the odds are you will run into everything at least once if you're in dogs long enough. Research the two bitch lines you have very thoroughly before you "scrap"your lines and start over. Often a known evil is far safer than an unknown. Go over your list of problems and answer the following... How often did this problem occur? With what line combination? Was it a repeated problem, or a one and done kind of thing. Things do go wrong sometimes and I do not agree with the advice of " scrap your lines and start over." First find out as much much as you can about these two lines.

The guilt, pain and responsibility you feel towards the ED puppy and it's owner must be very hard. I don't envy your position, but admire how much you care. Give yourself some time to recover from this blow and do not let it cloud your whole perspective. Talk to some breeders who have been breeding 25 years plus. They may be able to share some of their insight and help you deal with all you are feeling right now. I guarantee you that they have been there before.

Hang in there...

I want to thank each of you who took the time to make a thoughful constructive reply. They have given me alot to consider. I will most likely go ahead (perhaps after a rest!) with my one line...the other I only had the one girl and she is now spayed. I called the woman who has the dog with ED this morning. She was very kind and sad...telling me how she had lost her husband and her 13 y/o Lab this year. The house was very quiet with her 2 y/o at the vet's for x-rays...she was just sad and lonely. She reminded me of how happy she was bringing her puppy home 2 years ago and looking forward to new life in the face of her husband's Alzheimer's.
Thank you to the Wiscoy Forum.

sometimes I think you are not allowed to know a particular problem until after you have used a particular stud dog. You are in the club now so now you can know what's happening.....

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As a total newbie, I CERTAINLY appreciate the candor in the initial post AND the responsiveness (&empathy)subsequent. It surely is only through such openness that we have a chance to learn. Honestly, I'm not sure I want to breed-the more I learn the more I see how much there is to learn! That said-I am still interested in learning about a breed I love.

Many of you recommend "researching pedigrees" thoroughly. Perhaps it is impossible to convey what one should "look for"(within those pedigrees)- but if you can please elaborate it would surely help a newbie like me. What do you (the experienced breeder look for)? (if there are books on the subject, please advise those that have been helpful to you).

I think someone who cares as much as you do is an asset to this breed.
It is only by caring and breeding diligently to eliminate these problems instead of just breeding for type that we can overcome them.
I hope you decide to carry on.

S*#t happens. You can do clearances 'til dooms day and it's no guarantee that all will go well.

The fact that you feel sad and guilty tells me that you are a good person. I have felt the same way if an owner has called me because something is wrong. If you are in this for any length of time you are going to encounter some problems. I also feel like I am under a black cloud right now as I have also had a huge number of unexpected vet expenses this year for my labs and am still paying those off. I also have just had 2 disaster litters in a row with my pugs (and no living puppies to show for it, just lots of expenses) and I honestly don't know if I will ever try to breed another pug as I am heartbroken. My first 2 labs purchased for show were dysplastic and ended up being spayed. It was hard to move on from there but somehow I did. Once I got a different blood line things improved and I am hoping the same for you.

Don't give up, I have learned to remember the very best times to keep you going when you do hit one of those black walls. After we lost our bitch to liver failure shortly after her puppies were born my mom told me "Well this is a sign to get out"" I said "NO, this is just one of many trials and tests that I will face to determine whether I have what it takes to keep going", this wasn't the first tragedy nor will it be the last but if you run at the first sign of trouble than do throw in the towel and accept that maybe it's not for you, if you keep going look forward to all the joy you will bring to your life and the lives of others. Keep trying to work with the lines you have and see if you can find dogs in there that have a better overall orthopedic picture...

sounds like she has been through the mill instead...as have many of us...

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Don't give up, I have learned to remember the very best times to keep you going when you do hit one of those black walls. After we lost our bitch to liver failure shortly after her puppies were born my mom told me "Well this is a sign to get out"" I said "NO, this is just one of many trials and tests that I will face to determine whether I have what it takes to keep going", this wasn't the first tragedy nor will it be the last but if you run at the first sign of trouble than do throw in the towel and accept that maybe it's not for you, if you keep going look forward to all the joy you will bring to your life and the lives of others. Keep trying to work with the lines you have and see if you can find dogs in there that have a better overall orthopedic picture...

"She reminded me of how happy she was bringing her puppy home 2 years ago and looking forward to new life in the face of her husband's Alzheimer's."

Even though this dog has a problem, he was and is serving a very important purpose - to make his owner happy when she needs it most, and to be there...when she needs it most.
The ED is secondary. The dog sounds like he was a "gift" to his owner at a time she truly needed him. Take joy in that. You did your best, but the bad things can never be planned for.
Sometimes we miss the the miracles becaue they aren't what we expected, but they are miracles, nonetheless...