AS a newbie, what you would recommend....first time litter, and bitch's first litter. I have a choice of a nice local stud with a CH/JH. Good lines, charming dog. Would add what I need for my bitch. Or a line on an out of state CH stud. He's what I see in my mind when I think of what my kennel should be in the future. But as a newbie, I will have to go through AI, progesterone testing, multiple vet visits, shipping semen, and the extra costs that involves....which seems like ALOT to learn right from the start.

Bitch's breeder and a trusted breeder friend think I should stay local for the first time until I know how my girl whelps. Respected friend who is new like me, thinks I should go for the "golden ring" so to speak, since I have the opportunity.

Out of state CH is used alot, but not in my area. Local CH/JH is used alot in my area, but not out of the area. If I breed to local stud, pups will be related to every other dog in the state. If I breed to out of state stud, I will have a new line and maybe a to die for litter.

Any thoughts?

My series of questions that I would start with when contemplating breeding one of my girls for the first time #1 WHY do I want to produce these puppies? a) to test my bitch or b)to potentially move my breeding program to the place where I see my kennel in the future, #2 Have I selected the absolutely best male you can find so that you will produce something that you will want to hang on to show/hunt or otherwise compete with? #3 Why would you not do progesterone testing regardless of where the stud dog is? #4 "Whelping" has nothing to do with who you choose as stud dog.
Finally we all learn when we breed, and spending a extra few hundred dollars may look like a hurdle BUT "stretching" to do something that could put you on the path to a great foundation dog or bitch "PRICELESS!"

I went through the same situation as you, except the local dog was very well known. We were also concerned with the cost and our not having experience. It cost us more in the long run.


Regardless of who you use, you should still do the progesterone.

We went with the local dog, so we thought we didnt need the tests.
My girls breeder told me the 13 day is her day, it was that way with her bitch lines.

My girl missed, she was bred on 12 and 14 didnt want to be bred after that. She normally came into heat 7-8 months this time it took a full year for her to come in.
Next time we breed her she was at a 3.5 on day 7 and a 10.2 on her 9th day. She was bred on days 9,10,11 and we ended up with 8 puppies.

We did get a very nice litter, though they are similar to the other litters that were produced by this dog.

Since you will be doing the testing anyway, the AI isnt that much more money. Go with the dog that you REALLY want.

I try to keep in mind that I may never be able to breed this bitch again - for whatever reason. You never know.
Therefore, I try to use the stud that I really want, regardless of the effort involved to get her bred. A repro vet might be able to guide you through it. Otherwise, talk to a couple of people that have done it many times and can help in the breeding process , with any questions that may come up

I can only speak of my own experience with what I have seen in my own foundation bitch which is the true start to my kennel. Before I used local boys with a few of my other foundation girls. I never liked what I got in the way of improvement and health. What I learned is that I needed a good foundation bitch to start off with who has all the good genes behind her pedigree. I didn't start progesterone testing until we got Jasmine, my now foundation bitch. For her 3rd litter I used a local boy in my neighboring town but we still did a side by side collection and AI on her. We got our beautiful Betty. On Jasmine's first 2 litters which were on co-own, we chose East Coast Boys. All of her litters produced some nice quality dogs and show prospects who are still growing up and maturing.

I am convinced that it takes a pre potent brood bitch and an equally potent stud dog with the genes behind him to start making head way in a breeding program.

Am I happy about paying for all the progesterone tests and FEd X shipments and $900 plus stud fees ? I'm not jumping up and down with excitement but when the litter is born and I see the quality of my puppies, my teeth stop grining from all the money we spent to get my girl bred and is replaced with a smile and a great sense of satisfaction.

There are plenty of nice local boys for breeders to use and if you think they are just as nice as the Champion stud dog in a far away stay, then use your local boy if you are concerned about this being your first breeding or your girl's first breeding.

Most local stud dog owners appreciate it when bitch owners still run progesterone on their girls. It's less stressful on your bitch if you just show up at the stud dog owner's house, do the collection and AI and go home with your girl. It's safer on your bitch and stud dog if you do only AI's.

Good luck on your girl's first breeding !!

Thanks all. Just a clarification, I did realize I would have to do progesterone testing, but the local stud owner has a kennel and usually will house the bitch for a week as she nears her time and breeds her multiple times, natural if possible, side by side AI if necessary. That would all be taken care of for me, I just have to test to see when to bring her up. It doesn't seem like I have to pin point the exact day with multiple testing.

I like my bitch and she comes from a nice line and the dam threw consistent puppies in various litters. Mine and half siblings appear from the same litter, it's that consistent.

I do think 'What if this is the ONLY litter I do' and wouldn't it be nice to have great puppies from the get go.

I have alot of phone calls to make next week to check out the repro vet options. I have my short list of recommendations to call.

Sounds like you are asking for sound advice. My only suggestion here is... If you ask your dog's breeder and/or a fellow local breeder who is a "mentor" to you; be considerate of their advice. If you ask those who are giving their time and prior expertise and you do the opposite, it will be tough to go to them again in the future. Local dog or not should not have any bearing. The dog you are considering breeding to should have all the qualities you want to add to your program. Whether he lives in your home, next door or across the country should not limit you. Breed what is best for your bitch.

I see it a lot with those new in the breed. They ask a lot of peoples opinions and then do the opposite. There is nothing wrong with doing what you feel best, it is your bitch. Just be considerate is all I am saying.

Good Luck.

I will always seek the advice of people I respect and do it with full consideration. Sometimes, though, for a variety of reasons, I can't always take their advice. Not doing so doesn't mean I respect those people any less. It just means that other factors weighed more heavily. I'd hate to think that a mentor's counsel means "You must do this." That's not the way it works in the rest of the world and I hate to think it works that way in dog breeding.

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Replying to:

Sounds like you are asking for sound advice. My only suggestion here is... If you ask your dog's breeder and/or a fellow local breeder who is a "mentor" to you; be considerate of their advice. If you ask those who are giving their time and prior expertise and you do the opposite, it will be tough to go to them again in the future. Local dog or not should not have any bearing. The dog you are considering breeding to should have all the qualities you want to add to your program. Whether he lives in your home, next door or across the country should not limit you. Breed what is best for your bitch.

I see it a lot with those new in the breed. They ask a lot of peoples opinions and then do the opposite. There is nothing wrong with doing what you feel best, it is your bitch. Just be considerate is all I am saying.

Good Luck.

My advise would be to breed to the best possible dog you can. Do the progesterone testing, so you don't waste your money on the stud fee. In the end, it really doesn't cost that much more. Start on day 6 for a baseline, and then every other day... If you're trying to breed up from what you have, this is the only way to go... You may have to sacrifice somewhat in your profit, but I think most of us are trying to produce better dogs, and hopefully not lose money doing it! Good luck!

Breed to the dog that is your Ideal.

You have to treat every litter as it is the last litter your bitch may have, it may well be for a variety of unplanned reasons.

Your first breeding with this bitch may be your last. Things happen in our hobby that we never expect such as a bitch only getting in whelp once though bred multiple times in her life, emergency spay, unfortunate health issues with the puppies, etc. Breed to the best dog. If it's the one out of state, you'll learn along the way. Your vet will know about progesterone tests. He can do your AI. All you need to do is show up and pay the bill. It's not hard. Why go for mediocre puppies just bec' your new?

My question is -- If a breeder only breeds to better the breed, why would you settle for anything but the best stud dog available for your female?

I in no way want to diminish the quality of the local stud. He's truly wonderful and will add much of what the out of state stud will....coat, tail and rear angulation. It's just down to the nitty-gritty. Both are wonderful...but one just pulls at my heart a bit more...he's the boy I saw in LQ a year ago and feel in love with. I spoke to the out of state stud owner and get a better feeling from her than the local stud owner. For whatever that's worth.

Have you seen the out of state dog in person and put your hands on him? If not, have you seen any of his get in person? I agree, breed to the best dog available, but I think it is difficult to compare the two dogs and judge what they each have to offer if you have seen only one in the flesh. Many dogs look different in photos than in person, and the only way to judge movement is to actually see the dog move.

I bred to an out of state dog and he was the perfect stud for my girl, but I did not breed to him until I made a road trip to see him in person.

GO FOR IT ! I always breed to the dog I love. Not settle because it is less trouble. The out of state dog may be more expense and trouble to get it done, but the pups might just be wonderful and what you really want. Wish there was something local to breed to. Just never find what I really like. Look at the pedigrees again. Not whether or not they are a champion. (we know some just don't look like a champion ? but are!) If you like working lines the JH is very good to know. But there again did the studs parent show the work ability, that count too. Go with great temperments and what stud, hopefully, will add what your female is missing. Let us know.

If the local dog is nicer and will do more for your bitch, go that way. If the other dog will be the one to do it, go the other way. Some have said your bitch may, for whatever reason, have only this one litter and that is certainly true. But the other thing to remember is that a bitch will probably have approximately 4 litters in her breeding career. If you waste one of them breeding for convenience, and then end up selling the entire litter because there's nothing in it better than the mother (which in my humble opionion is what should happen in that situation), you will regret it down the road when you realize the truth of what you did. Also, if you plan to keep a male and the sire is in the area you can probably kiss a stud career for your boy goodbye. I don't know how many times I have heard people say something like, "he's a nice boy, but I can breed to his sire because I know what he produces." If you keep a bitch, and want to breed her down the road, your options may open up a bit more if you broaden your local gene pool a little by using the distant dog. If the litter is really nice, a lot of local people may thank you for bringing in some new blood. This is all just my opinion; at the end of the day it's your bitch and your decision. Envision where you want to be in five years and then make the decision that is most likely to take you in that direction.

Thanks all for your comments. Through some soul searching, talking with a repro vet, and several breeder friends I am going to take the plunge and go for the "gusto" so to speak and use the PRIMO stud that I have been eyeing for over a year. The opportunity is there and he'll add so much to the table. I'll never be able to buy into the lines other than breeding them in through this stud, so I am feeling very good about my decision.

In about a month or so if the breeding takes, I'll annouce the pending litter.