Do you charge full pet price for a yellow with no black pigment or would you discount it?
Thank you in advance for your advice

I would charge the same. Although, I've heard of people paying extra for it! LOL

There are people out there that looooove the dudleys. I haven't had many, lately, but when I did, many times they were the first to go. Charge the same.

color of nose/pigment has nothing to do with wonderful temperament. I agree with posters, charge the same

Could someone clarify "Dudley" v. No Black Pigment (NBP).

I thought Dudley referred to a seasonally related fading of pigment. It seems here is described a pink nose or liver nose which is incorrect by all standards and should be regarded as such.

A dudley is born with no black pigment - eyes or nose.

Not the same as winter nose when some will lose their black pigment in the nose during cold months.

I would charge the same price for a dudley.

To further what Patty said, dudley is NBP, no black pigment. Nose, Jowl, eyes, pads of paws and belly are pink/liver. There is confusion on what color you say "pink" or "liver", nevertheless, all areas are included. Eyes are also very light and do not change to brown, they remain light.

LABRADOR RETRIEVERS WITH NO PIGMENT AROUND THEIR
NOSE AND EYES ARE NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE BREED
AND AGAINST THE STANDARD.

WHY WOULD YOU SELL THAT DO TO SOMEONE FOR THE
SAME PRICE??? IT IS UP TO YOU TO EDGUCATE
THE BUYER THAT THIS PUPPY IS NOT CORRECT
ACCORDING TO THE STANDAND AND THAT IS WHY
YOU ARE SELLING IT FOR LESS. OTHERWISE,
THEY MAY THINK THIS IS CORRECT.

AGREED, HE OR SHE MAY HAVE THE SAME TEMPERAMENT
BUT IT IS NOT WHAT A LABRADORS IS SUPPOSED TO
LOOK LIKE..

WHY BE GREEDY.

It's EDUCATE, not EDGUCATE!

A dudley does have pigment. It is various shades of liver (brown) color. I believe a dog with no pigment is called an albino. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I found this response very odd. The person comes off angry for some reason. Why the hostility?

" LABRADOR RETRIEVERS WITH NO PIGMENT AROUND THEIR
NOSE AND EYES ARE NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE BREED
AND AGAINST THE STANDARD."

First of all a Dudley does have pigment as another posted - they have liver pigment instead of black. They are a disqualification under the breed standard but so is an undersized dog - would you charge less for a puppy that is on the small side and might not make standard as an adult? Would you charge less for a puppy with an overbite or underbite or one that has a straight rear or a bad topline or any other quality that does not make them adhere perfectly to the breed standard? We are talking about a pet puppy here going to a family and NOT a show home.

"WHY WOULD YOU SELL THAT DO TO SOMEONE FOR THE
SAME PRICE??? IT IS UP TO YOU TO EDGUCATE
THE BUYER THAT THIS PUPPY IS NOT CORRECT
ACCORDING TO THE STANDAND AND THAT IS WHY
YOU ARE SELLING IT FOR LESS. OTHERWISE,
THEY MAY THINK THIS IS CORRECT."

Who said the person was not going to point out that the color combination is not correct? Again this is a pet puppy going on limited registration. And again why wouldn't you sell the puppy for the same price as the littermates who took just as much time, money, and energy to produce and raise properly?

"AGREED, HE OR SHE MAY HAVE THE SAME TEMPERAMENT
BUT IT IS NOT WHAT A LABRADORS IS SUPPOSED TO
LOOK LIKE.."

A Dudley sure can look like what a Labrador is supposed to look like! They can adhere to the standard in all other respects. What about a dog with a coarse head, an incorrect coat, a straight rear, too short, too tall, long tail, etc etc. There are many qualities that make a puppy a pet quality puppy.

I find Pet people could care less. They are getting a very nice puppy as it is. Some do pick the pup without pigment, one with a little spot. They are told and do not care. That is silly to act like there is something wrong with the pup. Great temperment is what they want. They don't plan to show. How many times have you heard that. But they come and pay us $1,000 hoping the health clearances will give them a better pup. Looks a little but not so much. Sell for the same, it is the same pup.

Thanks for all the advice - what a hot button!!

My beautiful yellow boy is correct in every respect, lovely coat, angles, temperament, but he is yellow with chocolate pigment.
It was not supposed to happen but it did.
I know he is incorrect, as per the standard, and cannot be shown. It is a shame because in every other respect he is my pick.
It is because of the standard that I don't want to misrepresent him.
I told one person enquiring and their reaction was so bad (I may as well said he had a poodle coat) that it prompted my question.

Thank you for the replies.

Thank you Gail and Sharon. To the poster so angry, WOW!!!

I for one have bred to a BISS CH sire that was B/yc with my C/y girl although at the time I didnot realize she was C/y. I got not one but 2 dudley puppies. They were adorable, not in standard of course but lovely for the pet owners on a limited registration and very wanted. Of course I educated the clients and actually gave a DNA lesson on how it happened. They loved it. Why in the world would I not charge the same? The example of an undersized or oversized pup is great. What about Labs that happen to have a short ear, or a tail set that is way low, that is not instandard either..do we start with that as well???? Temperaments of the pups were wonderful, clients loved them, everyone is happy.

JMO but I would suggest to stop with the caps which is yelling. would not want you to have a heart attack due to emotions over a dudley pup.

Our first Labrador is a Dudley. We were educated on his coloration at the time and he too was inadvertent - both parents were chocolate and it was not known they carried yellow. We did pay $50.00 less for him than his littermates - we didn't care and would not have thought twice if he was the same price. We wanted a yellow male and he was a yellow male! He too is a handsome dog - both parent had hip/elbow/eye clearances and his sire is a champion. The entire litter was whelped and reared the same way and he was sold as a healthy and happy puppy just like his brown littermates.

Dudley coloration (yellow/red/orange with liver pigment) is accepted in other breeds such as the English Setter, Pointer, Beagle, Chow Chow, Chesapeake Bay Retriever, Pit Bull, Shar-pei, Poodle and many others. It's a normal combination of the E and B genes and when you take into consideration everything that can go "wrong" with a puppy it's quite insignificant when you want a loving family member.

a true 'albino' has no pigment. thus white hair/fur and pink (or blue in some creatures) eyes.

a dudley/nbp is not an albino.

I would sell it on a limited (as you are likely doing with the rest you don't intend to have shown or bred) but be sure that it is done with the understanding that I wouldn't be reversing the limited under any circumstances. Other than that, I would sell it for the same price. This is simply a puppy who will be a pet, nothing less than the other puppies, just not show quality. You put the same amount of love and work into it as the others, right? It's getting the same medical attention, right?

I wouldn't worry what an anonymous person that professes to be "breeder" has to say. Anyone who has to troll around a forum under an anonymous name isn't worth listening to. [ If anyone is old enough to remember the "unknown comic" from the Gong Show, you'll understand... I'm waiting to go to a dog show and finally see "breeder" with a bag over her head. For those of you too young to remember the show, here is a link for reference.


Dian Welle
Blue Knight

Actually, if a dudley was bred to a dog that didn't carry the chocolate gene, I would think the pigment would be black, wouldn't it? I wouldn't have a reason to do it, but---.

I agree with Dian about the trolls.

I had pet people that were disappointed that I didn't have any dudleys for them. "You don't have any with a pink nose?" LOL!

Yes, a Dudley can be a fabulous producer of wonderful dogs and bitches, it just can't be shown in the ring.

"It's EDUCATE, not EDGUCATE!"

Now THAT is one to save... LOL!

Actually Dudley coloring is not acceptable in English Setters although it is not a disqualifying fault. The nose and eye rim pigment on all acceptable colors, orange belton, blue belton, tri belton, liver belton, & lemon belton, should be black or dark brown and fully pigmented, meaning no spots of lighter color in the pigment.

WHY WOULD YOU SELL THAT DO TO SOMEONE FOR THE
SAME PRICE??? (extra ?? not required)
IT IS UP TO YOU TO EDGUCATE (educate)
THE BUYER THAT THIS PUPPY IS NOT CORRECT
ACCORDING TO THE STANDAND (standard) AND THAT IS WHY
YOU ARE SELLING IT FOR LESS. OTHERWISE,
THEY MAY THINK THIS IS CORRECT.

AGREED, HE OR SHE MAY HAVE THE SAME TEMPERAMENT
BUT IT IS NOT WHAT A LABRADORS (Labrador) IS SUPPOSED TO
LOOK LIKE.. (double period not required)

If you are going to yell at someone at least do it using correct punctuation and spelling, more impact that way.


Oh and for the record I would sell the puppy for the same price as the littermates.
A nice puppy with a great temperament is what is most important. In a perfect world they would all be perfect. Since no one has created the perfect labrador yet let the dudley go to a pet home.

I think if all posters were required to use their correct name we would have less, perhaps none of the nasty angry comments I see. It is too bad these people feel that hiding their identity allows rudeness.
Regarding the Dudley - I had one 2 years ago and every pup buyer wanted the little girl with the "pinto" nose. She is much loved and yes she was full price. All of my pet pups go on a limited reg. so even though she will never show or breed, she is a wonderful Labrador.

"& lemon belton, should be black or dark brown and fully pigmented"

Lemon is an orange/yellow and white dog with liver pigmentation that happens when the dog is bb and ee just like a Dudley Labrador. A Dudley has full liver pigmentation just like a Lemon setter or a lemon Beagle. A Dudley does not "lack" pigment but simply has liver and not black.

My friend just called me and said she just had a call for a "light yellow pup with a pink nose" and yes, she had one. It was the first sale of the litter. You just never know.

Sharon

I love it when you come on here. You are so knowledgeable. I have learned so much from you.

There is nothing wrong with a Dudley nose as a working or companion dog. It does not keep a dog from eating, it does not keep a dog from walking, it does not keep a dog from licking your hand or wagging it's tail, getting a UDX or MH or going for long walks on the weekend. There is absolutely nothing wrong other than the color of his pigment. If I were a pet person, I'd consider myself lucky to have found a nice healthy pup, pink nose or not and I'd be comfortable paying the breeder's price for him. That does not mean that the breeder should not let the buyer know that the standard calls for dark pigment. But it is not a jail sentence to have bred one nor a crime to sell one.

-LABRADOR RETRIEVERS WITH NO PIGMENT AROUND THEIR
NOSE AND EYES ARE NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE BREED
AND AGAINST THE STANDARD.

WHY WOULD YOU SELL THAT DO TO SOMEONE FOR THE
SAME PRICE??? IT IS UP TO YOU TO EDGUCATE
THE BUYER THAT THIS PUPPY IS NOT CORRECT
ACCORDING TO THE STANDAND AND THAT IS WHY
YOU ARE SELLING IT FOR LESS. OTHERWISE,
THEY MAY THINK THIS IS CORRECT.-

Have you never made a mistake in your life? Have you never had anything unfortunate happen to you? The poster said that producing the dudley was "inadvertant". That means it happened by accident.

If by chance, you haven't produced anything by mistake in the course of being a breeder, might I suggest you shouldn't cast stones... Something will find its way into your breeding program. It's only just a matter of time. You should hope and pray that it will only be a dudley.

When I first read that shout, I asked out loud, "I suppose you think we oughta drown them?" By the time I got to the end of the thread I thought it would be better to bucket puppies with lousy temperaments. All of which made me think, applied to humans, that sort of thinking would not bode wellfor the shouter.

Thanks again for all the responses.

I had no idea my champion girl carried yellow, it is possible of course, but you have to go back! I have never bred yellow, only chocolates and blacks. She is only having one litter because I wanted a nice male to show, otherwise I might keep my dudley, (as was pointed out they can make fabulous producers). I love to show and I am lucky have 10 chocolate litter mates to choose from.

It looks like I have a great home for him, a nice couple, no kids both work at home, came by to choose there chocolate boy tonight, took one look at my lone yellow and decided he is the one! I explained the pigment, offered a small discount, and they said no.
So I guess you were all right - my dudley has gone first and full price, no deception required.

Thank you again everyone for the advice.
All my pups go on limited registrations unless it is to another breeder.
I just had one funny phone enquiry and that triggered my query.

That is a pet pup due to pigmentation. If there isn't enough rear angle, upper arm, reach of neck,or forechest are you going to discount the pup too because it is not a perfect representative of the breed?

Do you discount a pup that is not a perfect example of the breed out of what you call GREED? I am sure not! We all keep the best of a litter but do we pick apart the pups going to pet homes to educate?

Stop being so self righteous and look and what you do in your own breeding program before you tell someone else they're greey.

This is why this list is out of hand, too many "breeder" names that are anon! I usually use my full name but chose not to this time. I find your reply ridiculous and please lower your caps, that is yelling on the interent. Grin all you want, you are as greedy as you claim someone selling a Dudley is for full price if you don't discount for every small conformation issue that you don't want in your breeding program.

*Someone who had never had a Dudley!*

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

LABRADOR RETRIEVERS WITH NO PIGMENT AROUND THEIR
NOSE AND EYES ARE NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE BREED
AND AGAINST THE STANDARD.

WHY WOULD YOU SELL THAT DO TO SOMEONE FOR THE
SAME PRICE??? IT IS UP TO YOU TO EDGUCATE
THE BUYER THAT THIS PUPPY IS NOT CORRECT
ACCORDING TO THE STANDAND AND THAT IS WHY
YOU ARE SELLING IT FOR LESS. OTHERWISE,
THEY MAY THINK THIS IS CORRECT.

AGREED, HE OR SHE MAY HAVE THE SAME TEMPERAMENT
BUT IT IS NOT WHAT A LABRADORS IS SUPPOSED TO
LOOK LIKE..

WHY BE GREEDY.

I am glad you all feel the way I do and how I posted above (please read.) I took high offense to the way "breeder" presented their reply in several ways including capital letters. There is no reason to discount a Dudley, as I asked, do we discount not enough forechest, brisket or even tail set? It is the same difference. No puppy is perfect and if they are close to it we keep them.

Do you feel like a fool for posting like that now "breeder"? Shame on you and learn proper internet etiquette if you don't want to be corrected

This list will never change with the anon option so we have to learn to live with it. Thank you to Spelling B and others for their explanations.

I never had a Dudley but would not discount it for that particular reason if I did.

Inadvertant Dudley, don't worry and don't discount. I'm sure you have a lovely litter Someone will enjoy your Dudley and the puppy will be loved forever.

"This is why this list is out of hand, too many "breeder" names that are anon! I usually use my full name but chose not to this time"

So are you contributing to this list getting out of hand? This list is NOT out of hand.

Perhaps the poster is from a foreign country and their English language skills are lacking or they don't know about caps. I can't believe breeders are so thin skinned that this stuff would bother them. Posting anonymously has it's place. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and sometimes a harsh or unpopular remark gets a point across (not necessarily referring to this post) and makes people think. What's more annoying is the multiple postings by people that can't refrain from repeating the disdain that someone has ALREADY voiced or those that complain about anonymous posters. Do you have something NEW to add or has a remark incited such emotion in you that you can't remain in control over yourself? A polling function on this board would be extremely useful.

The ability to post anonymously is what makes this forum unique, informative, thought provoking, seldom boring and very popular. Lighten up already.

I have heard that in some countries an NBP is called a "Peppermint Creme". I think that is a more appealing name than Dudley!
I would sell one for the same price as any other pet quality puppy.

A year or so ago I wrote to the LRC, asking about the just this issue - chocolate pigmented yellow dogs (a friend bred to my Byc boy, Yc bitch, and produced one chocolate-pigmented yellow). I have no idea who answered my email there and/or if they even knew what they were talking about, but this is the response I got from the LRC, Inc:

"We will try to word our answer so as not to further confuse an already confusing point.

If a yellow Labrador Retriever appears in the conformation ring at legal minimum age and still has nose and eye rims (and lip line) colored the pink it had the day it was born, that Labrador Retriever should be disqualified under disqualifications 2 and 3. Invariably a true unpigmented (pink or without pigment) nose is accompanied by eye rims and lip line also pink or lacking pigment.

If the yellow dog has chocolate pigment, light or dark but of a discernibly brown shade, and has eye rims and lip line of the same color or darker, it should only be penalized, the severity in relation to the paleness of the brown shade.

If the yellow dog has a pale nose, pink or pale brown which has dark veining or spotting or edging, indicating that it did have a dark nose at one time and if it also has the dark eye rims and lip (color of which does not fade) to confirm that previous dark nose coloring, then that dog is to be considered having faded nose pigment and should not be penalized - see the description under "Nose" in the body of the Standard.

We hope this makes more clear the intent of the meaning of disqualification #2.

Thank you for writing to the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc."

Patty,

Thank you for sharing the LRC response with us -- it makes sense to me!

Johanne