**Resemblance to characters living or dead in this post are strictly coincidental. **

Thanks to anonymity, this forum is The Potomac of Labrador lists. It’s the must-read online soap. What happens here doesn’t stay here. Just ask Michael Silva if he ever wants to see another gnome. It’s rarely boring and the information is endless. There are thousands of Dysons vacuum reviews stored for your use. Besides, anonymity can be intriguing. Just ask the group with enough time on their hands to crack ISP identities.

Admit it. You hate signing on and seeing a warning from Jill and knowing you missed a deleted thread. You call a trusted friend who doesn’t have to work for a living and ask what it was that you missed. It’s always the same.

An anonymous poster comments about an anonymous breeder or an anonymous show or an anonymous dog. Given that there are two million anonymous Labradors in the world, you’d think the item would stay anonymous. But someone with a guilty conscience or highly developed ESP, always knows who anonymous is, and is offended and affronted and the catfight begins.

Soon the tsk-tsking starts until the angry poster slinks off satisfied that they have vented to 1,000 of their closest friends. The moralizers (who do use their own names) advance an online good guy reputation that their real life breeding practices can’t give them and the few normal people on the list get off of the computer and train their dogs. The subject dies down but not before getting a gazillion hits -- which means I am not the only one that has a macabre fascination with these topics.

If someone starts a Forums Anonymous group for Anonymous Forum dependency, please let me know.

Anonymously yours,
“Breeder”

Have been thinking along the same lines during this past weekend although previously have always thought that we should use our names. Annomous posts have enlightened, created conversation and enlivened the topic of dog breeding. I'm not at all offended by mystery people, their insults or revelations. And as for spelling, who cares. That has little to do with the things we may lern.

Opps! I think I should be annomous here and gotten my dictionary out.

I used to use my real name and then people got all grumpy and mean, so I stopped. Now you can only guess who I am.

Same here -- no more. Ask a legitimate question or make a comment and you get blasted. No more will I post my name either, other forums gladly because you have to register and people are honest, but NOT vicious.

Have a nice day!

I will still use my name 991/2 % of the time. I'm a big girl and if someone wants to criticize me, so be it. I'm a big girl and can take it. When I post, it is just MY opinion, which I am entitled to. I don't post to try to hurt people---EVER. That's not polite, which is a word some of you should look up the meaning of in the dictionary.

The other 1/2% is if I am posting something might jeopardize someone else's feelings or reputation.

In thinking about how my response to those trolls on here affect me, I am reminded of my favorite quote of all times by Glinda the Witch of the North from the Wizard of Oz , one of my favorite movies:

"You have no power here! Now begone, before somebody drops a house on you!"

Just remember:

"only bad witches are ugly."

This is perhaps the way to deal with the anonymous..
Intelligent and by the ba-s...
But sad in a way, because it has nothing to do with breeding or beeing an upright person...
We are too many leaving this list after tons of houses, not fallen but thrown at us...
Not once have a topic been good to the end, even if the intention is good... Someone will alway come in and ruin it for the ones who really wanted to know...
Pia

The hate here has ruined this forum for me.Having been a target of the trolls I feel I miss out on a lot of really good posts because I don't come here much at all anymore. I will never use my name here been bit too many times. So have others. I commend Jill for taking down the horrible posts yesterday and leaving the good stuff!

I know who ya are Newbie 13. I'll never tell LOL

Oprah has a good show on now about bi polar disease.

"Now don't forget my dear," there is also something called IA -- Internet Addiction. It is a very common one today, however there are trolls that are out of control hovering with a mean streak that have the capacity to ruin things for everyone. If it's not recognised and addressed in some way it will ruin all the Dyson posts and Gnome jokes that have been enjoyable. Let us hope they're not gone for good one of these morning's when we fetch the forum.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Not Grumpy, I'm DOC

**other forums gladly because you have to register and people are honest, **

Signing your name doesn't make you honest it only makes you more visible. Trolls excepted, people who post anonymously can speak their mind without getting eaten alive and they aren't looking to promote themselves or be something they're not. Signed posts may be more polite but that doesn't make them honest.

I have always used my real name on this board.

And while there are those that have criticized me, I don't ever post under a different name, I just put those nasty's in there place!

I don't, nor have I ever, taken crap from anyone in my life!

So the nasty people are wasting their time where I am concerned.

Do unto others.............

Can someone tell me about the gnomes?

Annie

Put gnomes in the "Search this Forum" box in the upper right hand corner.

People have been writing anonymous letters since writing was invented. Over on this side of The Pond they are called Poison Pen Letters.

Anonymous posting encourages people to say things they would be ashamed to say if they had to sign their names.

I've only started reading this Forum in the past few weeks. I'm shocked to see how may people post anonymously.

Back when the internet first got started I was a charter member of Lab-L.We all used our names back then. I have life long friends that I met on Lab-L. I'm happily married thanks to some of those Lab-L conversations that turned into friendships that led me to far off lands.

None of that would have happened if we hadn't signed our names.

I've got an idea! Before you make a post think of whether or not your Labradors would approve of what you are about to say or the way you are saying it. If so post away and sign your name.

Saudjie wrote:

"Back when the internet first got started I was a charter member of Lab-L.We all used our names back then."

Oh, Saudjie, those were the days:-) Cindy Tittle-Moore's and Liza Lee Miller's Lab-L was also my first list experience. I signed up back in 1996. Lab-L was a very, very good and informative list, and Cindy was a superb moderator. Sometimes harsh words were exchanged between members but noone stepped over the limit. Noone was allowed anonymity.Friendly but firm, Cindy didn't accept crap from anyone:-) She was the alpha of alphas:-)
Lab-L still exists, I'm still on it, and recently some members tried to revive it. Approx 800 members are still subscribers.
Unfortunately both Cindy and Lisa stepped down as moderators so nowadays the list is sort of living its own life.
I can only speak for myself, but I very much miss a moderator at this forum. We need an alpha of alphas here too. Beverly did a great job, but it was an impossible task for her to fulfill. This forum needs at least ten moderators, or maybe more...
JMHO.

Yes - I recall Cindy calling me a "knuckle dragging gorilla."

Hi Anki!! So nice to see your name at the end of a post.Those really were the days weren't they.

I met Di Stevens on Lab-L. When Glenda Crook died I wanted to send white lilies to the family but Princess Di had just died and there wasn't a lily to be had. I asked Di to help me. I think she may have raided someone's garden but she found white lilies for me and sent them to John on my behalf.

I also met Ritva from Finalnd who is still my good friend. She asked me to make a quilt for the BOB trophy for the World Show at Helsinki. When Glenda died I wanted to donate the quilt in her honour so Ritva asked me to contact John to ask for permission. When I did he remembered the lilies and invited me to visit the Balrion kennel.

And now we are married.

None of those things would have happened had we had been posting anonymously.

I will always sign my name.

OK, now **I'm** becoming GRUMPY.
Listen up people.. I have done the best that I can with this forum.

Yes, we all remember the days of Lab-L.. The early frontier. It was wonderful, it was nirvana, we all played nice in our own little sandbox. Cindy and Liza were wonderful moderators, etc etc etc. And before the Lab-L list we all had fun reading the letters to the editor in the LQ's. Does anyone here remember how some of those used to read??? This swipping at each other was going on back then as well.

Well, this ain't your mothers internet anymore. This medium has grown and grown... I would guess to say that the readership on this forum far out distances the membership of the Lab-L list.

It is impossible to expect either me, or Beverly to sit here on our keyboards babysitting the couple of thousand people that come through here everyday. It ain't gonna happen. IF someone alerts me to something inappropriate, I immediately take a look and remove it. That is ALL you are going to get out of me. I do the best that I can, but believe it or not, I really do have a life outside of this computer.

As far as the allowing of anonymous posts, here's the deal.... if YOU all of a sudden had a problem with something... (anything from Epilepsy to TVD) would you really want to post a question about it using your real name?? I would guess not. The anonymity allows us to ask questions with some degree of assurance that we aren't going to have people pointing at us saying **Ahhhhaaa...did you see Joebagofdoughnuts post asking about Epilepsy??? HE MUST have it in his lines!!!

My best advice to the people that are unhappy with this forum, is to invite you to go somewhere else. There are plenty of **nice** lists out there where everyone congratulates each other, share puppy photos, puppy breath, long walks on the beach, litter news, prayers to the Patron Saint of Dogs, well wishes etc etc etc. So PLEASE, if that is the type of list you'd like to belong to....go there. But for crying out loud... quit ur bitchin here.

This forum has a life of it's own. I try not to interfere with it too often, as it has a way of righting itself when it does drift off course. I am not saying that I approve of the inappropriate posts. I don't like them anymore than (most) of you do. I'll remove them when alerted to them, and then hope that the list gets back on track. The people that make a commotion about it, are just feeding into the antagonizer's game. Let it go. If you ignore them long enough, they'll go away. Really, they will.

-Jill

finally!!!! Thank you, thank you , a million times THANK YOU

Hear, hear!

Jill, I can understand why occasionally someone might want to remain anonymous when asking advice for a particular problem.But there are lots of people who don't know what they are missing by always remaining anonymous.They didn't get to play in our sandbox and wasn't it fun! That's why I told my story.

"Yes - I recall Cindy calling me a "knuckle dragging gorilla."

Hey...Cindy could be not very nice at times.

I agree that anonymity has its pluses at times and I hope that is never taken away from us.

For some reason other breeders …not all…love bad news or hearing that another breeder or their dogs have something they can latch on to and run with it.

I think Jill does a very good job with his forum.

Jill, Well said!! Thank you for this forum

Jill wrote:

"Well, this ain't your mothers internet anymore. This medium has grown and grown..."

And unfortunately, the nastiness and the virulence with it...
I get your point, Jill, I really do. Please, don't take it personally. To babysit thousands of "primadonnas" can't be easy at all. I fully understand. But this doesn't mean one has to accept bad behaviour.
Today, anything seems appropriate to say or do on the net.
And people can do it just because they can hide behind an alias. They seem to think: Why bother how other people feel? They don't know me, so I can say whatever I like. If I hurt anyone, so what? Not my problem. It's my god damn privilege. I couldn't care less.
No wonder this world, the growing web included, becomes more and more nasty and vicious by the hour. Where has the fellow-feeling and the sympathy gone? Are those quality values lost forever? Have they suddenly become old fashioned and inappropriate? I don't want to accept that.
Maybe I'm just too old to find pleasure in messages from so called trolls who thrive only when being virulent?
I like this forum a lot and read it on a daily basis. Have done for many years. But I can't help feeling sad over the fact that far too often the language here is not compatible with good form. It wasn't like that at all in the early days.
JMHO.

I too am a charter member of Lab-L and disagree as to why the list lost popularity. Lab-L not only limited topics but would publicly embarrass people if they were too adamant or controversial as if that equaled nasty. We couldn't discuss the AKC Standard even as the issue went to the US Supreme Court! As Lab-L gradually had less and less dialog of substance it became obsolete.

I also remember the accidental posts. Susie Q had made public comments of roses and sunshine about something and then a much less flattering private reply was accidentally posted. It was the same Susie Q but she was not at all like her public persona. Which was my point - people are who they are when no one is looking. People aren't nastier because they are anonymous. They are nasty because that's who they are.

For me, the other lists are like cocktail parties. Everyone is complimenting your bad hair and oohing and aahing over your kid's photos all the while passing out their business cards. Where's the substance? The occasional decent into meanness on this list is worth the true picture we get of our sport.

I applaud Jill's balancing act and think that most of the time this list is the right mix of free speech and responsible behavior.

I like web forums, because they allow me the opportunity not to participate or read if I don't want to. On the other hand, I like regular email lists (such as Lab-L was), because they come into my inbox without my having to go look for it.

I personally quit Lab-L, because I grew tired of "Pookey had a birthday today..." posts. I'm old and too serious now . I like more meaty/serious conversations. I started an email list for more experienced fanciers, and enjoy the quiet of that list. Unless there is something to talk about, it's pretty quiet, but there are no anonymous people there. I like that too. When we talk, there is something to talk about. Ahhh.. the best of both worlds.

Jill, bless you for what you put up with, and bless those folks that speak their mind under their own names, knowing the trolls are going to take an otherwise valid thread down the primrose path.

I have to admit, that I have a sick fascination when watching a troll talk to themselves, trying as hard as they can to get someone to react to them.

Jill, your list, your call! I for one think you could use an army of helpers, but you do a fine job!
Dian Welle

I usually don't use my own name as you can see. I don't really think too many people have the know how or time to crack IP addresses and solve mysteries of the identity of anonymous posters. Also, I wish this format did have a spell checker. Your comments are a reflection of you. If they are misspelled or grammatically incorrect, they reflect poorly on you. Short of cutting and pasting your posts into word, you can't spell check. In spite of this many don't even take the time to give their posts a once over before posting. This takes less than one minute. I like to remain anonymous on hear for two reasons. First of all I post from multiple IP addresses. Secondly, I don't want any bias responses from people who know me. Some may be overly good and some may be overly bad. We all have friends and enemies. I like to get unbiased advice.

"We all have friends and enemies"

Isn't it sad that people have "enemies" in a group where we all love so passionately the same thing. We all make mistakes, we all screw up, nothing is perfect. I wish people could be more forgiving, have better senses of humor and remember life is cut short without warning or notice. When it's over, no 2nd chances to forgive and move forward.

Yes, this is a glass bubble and wishful thinking.

The ultimate discipline here is to IGNORE the trollish posts. I've seen some do just that and continue with the discussion at large. Bravo to you!

How do you extinguish unwanted behaviors in your labradors? By praising the desired behavior and not attending the unwanted with a response. Any attention, positive OR negative, is better than no attention at all when it comes to acting out.

Crimeny, even the Amish use the ultimate punishment with their own members...shunning!

I was in Costco yesterday. It was about 4:30 PM and all the sample stations had disappeared. As I pushed my cart down the aisle adjacent to where there must have been a sample station, I saw 3 cups & spoons discarded atop products. It rankled me and I wondered, "Who are these people who trash the store when there are garbage cans less than 20-30 feet away?" Then I wondered how many cups had been passed out? I am willing to bet hundreds and hundreds of samples were passed out. Hmmmmm. Guess that means virtually everyone put his or her cups in the trash.

So what do I imagine the litterers are like. I suspect they are like our Forum trolls, maybe even the same people. Why do they do this? It has to be out of spite. And why do people do spiteful things? Usually out of anger. Who knows at what? But having made this connection, I decided these people should be pitied, not scorned.

So now when I read the trolls posts, I will imagine a lonely, angry person taking it out on the rest of the world. I can't help them, but I will feel sorry for them. Under no circumstances will I keep the ball rolling by replying to their pitiful posts.

I live 6000 miles away from my hometown and oceans apart from most of my old friends.I've been very ill this year and haven't been able to get out to shows to visit with my new friends. So after years of staying away from forums I've started reading this forum in the past few weeks. I was so surprised to see all the anonymous posts.I wasn't expecting it.It seems to be in vogue.

Posting anonymously doesn't allow you to form relationships.I'm sure this sounds strange, and I'm not trying to be crude, but it reminds me of the bathhouses in San Francisco where people had anonymous sex through holes in the wall. And yes they did do that back in the days before AIDS.

It just popped into my head.

Anonymous interaction. No Strings. No commitment. No repercussions. Do it and forget it.

I do see Jill's point about sometimes wanting to ask questions about something like epilepsy. That is a valid reason for posting anonymously.But why (for instance) when you are telling Jill what great job she's doing. That's a nice thing to say. I don't understand why you wouldn't want people to know who you are. As a new comer to this forum it seems odd to me and I don't understand it.

I made life long friends on Lab-L.If you haven't had that kind of forum experience you've missed something.

I love meeting old friends on the forum. That's why I'm here. If you don't sign your name I can't say hello and tell you how happy I am to meet you again.

Oh Saudjie, YOu are too funny. I know you weren't tryng to be funny- but oh my - sex through the knotholes and anonymous posting on the internet.... too similar!!!
J.

Judy!!Hi! I miss you.

I DID say it was very strange but do you know what I mean?

And if it made you laugh all the better. This is suppose to be a hobby and we're suppose to be having fun.

Hi Saudjie,

It made me laugh, too. We need more humor on this forum instead of everyone bickering.
I enjoy coming on the forum, because I have learned so much. I appreciate all I have learned.

Donna

For those of you pining away for the days of Lab-l it has recently been resurrected. Not as high traffic as it used to be, but many still lurk there.

There was nothing provocative, virulent, vulgar or unkind in any of my posts. It was meant to be a humorous take on this list which I enjoy. Apparently there was more truth in my humor than I knew.

If you don't understand why people don't use their names, you didn't read the replies. They don't have the stomach for personal attacks (being compared to a pervert is a good one) or they want a subject discussed on its merits (not agreed with because a person is well known). Those are valid reasons and anonymity includes those people and in my opinion they add interest and variety to this forum.

There was no trolling here and there is more to upsetting others than not signing your name.

Saudjie (whom I have never had the pleasure of meeting) is dead right about one thing. There's some history and length of experience behind one of the most often heard sarcastic questions among breeders. It goes something like this: After the latest in a long string of insufferable events (bad hips, eye problems, OCD, allergies, other orthopedic failures, TVD, size issues - but only after the unfortunate standard debacle - torn cruciates, ripped out toenails, diabetes, stillborn litters, parvo, ad infinitum, ad nauseum) one breeders turns to another and asks, "Are we having fun yet?" Of course, the unspoken answer is invariably, "You know what? Yes - because I'm with you, and with other friends, and isn't this a wonderful time to be in Labradors?"

So there you go - and after our Specialty (LRCGD) this coming weekend when I have some time, I'll publish an extended version of this on my blog. I've been inspired! Thanks, Saudjie....

"But I can't help feeling sad over the fact that far too often the language here is not compatible with good form. It wasn't like that at all in the early days.
JMHO."

I agree, very much- but we must remember- in the early days , this kind of stuff wasn't around on internet- so it wasn't seen or advertised- but bet your bottom's it was happening in other ways though behind people's backs.

I try to stay out of stuff like this - because any comments to any issues have recourse - bet i'll get a private sarcastic remark or even a negative one here- doesn't matter. and if we don't "see" it, it'll be heard somehow.

You can patrol the forums and email lists all you want- it will never change and some people will never change. I am grateful for my browser back button and move forward onto the next one.

I work tech support for cellular phone services- - and all day i hear complaints. realistically- they wouldn't be calling if there wasn't a problem right??- but- my point: i don't know them - they don't know me, and i don't ever take it personally.

regardless of all the negatives- there are way more positives on forums like this- which is why i stick around. The good people out there outweight the bad. i learn from this forum all the time- so for those that behave : THANK YOU...and for those that can't or won't- i feel sorry for ya's.

To: Do I have to?

"There was nothing provocative, virulent, vulgar or unkind in any of my posts"

I totally agree with the above statement. I had a good laugh when I read your original post.

I wasn't comparing you to a pervert. I didn't think about the Bath House thing as a direct response to your post and I'm very sorry if what I said upset you. Anyone who knows me knows would never hurt anyone on purpose.It is not in my nature.

I was thinking about the general concept of Anonymous Interaction.

I think of the World Labrador Community as a big family.My family.We fight sometimes but when the going gets tough we're there for each other.

But...

You can't get close to people if you don't know who they are. If you post anonymously I can't go up to you at Potomac, give you a hug and tell you how happy I am to finally meet you in person.

My husband is a VERY Conservative Brit and he's a gentleman. I've never heard him swear in our 9 years together. We had a long discussion the other night on the subject of Anonymous Posting (even when people are saying nice, funny,and interesting things) because I find it so mystifying.

I told him that it reminded me of sex through the walls in SFO Bath Houses. He got it immediately and thought it was a good analogy. It never crossed his mind that I was attacking anyone or trying to be vulgar.

We were discussing the concept of Anonymous Interaction. Interaction without responsibility, repercussions or commitment.

Sex was incidental to the analogy.

Your post opened up an interesting discussion both on the Forum and in our home. I've enjoyed reading both your post (which was very well written and quite clever)and the reply posts. I do hope you will accept my sincere apology if I caused you any distress.

PS You guys have me really paranoid about my spelling!