What percentage of breeders would you say breed on prelims alone?

Have you heard of many readings changing from prelimed examination to the finals?

I have bred on just prelims - a calcuated risk.
Yes, ratings can change from prelims to finals. We wouldn't have to do finals if prelims didn't change every once in a while.

I don't know what to say percentage wise, but I would use a male if he was prelimmed at about 15 months. I wouldn't use him if he had been prelimmed at 9 months.

With parents with good OFA elbows, I would use a boy with good PennHip scores.

We had a truly outstanding male a number of years ago that had a waiting list of people wanting to breed to him. He wasn't from our lines. We found out, when he was about 18 months old, that his mother had been bred on prelims that were normal at 22 months. After recovering from the litter an appropriate length of time the owner did her OFA hips. Her right hip did not clear. We had our boy done at 24 months, and guess what? His right hip didn't clear either. Several judges told us no one would ever beat him in the ring if it came down to movement. We never saw any evidence of anything until he was ten, and arthritis showed up in his spine. I still can't talk about it. Bottom line, we are a product of our experiences. Mine weren't good on this score, so I would really have to think hard before breeding on prelims. Just my opinion, for what that's worth.

Reputable breeders - very low
"Rare" variety breeders - high
Backyard breeders - what clearances?

There can be good reasons to breed on prelims, but I would wait unless it was a very very very special breeding.

I would do it if there was a good enough reason, ie bitch in heat at 21 months. I base my decision from the research from the ofa:
"A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months). "

Well I for one can attest the above statement direct from the OFA website as FALSE. I just had a 12 mo OFA prelim excellent girl come back dysplastic and she had no injuries or trauma to cause it. Keller simply said "this is a classic case of HD". Having a medical background I have always thought they are out of their mind to claim 100% in something medically related. Nothing medically is ever 100% except death.

Define "reputable"?

You claim: very low reputable breeders do. I know of many big name, reputable, as in worldly known for breeding outstanding Labs, conformation Labs, working Labs, great producing Lab breeders with waiting lists long up the way to 2015 who breed on prelims.

Yet, those who shout out loud "not until he's or she's 2 and certified" and not those long time "what I consider reputable" breeders.

A reputable breeder, one who breeds for quality of health, conformation, workability, who actually wins almost all the time, and for decades, know their lines and know when they CAN breed on a prelim.

Of course, nothing is 100% guaranteed but in the old school as they say "he who doesn't risk never gains anything" and the risk taken was to breed on a prelim, of course depending on the rating they got and knowing their line.

I don't think you can give an accurate percentage of breeders who have bred to dogs on prelims. And as has been posted, the statics of xrays that change at the final readings.

In my 20+ years on the breed, I have only breed to two dogs based on their prelims. I had done a lot of research on both of these dogs and knew that there was a lot of soundness behind these dogs. The first dog I bred to on prelims was my foundation dog. He was from an extremely sound line of dogs and I am thankful that he is behind all of my dogs as I have been very fortunate to continue that soundness in my line today. He OFA'd Good on his finals (elbows normal). The other dog I used based on prelims is owned by a friend and had not been proven yet. I loved him and his lines and the two breedings I did to him (both my girls came in heat about the same time) were mutually beneficial to us. I knew his lines were bred from sound dogs and the breeders behind those lines putting soundness as a priority in their breeding program. This dog was prelim'd at 15 months and later was certified as Good/elbows normal.

However with that said, there are certain lines that I would never breed to on prelims nor would I necessary consider to use in my breeding program due to either first hand experience or just researching the lines and knowing the soundness is just not there.

There are no guarantees when breeding. Even if the dogs are certified at the time breeding is no guarantee they won't produce a problem. We all must take a calculated risk and be prepared to handle the results-good or bad. But just because a breeder chooses to breed to a dog based on prelims doesn't mean they are bad breeders!

Dianne

Is one year.

I would consider using a male on prelims, but would rather not a female.

"His right hip didn't clear [cut]. We never saw any evidence of anything until he was ten, and arthritis showed up in his spine."

If you saw no evidence of arthritis, pain, poor movement or anything else indicative of dysplasia in the dog until he was ten, it seems to me that your experience wasn't as bad as it might otherwise have been.

Arthritis in the spine at the age of ten, which is pretty aged, is not an uncommon occurrence in dogs who are active and athletic. I'd have been thrilled to have gotten to that age with my dog before arthritis set in.

"I would do it if there was a good enough reason, ie bitch in heat at 21 months. I base my decision from the research from the ofa"

Why not wait until next heat at 27 months in that case? What is the hurry??

I also feel that any "research" that claims that dogs that prelim excellent end up excellent at a 100% rate is faulty. Not saying when the prelims were done (8 months vs. 20 months? Big difference!) for one, and realistic personal experience tells us this information is full of holes.
I had three puppies prelim excellent at 8 months out of the same litter. Only one remained excellent at 25 months, the other two went "good."
I, too, have bred on prelims twice in my life, once to an 18-month-old dog from a line I knew very well, and it was probably one of the best and cleanest litters of my life. The other time, I bred on prelims to a 21-month-old dog that the owner basically lied to me about. I saw a brief report from a vet that said he cleared hips and elbows at 18 months, and the breeder said she repeated this at 21 months and it was the same. Guess what? He was NOT sound, and the repercussions of this mistake were far-reaching in my breeding program for years.
Do NOT breed on the stud owner's or vets say-so for a prelim, ALWAYS GET A COPY OF THE OFA CONFIRMATION OF A PRELIM!!! JMA!

"If you saw no evidence of arthritis, pain, poor movement or anything else indicative of dysplasia in the dog until he was ten, it seems to me that your experience wasn't as bad as it might otherwise have been."

Well, that depends on your viewpoint. Yes, he lived a relatively long life, although our other dogs' lifespans are typically 13-16. But when you have to wash the #8 Labrador in the country because of HD, well - it just tells me based on his familial history that you had best be very judicious in making the decision to breed on prelims.

"I'd have been thrilled to have gotten to that age with my dog before arthritis set in."

My point was (and I should have been clearer) when you have to put down a dog whose movement was absolutely poetic because he cannot so much as walk to go potty at the relatively young age of ten, its simply one of the most tragic things.... RIP, baby boy.

If you go back up to the post by "hidden", you will see the stats according to the AGE at which the prelims were done and how accurate they are.

I prelim at a year, but have had three change at two years. The goods went to something worse. I will not breed on prelims. Don't know of a reason that urgent.
And I can not see a reason to do a young female.
Let her mature. Show her some. Is she that nice. Would just really think on that one. JMO

I have prelimed girls at 22 months. Why? Because I know she would be coming in heat and I didn't want to wait for the next cycle and winter pups, and I didn't want to wait a year.

I wonder if some of your dogs that were prelimed with a good report and then done again to certify, only to fail, was a matter of positioning? I have had that happen.

I also had my boy done just before 1 year. He came back a good. I had him redone when he was 2 years and he came back excellent. You just never know.

"when you have to put down a dog whose movement was absolutely poetic because he cannot so much as walk to go potty at the relatively young age of ten, its simply one of the most tragic things...."

Yes. I didn't understand that from your earlier post. I'm sorry. That must have been awful.

After being in this for 15 years I understand the importance of positioning for evaluation of the joint. And believe me if the fix were that easy they would have been reshot immediately. However arthritic changes on the femur head have nothing to do with positioning or radiographic technique. Also our ortho vet was a past OFA evaluator, so they know the way to shoot a film. I just share my experience so you don't get a false sense of security when reading the 100% statistic on the OFA site. I know she was not one I ever worried about on her finals b/c I was lulled into believing she was 'in the bag' so to say.

"I also feel that any "research" that claims that dogs that prelim excellent end up excellent at a 100% rate is faulty."


That ISN'T what the OFA said.
They said the y will PASS not remain remain excellent...

If you read my original post it clearly states that she prelimed at 12 mos as OFA excellent and did NOT pass at 24 mos!

I had a bitch OFA Excellent at 2 years old. Never bred her for other reasons. At 5 really arthritic. Radiographed her at 5 and was dysplastic. On NSAIDS ever since. Things change, so you never know.

OFA is just one of many tools offered to breeders. How one uses it is up to their individual discretion. The only time I say "Never" in terms of breeding is :"Never say Never". There is no such thing as a sure thing.

Yes I understand that but OFA never said that an excellent prelim at 12 months will 100% PASS either...I believe the statistic was somewhere around 97% - you just happened to be the unlucky 3%!
Sorry...

Anyone ever have a "Fair" prelim become "Good" or "Excellent"?

Yes, I have. One of my bitches prelim'd "Fair" with finals "Excellent". It was a matter of positioning, and frankly I didn't want her put under again to re-do the prelims. Needless to say, I changed vets for hip/elbow xraying....

It is possible that the people posting are unfortunately the 5 - 10% that do not have normal readings on finals. Though it seems there are many poor results among us, I am sure there are triple as many positive stories of people SUCCESSFULLY breeding on prelims and having normal finals. Its personal preference and i don't think a breeder should be condemned for doing so if the chose, especially when the statistics are in our favor.

I guess it comes down to if you are a gambler (and if there was a 89-95% chance I win the lottery, I play everyday )

Carla

Welcome back to the forum. How's the foot coming. Is Mid Jersey on the horizon( I hope)?

Well said!!

Thanks so much, Gail, and to everyone else who sent good wishes. I'll know if I've been behaving myself when the surgical followup takes place on the 9th. And yes, am planning on coming to Mid-Jersey, wouldn't miss it for the world! Friends will show the dogs while this old bod is parked in a chair. Spectating will seem weird!!

It seems to be accepted that a certain percentage will change AFTER 2 years as well. It will be interesting to see the response to the OFA request for follow-ups:

"Follow Up Submissions for Hips & Elbows

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In an effort to generate further aggregate long term follow up data, effective immediately, the OFA is offering a new resubmission service.

Similar to the OFA’s preliminary or consultation process, Follow-Up Studies will only be read once, by the OFA’s board-certified in house veterinary radiologist and owners will be sent a report with the findings. The results from these “Follow-Up Studies” will not alter or risk the earlier official OFA consensus reading on which the animal may have received a hip/elbow number. The fee for this service is $15.00. To submit, simply follow the normal OFA hip submission process, and clearly write the words ‘FOLLOW UP STUDY’ at the top of the application.

The primary benefits are twofold: the OFA will generate additional information on changes in hip status over the lifetime of the animal, and owners will benefit from the same information without risking the earlier rating assigned by the OFA.

Funny how they word it - "risking the earlier rating" sure sounds like they assume most breeders are looking for affirmation rather than truth