How Gordy puppies mature,slowly or Fast????

No matter what the response is here...Gordy is only half the picture for your puppies...your bitch, of course, being the other half.

Well here's something interesting, I have 3 pups out of Gordy and the same bitch. 1st go round, my baby boy seems to be developing quite quickly and never really went through that "ugly" phase. His sister, litter mate also seems to be developing fairly quickly although not quite as fast. Their baby sister out of my repeat breeding is developing much more slowly. A pistol and adorable but definitely developing more slowly.

I also agree, it's not just sire, it's not just dam, takes 2 and it has to do with the lines as well.

My Gordy son is developing slowly, but he certainly may be getting that from his dam's side since she was the same way.

One can't point the finger at the stud for everything.

developing slowly is a good thing...not bad....a lab should reach it's maturity at @ 3 yrs old.....3 cheers for the slow developers!

I have been told that the dogs that develop slower actually look better longer. Any truth to this from your opinion(s)?

In my personal opinion & experience...yes, the slower developers look better longer and are usually more orthopedicaly sound. Just my 2cents.

We have two girls out of Gordy and the same dam(repeat breeding). Both very pretty, but totally different. Georgia was very balanced and correct from the beginning. Lucille has matured much slower. She is two and a half and still maturing.

Why not just ask Vicky. Seems the correct thing to do. Ellie

Gordie was sterile for a while, is he siring litters again? - does Vicki still have him ?

I think it's awful to be starting rumors like this. Like Ellie said, if you have a question, call Belquest. I have two 3 month old pups sitting here with me that were sired by Gordy, so no, he's not sterile.

Where does this stuff come from ?

Here we go again! It is an innocent question and there are many more opinions on this forum from people who have had litters out of him then you would get with JUST Vicky. Jeez, pretty soon we will not be able to discuss anything except the weather! Relax and CHILL OUT these are just questions about dogs not your kids.Some of you people need to have another life outside of this hobby.

Sorry my reply was to Elly, not to the sterile remark.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with discussing how his pups mature. My comment was directed at the sterile question.

I don't know where his fertility stands today but he is halfway across the world. I'm kind of surprised no one knew he was sold to a breeder in Japan , it seems to be common knowledge and far from a secret. Do call Vicky and ask any further questions.

Thanks all I know.

to Brd: Gordy is NOT in Japan. He's at Belquest with Vicky. You're thinking of Glenn Plaid who is indeed in Japan. I have numerous pups right here from the boy. I assure you he's where he belongs.

How can you ask what you will get from a stud when there are so many combinations of bitches bred to a particular stud dog. Now if you have a line breeding then you should be able to know in advance what strong points and weaknesses you will get.

Come on Ellie, people are not born knowing all that you seem to know, that is why she is asking the question.If you have been reading the other replies you will see that other posters have been educating her on exactly that.If we continually ridicule people who are asking what may seem to you as ridiculous questions then where are they to go for the answers? What happened to mentoring these new breeders? This is a great opportunity to pass on to the upcoming breeders all of the knowledge that you have gained over the years. Let's not screw up the opportunity this forum gives us!

I am raising a service puppy for my local MD service
group that is a Gordy son...donated by Belquest Kennels......I live in MD...Gordy kids are well known
here.....

Can't say anything other than what I know...Zeus
is a stocky big boy at 18 months...quickly trained
and is still acting like the gawky teen that he
really is......Gordy produces gorgeous dogs....
Zeus gets compliments everywhere I take him for
training purposes...he's probably a slower maturing
lab, but has awesome potential for what we hopefully
will get him trained to do....be either a hearing
or service dog......

Jane Harford(will always post my name) and Zeus
RRK Labs

For those saying "just ask Vicky", that's easier said than done, unless you are in her inner circle. Much more info here as one poster said. Don't think Vicky's kennel help will answer your questions 'cuz that's who you'll be talking to.

True enough, but they certainly would be able to verify that he is not sterile and whether or not he has been sold. Those are the kinds of questions to which I was referring.

I have to add that it was through contact with other breeders who had bred to the same stud that I was able to identify where a certain trait I saw in my boy actually came from. This type of discussion can be beneficial and is more a learning experience, much different from stating untruths on a public forum.

Replying to:

"True enough, but they certainly would be able to verify that he is not sterile and whether or not he has been sold. Those are the kinds of questions to which I was referring."

I don't know why this won't die here but we just saw Gordy yesterday and I can assure you that he is NOT in Japan.

Gordy is at Belquest in Mt. Airy, Maryland. Period.

As far as being sterile, I have 13 day old puppies by Gordy. Gordy is not sterile. He is available fresh, extended or frozen.

Bonnie

Dr. Anthony: Are you also a repro specialist and did you examine his semen under a microscope? Speaking in today's tense he may be fine.

He did have quite downgraded fertility unfortunately. I hope they have been resolved the problem as he can be a wonderful stud for certain bitches.

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Replying to:

Replying to:

"True enough, but they certainly would be able to verify that he is not sterile and whether or not he has been sold. Those are the kinds of questions to which I was referring."

I don't know why this won't die here but we just saw Gordy yesterday and I can assure you that he is NOT in Japan.

Gordy is at Belquest in Mt. Airy, Maryland. Period.

As far as being sterile, I have 13 day old puppies by Gordy. Gordy is not sterile. He is available fresh, extended or frozen.

Bonnie

Replying to:

"Dr. Anthony: Are you also a repro specialist and did you examine his semen under a microscope? Speaking in today's tense he may be fine."

He did have quite downgraded fertility unfortunately. I hope they have been resolved the problem as he can be a wonderful stud for certain bitches."

Actually, my girl Lacey was bred in late July by a repro specialist (happens to be my local vet as well) and absolutely we examined his sperm under a microscope and even did staining and a dead/live prep. My vet is very thorough.

He has great motility and a very high sperm count. Saw it with my very own eyes up on a big screen. Couldn't miss all those swimmers, swimming.

He is an 8 1/2 year old dog and I would imagine if he is used frequently in the course of a week, his sperm counts would probably be lower than if he was used only a few times over the course of a week. That would be normal and natural.

However, he is still producing quite nice litters (mine was 6 which is what Lacey seems to have) and I know a few people with puppies older than the age of my puppies who had larger litters (one had 9)

These rumors that he is in Japan and he is infertile, are just that, rumors.

So the answer to your question, simply, is no I am not a repro specialist but yes I did examine his sperm under a microscope with a repro vet.

and did you?

Bonnie

JMO, but it seems like the question has been "lost" in the gossip. I appreciate the fact that people are pointing out the obvious - that puppy maturity has a significant part to do with the bitch line not just the dog line. Also not every dog that matures quickly becomes overdone, nor does every dog that matures slowly develop the way we all would hope. Every breeder needs to do their best to know BOTH the bitch and the dog side of their lines.
I am saddened by the anon posters using pseudonyms who drop "nuggets of gossip" or partial pieces of information under the guise of a question or information. There is enough BS in dog world without adding to it through innuendo.
Ok, I am off the soapbox and I hope everyone has a wonderful day with their Labs!!

I think it should be pretty obvious to anyone who reads this nonsense that these comments about Gordy are nothing more than jealousy couched in a very tasteless manner. Really, it was a very sad effort at slander in my opinion as it should have been known that so many not only have young pups by this boy, but so many have been so successful with pups by him. As a person who has been reading many many pedigree in an effort to learn I see this boy EVERYWHERE:)
Although this thread did get off topic, I would say that it was very nice to see people stepping up and letting someone willing to say such malicious things know that there are people who will set the record straight.
While some may think that the conversation only fed into a possible troll, this is kinda what I meant in an earlier thread when I was trying to to say that while yes, you should ignore a troll to make it go away, sometimes it is better to just shut it down with the truth.
Annie

FIrst of all, I love Gordy and what he produces but bred to him last month with extended semen and repro vet was not impressed with the quality. 40% motility to be precise.

This was a rebreeding as well, the first shipment of semen was dead on arrival. I had another shipment sent two days later and they were almost dead. We missed,

To In the Know:

I am sorry you missed twice with your girl. Stuff happens. (btw, it is my understanding that 40% motility if there are sufficient numbers, and you are doing an AI, should result in puppies)

But as I said, Gordy is an 8 1/2 year old dog and if say you happen to get the third collection of the day (he is a very popular stud dog) you probably get a lower sperm quality. doesn't mean he is infertile, and doesn't mean you should go around talking about him being infertility. You should discuss the issue with Vicky and if you are interested in using him again, discuss getting the first collection of the day after he has had a day or two off.

Motility was outstanding when we looked at it. Not just good for an older dog, outstanding. Being local, I had the advantage of having it come fresh from the dog who accompanied my girl to the vet for the breeding.

Bonnie

I think you misunderstood me as I was NOT saying that either of these statements were true. If you read my earlier post, I reveal that I, in fact, have young Gordy pups. I was suggesting that rather than spread rumors, those questioning should contact the source.

"But as I said, Gordy is an 8 1/2 year old dog and if say you happen to get the third collection of the day (he is a very popular stud dog) you probably get a lower sperm quality."

Bonnie, after reading your above comment it's clear that you really don't know much about the breeding process even though you talk a good game. Makes me wonder what else you claim to know but don't. You really need to go to some reproduction seminars and take notes.

But as I said, Gordy is an 8 1/2 year old dog and if say you happen to get the third collection of the day (he is a very popular stud dog)



Third collection of the DAY? And what if you get the fifth collection of that day from the same 8 1/2 year old dog ? Is it fair to collect a stud dog that many times a day and expect semen that will produce a normal sized litter if any?

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Replying to:

To In the Know:

I am sorry you missed twice with your girl. Stuff happens. (btw, it is my understanding that 40% motility if there are sufficient numbers, and you are doing an AI, should result in puppies)

But as I said, Gordy is an 8 1/2 year old dog and if say you happen to get the third collection of the day (he is a very popular stud dog) you probably get a lower sperm quality. doesn't mean he is infertile, and doesn't mean you should go around talking about him being infertility. You should discuss the issue with Vicky and if you are interested in using him again, discuss getting the first collection of the day after he has had a day or two off.

Motility was outstanding when we looked at it. Not just good for an older dog, outstanding. Being local, I had the advantage of having it come fresh from the dog who accompanied my girl to the vet for the breeding.

Bonnie

Sorry, but 40% motility is not acceptable by my repro vet. My Vet would not even bother to inseminate with 40% motility, and would probably tell me to quickly find a backup stud.

Replying to You Said It:

"Third collection of the DAY? And what if you get the fifth collection of that day from the same 8 1/2 year old dog ? Is it fair to collect a stud dog that many times a day and expect semen that will produce a normal sized litter if any?"

I do not own Gordy, I was only using a made-up example, I have no idea if he is collected multiple times a day and frankly it is really none of my business if he is or he isn't.

I could have made-up an example where the person shipping the sperm was somewhat careless and used old extender without realizing it, the packaging was wrong and the sperm did not survive the trip to your kennel very well, but left in outstanding condition. Does that example work better for you?

However, again, I believe that 40% motility, with good numbers of sperm, doing an AI, should result in puppies. And when I saw Gordy's sperm, they were highly motile, over 90% and this was in late July.

And really, the person to openly discuss this with is Vicky Creamer, not make statements that he is infertile (or was infertile) on a board with 1000's of users who may not know better and base it all on your experience with one of your bitches.

Bonnie

Replying to Disbelief:

"Bonnie, after reading your above comment it's clear that you really don't know much about the breeding process even though you talk a good game. Makes me wonder what else you claim to know but don't. You really need to go to some reproduction seminars and take notes."

Actually I know very little about most things and am always learning, one way is from others more knowledgeable than myself. And I am always willing to share the little I do know or have learned.

One of the things that I have learned (sadly) is that there are many people out there who are willing to cut someone else, or their dog, down for some (personal) reason.

Such has happened with this discussion about Gordy. What started out as a discussion about how fast Gordy puppies mature, ended up talking about Gordy being in Japan and being infertile.

Checked my statements with my repro vet, who actually knows Gordy. But guess he doesn't know much either because he didn't see any problem with anything I said.

Sorry you do and sorry you need to make it personal.

Bonnie

OMG what ever did we do without the internet to spill our dirty laundry on? Now EVERYONE in the world will know your business in the speed of light. Gee mabye someday it will turn around and hit you smack in the kisser when you are not looking.
As a matter of fact that semen motility will get you puppies. It only takes a few.
Amazed

I would be disturbed to know the stud dog I used or was to use could possibly be collected more often than a maximum of once daily, preferrably every other day.

Some of the popular studs are known to be collected more often than that(depending on ownership.) There is a good CHANCE in my opinion that can contribute to the increase of misses or singleton litters. This seems to be occuring more often and this type of situation might (and I say MIGHT) be one of the many reasons for it. Collecting too often or not preparing for shipment properly can lower motility and actual sperm count be it from Gordy or any other stud dog.

Bonnie, you claim these were "made up" situations but I have heard Gordy was collected more than once a day in the past. I never would have brought it up if you didn't. You were very fortunate to have him right in backyard and might have recieved the first collection of that day, lucky for you and possibly unlucky for the collections later in the day.

I think it's sad to see a stud dog used to the point where the bitch owners are not given what they pay and plan for, a good, fresh semen collection prepared properly especially with the extenders and technology we have including MiniTube.

You can't just "make up" a story and expect others not to take it as what might actually occur given the business relationship you have with that particular stud dog owner.

This is why both bitch and stud dog owners need to communicate and work together when a breeding is planned. This usually is the case. Communication and trust are very important, a breeding can be planned years in advance with high hopes involved.

This is just my opinion, I have no plans on debating this issue back and forth. I am not looking to knock any stud dog. Gordy is highly respected and has put out many fine grown dogs and grandpups that have done wonderfully in all venues. I hope he continues to do so but we do need to watch what we say or we will be quoted, especially on a public list read as often as this one is.

"One of the things that I have learned (sadly) is that there are many people out there who are willing to cut someone else, or their dog, down for some (personal) reason."


Yes it is sad, I have heard of this happening time and time again by people we would least expect it of due to their success.

Once something is put in writing, let's say email for example, it can also come back and smack us right in the kisser can't it? Some of us would be amazed at who is capable of doing these things.

Reply to Bitch Owner/Anon for now

Wish people would really use their name and stand behind what they are saying.

"I would be disturbed to know the stud dog I used or was to use could possibly be collected more often than a maximum of once daily, preferrably every other day."

Personally I might be disturbed, might not, depends on the dog and the situation. Some dogs can handle it and some dogs can't. But everyone is free to handle dog business in their own way. I can only dream about having a stud dog where I would have to really think about these concerns.

"Bonnie, you claim these were "made up" situations but I have heard Gordy was collected more than once a day in the past."

I would have no idea. It was simply the first possibility that came to me. But I am pretty sure, unless you are Vicky, or worked for Vicky, you have no idea either. Rumors are often untrue and just meant to devalue.


"I think it's sad to see a stud dog used to the point where the bitch owners are not given what they pay and plan for, a good, fresh semen collection prepared properly especially with the extenders and technology we have including MiniTube."

This sort of hints at something that I am not comfortable with. I hope you are not implying that I suggest this was SOP based on knowledge because that is very far from the reality.

In general, yes, what you said is the ideal for every collection. But I would guess that when you are doing a lot of stud collections, once in a while things happen of a negative nature and the results are less than ideal.

"You can't just "make up" a story and expect others not to take it as what might actually occur given the business relationship you have with that particular stud dog owner."

Actually I didn't make up a "story", I offered a possible explanation, of which there are probably twenty others.

I have no business relationship with Vicky Creamer about Gordy. None. Nada. I do happen to co-own two dogs with Vicky, a bitch and a dog. I am sure many people on this list co-own dogs and bitches with others, some of them big name breeders. It doesn't mean they know anything about what the other person does except maybe make great puppies they want to buy.

I am not as important or as "in the know" as you are implying.


"This is why both bitch and stud dog owners need to communicate and work together when a breeding is planned. This usually is the case. Communication and trust are very important, a breeding can be planned years in advance with high hopes involved."

Absolutely. I am in totally agreement.

And I would like to add that both the bitch and the stud dog owner need to be fully honest with each other about their particular dog's faults and shortcomings, as they are known, so that breedings can be done as wisely as is possible.

And now I am done, I usually talk too much over email anyway and I have some wonderful puppies I want to go kiss.

Bonnie

oh Bonnie, you certainly dont have to worry that we think you are so important or in the know must of us realize you have only been in the breed for a few minutes and dont have magical breeding info

Slowly or not.
In Japan or in Russia.
GORDY IS ONE OF THE BEST PRODUCERS IN HISTORY, PERIOD.

On your enormous continent, there is probably only a small handful of top producing Labradors active today, dogs with the potential of leaving their mark on our breed. The owners of these dogs don’t exactly have to wring anyone’s arm for their dogs to be used – perspicacious breeders go to them in their own interest.

But when you leave your local country club to find yourself projected centre court at the US Open, keep in mind that you didn’t get there through your game, only thanks to your opponent.

If you’re less than happy with the outcome, then take it up with the person concerned. Few people are less tiresome than a bore… but a bore with a sob story takes the cake!!

Am looking forward to seeing Gordy in the Veterans class at Mid-Jersey and Bare Bones.

I love Gordy. One nice boy. Great temperament. Great kids. I would not care if he were collected twice in a day. He might not do anything the next week. It only takes a very little for a litter. If you have a boy frozen they collect him a second time within an hour and say the second is better. Hutch, will tell you a boy can be used ALOT in a week as long as you give him time to recoup later. These kids/bdr/newbie are just stirring up trouble. You go Gordy ! You have a huge fan club

No one was talking about the amount of sperm, but the quality (which = motility). You need to know what you are talking about before you preach!

hoping that most newbies can pick through the fights for info needed but there is A LOT of truth that comes out of threads such as these.
YES Gordie has missed a lot recently. At one time they were only offering frozen while they figured out what was wrong.

as far as doing a second collection within the hour and having that be okay per Hutch, you are passing along incorrect information and using his name to back it up if you MUST do a second collection wait several hours, 4 is best. Hutch does NOT advocate using a stud day after day as this sort of practice does bring down his sperm count. especially in an older dog. that crap of misinformation about stud dog management that has been passed along in this thread is simply amazing and I hope newer people WON'T take is as the truth

Having been to his (Hutch) seminars more than once he did say a boy could be used every day for a week. He did say then you would need to let him recoup for a time. No, he did not say do it. He was saying a stud dog could without hurting anything. I have my notes on this one. And the collection after 1/2 hour for frozen was a reproduction specialist. Thats how they do it. I did not pull this info out of the air.
We all learn different things as we go along. What I took as facts were from specialist in the field. Sorry, about Gordy.