What would you do if your mentor for years went ahead and said she will breed a bitch knowing she had failed an eye test? She said they all do it. She does not want to lose the line.
I hear some do the same with hips/elbows fails.
I am sick in my stomach knowing she might breed her. I do not want a pup from that litter. Would you end a friendship? Or, just say her choice her problem? I have told her how I feel. Each to their own?

Annie

Her choice, her problem.
Ask her why she is going ahead with the breeding and listen to her answer...you learn from good decisions as well as bad ones and nobody can predict that this is a bad one. She is your mentor because you want to learn from her...that doesn't mean you have to parrot her decisions, so relax and let her shoulder the burden. She should hopefully know her lines, and genetics are equally important to clearances.

I agree, listen to her reason that she is going to breed the dog anyway even if it didn't pass, I would find out WHY the dog didn't pass and it might just be something that is a iffy issue with CERF that they allow bred on some breeds but aren't sure about in labs so they won't pass the dogs. Juvinile cataracts are one reason I would consider breeding a dog even if it didn't pass and i'm the clearance nut... just remember I said consider not that I would.
Aloha,
jackie

How did her bitch fail the eye test?

The bitch failed with cataract.

On breeder's site it says "all breeding dogs have approperiate clearances'

Not saying what is right or wrong but remember the further you get down this road you realize there is not just black and white. There is also multiple shades of gray. It has been said on this forum many times, we do not breed just clearances but for the whole dog.

>>What would you do if your mentor for years went ahead and said she will breed a bitch knowing she had failed an eye test? She said they all do it. She does not want to lose the line.<<

Were I a novice trying to learn, I would keep my mouth shut, and my ears open. I would listen to why she may be doing this, and how she will prevent recurrence. I would have quietly and discretely formed my own opinion, and banked that opinion in my treasure-trove of knowledge to help me operate under my own set of ethics when it is my turn to make breeding decisions for my own dogs.

>>I hear some do the same with hips/elbows fails.
I am sick in my stomach knowing she might breed her. I do not want a pup from that litter.<<

Was someone forcing you to take a puppy? Probably not. All you would have had to say was "not this time, thanks".

>>Would you end a friendship?<<

Let's see, you violated a trust by confiding in several thousand of your closest friends (even if anonymously), tried to mentor your mentor, and passed judgment on her in public with perhaps a thimble full of knowledge. Friendship?

One might believe breeding a dog who has failed any clearance is 100% wrong, and if so, they must police themselves to not do such a breeding. If what they're doing is morally wrong in your well-educated opinion, move on quietly.

Dian Welle

There are different kinds of "cataracts" - was this is an inherited one or an insignificant one?

Very well said Dian!!

While I agree one should look at the whole dog, I think it is wrong to claim all breeding stock has appropriate clearances if that is not the case. It is misleading and in some cases downright dishonest. For those who breed dogs that have failed clearances, do you disclose this to potential puppy buyers or only if pressed for an answer?

I agree with all of the above. It takes a very long time to truly understand all the ins and outs of breeding and why some do what they do. There are things I never would have done when I first got into Labradors that I would think twice about today....and have!

Did she not get a CERF number? CERF will pass punctate cataracts as breeder's option. There are many dogs out there with this note on their CERF number - sometimes the dog won't have these the following year's exam. Significance of this type of cataract is unknown.

I agree that there are no "black and white answers" and I've done "stuff" that is in the gray area many times when planning a breeding and have seldom if ever lived to regret it.

I've learned that most anyone can figure out who is posting here even WITHOUT using their real name so sadly IMHO you've betrayed your friend

Dian, that was a wonderful post.

A wise old owl sat in an oak,

The more he heard, the less he spoke;

The less he spoke, the more he heard;

Why aren't we all like that wise old bird?

Her choice, her problem.

Sorry but if I bought a dog from a breeder that developed cataracts I would suck it up. BUT if I found out that the bitch had cataracts and she bred her anyway I would be p****d off.
I already have a PRA affected dog, he is not going anywhere but here, but I want to reduce the chances of eye problems in future.
I know many breeders who say they CERF annually but I now know you can check & they do not. Optigen has no database you can check which is scary.
Just my opinion but I would like this situation more if there was full disclosure and I somehow suspect there won't be.

On how often this mentor breeds without clearances and for what reasons. If it's for financial ones I wouldn't want a "friend" or mentor like that.

If this is a single or infrequent instance you are aware of and she let you know about it you could have questioned further why she decided to do it in this situation. She might have a very good reason and she might not. Not every mentor belongs in that position and the opposite, JMhO.
You should give her a chance to explain (teach you) when she feels you can breed with a fail. I think everyone's done it for different reasons but don't share it often and only with those they trust. Apparently she trusts you.

Do you co/own the bitch, she offered you a pup for what reason?

I can understand your concern but best discussed with the mentor first, then make your decision if you chose not to work with her anymore.

For crying out loud-- are there other reasons, such as the things beyond the "eye test" (whatever that means) that this breeding will contribute to the breed?????
It's way too easy to base a decision on one factor and not cond=sider the whole picture. That's what separates the novices from the people who deserve to be "mentors".

Maybe someone's pulling everyone's legs and want's to stir the pot? I hope not again.

No one knows that she didn't talk to her vet or a specialist and the vet and she agreed that whatever disease wasn't inheritable, or if it was, is so rare in Labs that it seemed a moot point.

Just like people who breed on failed hips/elbows--how do you know the dog wasn't injured, and a teaching hospital or specialist agreed that if the injury wasn't there, the dog would be sound?

How do you know a failed cardiac isn't a congenital but non-inherited defect?

If her puppy buyers are uncomfortable with her breeding practices, then by all means they will choose to spend money elsewhere.

There are things that my mentor did, that in the first weeks of our friendship, I thought "Gosh, I'm not so sure about this," that now I understand and am comfortable with.

Whatever it is--if you think she's behaving unethically, on the whole, then put your money where your mouth is and find a new mentor instead of using the "friendship" to dig up dirt and talk behind her back.

This poster never clarified the type of cataract she/her is talking about. Punctate cataracts can be very insignificant - just little specs on the lense that can be caused by sand in the eye. On the next evaluation, this situation may be gone. I know because I have a male with this and I called CERF and the Opth Vet to clarify. Other types of cataracts can be significant and CERF will NOT issue a CERF number in these situations.

You can have a mentor and we all need one. But the final concern is how you do your own breeding program. If you don't co own this dog. Then just let it go. We all know breeders who do things we would never do. With dogs and with people. I have a PRA dog and a dog going blind with cataracts and because of that would never breed a dog with ANY eye problem to put in a family. I also purchase a show dog with very bad hips and because of that place my pups with ANY hip problem. I did not breed any of these dogs. But they keep my own breeding program pretty strick. Not going to do it to someone else if I can help it. We all have our code.

I have a mentor that is a friend AND mentor. No matter what, the one thing I would never do is come to a forum and publically start a thread like this. Someone else even said, it's a small world and people figure things out. I have more respect for my mentor then this.

I would go directly to this person and get answers. If I was not happy or not comfortable with the answers, I might then go to other experienced breeders and ask their opinions without mentioning names. No bias created.

"This poster never clarified the type of cataract she/her is talking about. Punctate cataracts can be very insignificant - just little specs on the lense that can be caused by sand in the eye. On the next evaluation, this situation may be gone."

True -- I had a bitch that had one eye with a punctate cataract one year (none for 4 years before that) and it was gone the next exam. The ophthalmologist told me it can be caused by a scratch like from a plant/thistle when doing field work (and she was doing hunt tests and hunting at the time). They advised a re exam in a year and to just watch it. Not all cataracts change -- the one my dog had was described as the size of a "pin prick". Everyone hears the word "cataract" and immediately thinks the dog is going blind. Had this one stayed it would not have affected her vision at all. She is now 11 1/2 and vision is fine, just going deaf.

Such disloyalty and ungratefullness, it disgusts me !

Just a thought here - it may be time to stop right now, right here, before things get any uglier.

Take notice of the fact the Orphan Annie never came back. I think this was a set up to get the board in a tissy and it sure did once again. I would stop the thread here also. I think someone was looking to cause a problem here and aren't there enough already?