Looking for suggestions of items to include in a co-own contract with a pet person, meaning I would be showing the dog and they would just be enjoying the dog. ;)

I have something already drawn up but thought all of your experience could be helpful in this instance.

You are very smart to ask for help on this one. I do not have an answer except to say I have heard of alot of problems along these lines. The pet people not wanting to part with the dog later to be away from the family. Not doing any training so when you get it for a show it is wild. While you are not looking spaying the dog and saying, we just changed our mind about our girl being shown. Just make sure they really understand what you want from them and the dog. JMO Sure some work well.

I have had 3 co-owns with pet owners. Only one of them have worked out. The other two have turned out to disappointments. The one that has worked out is a bitch that I kept until 10mo of age. She's the only bitch that I have kept from one of my girls and has outstanding clearances. The family loves her tremendously and she comes back to me for a litter. These folks have been fantastic owners and very consciencious about their co-own w/ me. Couldn't ask for a better co-owner in this situtation. The other two that did not work out were males living with families. Both families were careless and both dogs were severely injured (one by car, other by stupidity). I received no monies for these dogs since I was still their owner of record on their AKC papers. However, my contract stated that the families were responsible for all medical expenses related to their care while in their possession. I covered all breeding related expenses. I won't co-own w/ people in a pet type of home, however I will co-own w/ a breeder. My experiences with breeders or people wanting to show have been positive.

NOT a good Idea. If you are lucky enough to have one good enough to show keep it or give it to a friend who likes to show.

Some good advice I once recieved. If you put the dog in a pet home you have to be prepared to let him/her go. SO if it is someone special, keep them yourself. Otherwise, if it works out great, the down side is the dog is in a good home getting all the attention they deserve.

And don't forget...
-keeping a collar on the dog so he has a big dent around his neck when you get him to show.
-keeping the dog "a healthy weight" according to their pet vet when in actuality it makes you cringe to see the spine and ribs on your beautiful show dog...
-taking the dog to a groomer weekly thinking they are doing him a favor by blowing out all that nasty excess hair!!
-Not returning emails in a timely manner
-not having a clue how to take photos of the dog so you can see how he is maturing and if you even want to bothered with this silly co owning with a pet person business anyway!

I was a co-own and a "pet" person. I chose to show the dog myself though but if the agreement were to have the breeder show them I would have had no problem. I am now into this as a hobby with three wonderful dogs, all on co-ownership and I show them all!!! Sometimes co-ownerships turn out to be wonderful.

I am a pet owner who would love to get into showing, and understand and agree with breeders who want to protect their puppies and dogs with limited registrations and co-owns. If I bred a litter of pups, I would do the same thing. But from my standpoint, I would think that in order for a co-own to work(never having had one, you understand) it should be between people who trust each other and have the same values regarding their dogs. In my case, I would only co-own a dog (or bitch)with someone who would be accessible, who would consult with me, make decisions concerning our dog with me and not on their own, and would not expect to take the dog to whelp or show without my input or participation. My dogs are my family, and I would no sooner hand over my dog to someone than I would my child. But, I certainly allowed and welcomed trusted friends and family members with my children. And my dogs. So, that is where the shared values would be important, for me anyway. That having been said, my dogs are healthy, not too fat, not too thin, trained, socialized, and just wonderful. So I guess if I had had the experiences some of you have described, I wouldn't co-own with a "pet person" again either. But people are different. Please don't assume all "pet owners" are alike. No offense intended. Just how I feel.

Very well said....(I'm a pet person too!)

I guess it boils down to that you need to trust the person you are getting into this contract with. I have heard of great co-owns and I have heard of terrible co-owns. I can't imagine that if you go into a co-own with a practical stranger, someone you probably wouldn't even invite to stay in your home as a houseguest, you might not have a successful business arrangement.

Show Bred:

You're singing MY song!!! hehehe.

Don't forget teaching Fido to sit for his treats and then denying it big time.

*S*

My new motto is if I can't afford to have the dog lost from my breeding program, I keep it. I do have some wonderful co-owns but some that have real short memories too. Once people showed up with a rolling fat chocolate male of mine whose goal it was to dislocate my arm from my shoulder. I told the owner he had to show it. He showed it terrible, it wouldn't show bite, sat, etc..... Be dammed if it didn't place (at a specialty) and you should have heard the talk. Ah geez, it's all supposed to be fun. I've never had him out to further shows though.

Too funny.........

Well, I guess I would be the worst co-owner ;)

My girl is a healthy weight, well obedience trained (got her CDX six weeks ago) she sits and everything. Her breeder co-owns her and showed her to her CH. She has been bred, and she will whelp in my house, but the litter belongs to her breeder, except for the one pup I get back, 2nd pick.

I would not hesitate to enter into a contract again with my girl's breeder.

Pet people aren't all that bad. Try involving your pet people in some activities, take them to a show, encourage them to do some things on their own. Tell them about an appropriate show weight and proper feeding and training.

Don't expect the moon, but don't paint all pet homes with the same brush.

OH! You're right!! I DID forget the sit!! LMAO!!!

Thanks for reminding me...

I'm not blaming anyone of course, pet people just have NO CLUE what it takes to keep a show dog, a show dog.

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Replying to:

Show Bred:

You're singing MY song!!! hehehe.

Don't forget teaching Fido to sit for his treats and then denying it big time.

*S*

My new motto is if I can't afford to have the dog lost from my breeding program, I keep it. I do have some wonderful co-owns but some that have real short memories too. Once people showed up with a rolling fat chocolate male of mine whose goal it was to dislocate my arm from my shoulder. I told the owner he had to show it. He showed it terrible, it wouldn't show bite, sat, etc..... Be dammed if it didn't place (at a specialty) and you should have heard the talk. Ah geez, it's all supposed to be fun. I've never had him out to further shows though.

Too funny.........

You're probably the type of person we wish we could all find when we were entering into a co-own w/ a pet person. Unfortunately, people like you rarely come along our way.

Been there done that. I've put forth a ton of effort with my pet c-owns only to be disappointed in the end. I'll stick to co-owning with breeders.

Louis, Plum, Annie, Rhythm and a direct quote from your web site "We are excited to have co-ownerships with wonderful families on 2 yellow males, one from Vicky and Sage and the other from Plum and Mark. They will be our fall and winter show prospects. We hope to have lots of fun with these boys."

WHAT??!! Were you talking to me?? Cause I have no earthly idea who you any of those dogs are! LOL!!
You got the wrong the person dear...

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Louis, Plum, Annie, Rhythm and a direct quote from your web site "We are excited to have co-ownerships with wonderful families on 2 yellow males, one from Vicky and Sage and the other from Plum and Mark. They will be our fall and winter show prospects. We hope to have lots of fun with these boys."

How about the breeder that shows and breeds many dogs including the dozens of co-owns within pet homes? That same breeder will have the pet co-owner jump when she needs their stud dog for a breeding within a couple of hours or less and the pet owner always complies?

There are some (remember I said some) breeders that overdo the pet co-owns for stud service and litters for all the wrong reasons. A litter is whelped by the pet co-owner and of 9 pups they are allowed to keep one for their hard work, how generous.

There are two sides to this story. I've seen this side too and it's not a pretty one. Before you knock all pet homes for co-owns realize how some have been taken advantage of by breeders looking to make a buck anyway they can. I'm sure many of you have heard of these situations, perhaps it's best not to have a pet home co-own although there are a few thst work out great, not many but a few.

Goodness, those names looked familiar, nice to see an albeit anonymous visitor to my website.

As I had said, I have some wonderful co-owns. Of those, not all are pet people, and some have gotten dogs from me before and we have great relationships. For the record, there are co-owns that aren't listed on my site, either. Some of them choose themselves to show their dogs or get a handler as well. I have some rewarding co-owns with good friends. And for the record, Annie is now spayed, her family didn't feel they could part with her for litters and asked if they could buy her outright. I let them, no problem. Thanks for the reminder to update our page. Once we get fully settled in our new home and hubby's puter gets online, we'll do it.

But my "motto" still stands.

After seeing it in operation with a friend, I would NEVER do it. Pet people don't understand the whole process of showing, and have no idea that a Lab might be away every weekend or for months at a time. They aren't as careful or cooperative and might view the breeder as "obsessive" because of the necessary limits we want to place on the dog. They can be resentful. This dog was picked up for a show and was morbidly obese. Apparently they had ignored the requests of the breeder and let the dog clean up the table every night.

If I can't keep a beautiful pup or place it with a breeder, the pup gets to be a beautiful pet. Or, I don't do the breeding to start with.

It seems to me that many of these co-owns to "pet people" failed because they weren't mentored. You, as the breeders, do have an obligation to these people, as well as the dogs, if you really care about their welfare. I owned my first showdog outright, but had NO guidance from his breeder at all. I was fortunate enough to have found the right handler, and a mentor, also, but it took years before that happened. Pet people don't know many of the things that are involved in showing, simply because no one has taught them! When you breeders all began, you didn't know absolutely everything, did you? Someone taught you - you could pass that along instead of griping about how 'ignorant' pet people are. They simply don't know any better. Give them the same chances you had. JMHO

HAHA!! Great response Linda!!

Ah, on the contrary, you can mentor someone who wants to be mentored!

Exactly! Mentoring applies to owners who are interested in potential SHOW or BREEDING prospects. PET people want a pet, and you are placing a show dog there for your own convenience. Pet people have no idea what owning a show dog means, and it likely isn't anything like what they want. It's not as simple as just "leaving them intact".

I have seen a lot of obese dogs in the ring that are owned and shown by breeders. For some reason, dogs in working condition, even though required by the standard, are not attractive to many breeders and are not often rewarded in the ring. I know when my dogs are in working weight they would never do anything in the show ring. If we expect pet owners to keep fit dogs, shouldn't breeders be the ones setting the example?

Well said. I placed an adult male with a young couple and no breeder could have provided him with better care. He was no longer being shown but they still wouldn't leave a collar on him because they were afraid of it leaving a mark on his coat! He recently died and the family will be getting his young son to fill the void. This couple have learned more about breeding and are educating their friends about every aspect of the breeding world even though they have no intentions to ever breed.

My post didn't go where it was supposed to - it is in response to what "on the outside looking in "posted.

I'm glad to see someone brought this up. Great explanation of why some pet homes don't work out.

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Replying to:

It seems to me that many of these co-owns to "pet people" failed because they weren't mentored. You, as the breeders, do have an obligation to these people, as well as the dogs, if you really care about their welfare. I owned my first showdog outright, but had NO guidance from his breeder at all. I was fortunate enough to have found the right handler, and a mentor, also, but it took years before that happened. Pet people don't know many of the things that are involved in showing, simply because no one has taught them! When you breeders all began, you didn't know absolutely everything, did you? Someone taught you - you could pass that along instead of griping about how 'ignorant' pet people are. They simply don't know any better. Give them the same chances you had. JMHO

I have had some very good experiences co-owning both as the breeder and as the co-owner.

I was fortunate to have a mentour with my first co-own and not only has she mentoured me but we have become wonderful friends for over 10 yrs now.

since our first co-own I have purchased 2 more Labs from this breeder.
and My foundation bitch for my chocolate line is from her. I am greatful for the opportunity , because of her I am now a breeder. We have gone thur many changes including a kennel name change but she is so supportive to urge me on.

After listening to all the talk about awful "pet people" I have to say you need to be more careful who you pick for co-owns and maybe you should try and see it from their perspective, i.e. what are they getting out of it.
For myself I have had a number on co-owns and I should have picked my breeder much more carefully. What a nightmare.
I have kept my dogs in show condition and championed and titled all of them (a balanced dog has titles both ends). Breeder / co-owner has never paid for single show entry, x-ray, blood test, vet bill, etc., yet gets all the credit for my hard work.
Better still if I want a puppy from one of these dogs I have to pay for it :(
You bet your ass I am going to make it impossible for her to breed them. She is going to get a nice bill before that happens.
I am going to shop for my breeder much more carefully next time.

There are good and bad breeders and good and bad pet homes.

I think placing breeding stock in pet homes is a great idea with the right relationship between the two parties. Why condemn a dog to a miserable life in a kennel with 10 or 20 others so you can (maybe) breed it two years down the road provided it passes all the clearances, turns out and is healthy, when it could have it's own home and family and a nice life and if it turns out still be used for breeding? I and many friends do this with friends and family members. One of my friends even pays for all the dogs food in their pet homes and in return a family who may not otherwise be able to afford it gets a really nice dog. They take really good care fo the dogd because they know they have a really good deal.
Having a dog with a collar mark or a little overweight is a small price to pay and can easily be corrected.

I couldn't agree more with "On the outside looking in" about mentoring. If you as a breeder are not close enough or do not have enough time to keep close tabs on how your dogs are being kept then maybe you have TOO MANY dogs.

I found my breeded (now mentor) as a pet person. I was looking for a reputable breeder and a healthly yellow female. I spayed her when she requested followed through with everything she suggested. Any questions I had she was an email or phone call away. I kept her updated on her "pet puppy" as often as I took pictures... (now that I look back on it Im thinking...WOW, We really bombarded her on puppy pictures from this one pet pup.) But on the other hand, I think, it really showed how much love this little pup is giving us.(and we are giving her)

Fast forward...This special pet and 2 show pups later..... From this wonderful woman I have gained 3 WONDEFUL GIRLS and a great friend... Are we BISS Champions? ...no... Do I have a friend and mentor for life? You betcha!!!! I have gained something more than I ever hoped for. I am very fortunate!!!

Show Bred wrote
"I'm not blaming anyone of course, pet people just have NO CLUE what it takes to keep a show dog, a show dog."

What kinds of things does it take? What should pet people do to make the showing easier?

Truthfully I think that breeders should not co-own with pet homes unless the pet home has some (even small) amount of interest in showing. I think prospective pet owners should go to a show and see what is involved, how the dog should look and behave and then they would have an idea.

Newbie - if you are considering a co-own with a breeder - make sure you understand what you get out of it:
What is expected of you and what you will have to pay for and what the breeder will pay for?
Will the dog have to return to the breeder for breeding?
If it is a male that they want to breed to females then will you have to drop everything when your breeder wants the male and take him back for every stud service or will you learn to do that yourself?

Will you be paid any part of any stud fees if it is used by breeders other than your breeder? If your male dog is successful and used often it could be a real big incovenience for which you are compensated nothing.

If it is a female that is bred will you be entitled to a free puppy if you want one (or will it be another co-own?)

There is not much required to keeping a dog in show condition or ready to show. Nor is there much training required to show a dog. It is not hard to train a dog to stand, or permit an examination or socialise it. Nor is it hard with proper nutrition and exercise to keep it at a healthy weight.

BE CAREFUL. Most breeders are lovely people who would love to have a good family for a co-own but there are some unscrupulous ones just waiting to take you to the cleaners.
Make sure you really know who you are doing business with, because for them it is just that, a business.