How can some people that call themselves breeders have 3, 4 or even more litters within a few days of each other? And, how can that many litters possibly be properly cared for and socialized? Just to make it look good, some of these people belong to lab clubs. Puppy mills are what they are and many refuse to look at it that way. Am I being unresonable?

Troll alert!

None yer !

Come on, I'm not trying to be a troll...this is a legitamate argument!! Or maybe you don't care that people are cranking to many puppies out at once.

We can't police these breeders, and since we do not know who you are taking about, we also don't have enough info to judge. You have a right to your feelings, but the feeling of this forum is let it be.

yep, you're being unreasonable. mind you own business
and do what you feel is best for you and your dogs.

It is my business when it affects the breed. These people don't do a darn thing with their dogs except breed, breed, breed. Alot of them don't even have the proper clearences. It's a shame that more folks don't see it as a problem. I'm sorry I asked if I was being unreasonable and what I should've asked is: Am I alone here?

Your absolutly right, they can't care for a socialize that many at once. The people on this forum close their eyes when they think you are either talking about them or one of the "ULTIMATE" "TOP NOTCH" breeders, wouldn't want to say anything to put themselves in a bad light! LOLOLOL

You should mind your own business and learn how to spell. It is disGusted not discusted.

When people complain about what others are doing -- my first reaction is to think that the complainer is jealous.

This may not be so - but it is the impression that people get.

maybe these are litters they are listing because they co-own the girls and are responsible for finding them homes? Maybe these litters are being born at the co-owners' houses and indeed are being socialized and well cared for? or, maybe not. don't know. just not willing to condemn when the facts and circumstances are not known.

Spelling isn't the issue here and I'm far from jealous. Can't you tell from my posts that I'm DISGUSTED with the puppy-millers that are ruining it for others?

No one is condemming anyone, just stating facts and they asked a question, everything is an issue if nota popular pat the back subject.

Oh yeah and if I have spelling errors I don't care!

These biches have one owner, she belongs to my club. I also know of several others that do not co-own that are doing it. I wouldn't be making an issue if I didn't have the facts.

What exactly would you want us to do about it
We can't control what others do, just educate puppy buyers so they will hopefully look for better socialized and cared for puppies. Put your energy into what you can change and forget what you can't.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO???? If this bothers you so much maybe speaking with the Board of your Club might help? An "Ethics" issue, perhaps??

I seriously doubt "talking" here will change anything

Meanwhile, educating the public is the best "we" can do?

I agree with you and no one has the right to tell you what can or can't be discussed on this forum. You did not make disparaging remarks about any specific breeder.

I came across a website today with 14 litters either on the ground or due very soon. I could not believe someone could possibly be doing the right thing by their bitches or pups with that many pups being whelped or on the ground at one time. 14? Many breeders haven't whelped that many litters in a lifetime!

If you think it's the right thing, good for you. I DON'T and I'm entitled to my opinion! This is a public board and nothing the original thread starter said is against the rules.

Shall we all hide in a plastic bubble and act like things like this don't occur? This is just why new laws will eventually go into existence that will harm everyone, because of people like this.

That's my opinion, like it or not.

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Replying to:

How can some people that call themselves breeders have 3, 4 or even more litters within a few days of each other? And, how can that many litters possibly be properly cared for and socialized? Just to make it look good, some of these people belong to lab clubs. Puppy mills are what they are and many refuse to look at it that way. Am I being unresonable?

TYPO Don't = doesn't SOWWY

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Replying to:

I agree with you and no one has the right to tell you what can or can't be discussed on this forum. You did not make disparaging remarks about any specific breeder.

I came across a website today with 14 litters either on the ground or due very soon. I could not believe someone could possibly be doing the right thing by their bitches or pups with that many pups being whelped or on the ground at one time. 14? Many breeders haven't whelped that many litters in a lifetime!

If you think it's the right thing, good for you. I DON'T and I'm entitled to my opinion! This is a public board and nothing the original thread starter said is against the rules.

Shall we all hide in a plastic bubble and act like things like this don't occur? This is just why new laws will eventually go into existence that will harm everyone, because of people like this.

That's my opinion, like it or not.

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Replying to:

How can some people that call themselves breeders have 3, 4 or even more litters within a few days of each other? And, how can that many litters possibly be properly cared for and socialized? Just to make it look good, some of these people belong to lab clubs. Puppy mills are what they are and many refuse to look at it that way. Am I being unresonable?

It seems from the response you got you hit too close to home with the responders. All they want to discuss is baby strollers and unentered dogs at dog shows. That way they don't have to deal with the REAL issues in this "hobby". Amazing!!!

Feel how you want to about it, but complaining on this forum won't change anything. Taking it up with the club and educating buyers is just about the only thing you can do. Why post here just to put someone else down?

Maybe you're right, but we can't say much cause no one else here knows who you're talking about and it wouldn't be right to say their name here anyway.

Yes, overbreeding is a problem, I think we can all agree on that, but we don't understand why you felt the need to bitch. My back hurts, but does that mean I should get on this forum and complain about back pain? Let's keep these posts useful, helpful, and when possible positive.

Even if you didn't mean to upset people here with your post, looks like it did anyway, so why not just drop it before it gets any worse. Looks like a lose cause to continue doesn't it?

BTW I am off of my MEDS so bring it on!!!!

OH yeah complaining about everything else on this forum is okay, but the real issues should be swept under the rug? I don't think so, this is a PUBLIC forum and any discussion is valid as long as it doen't violate the rules of the forum. This thread violates NO rules.If you don't like it then don't read it and please don't try to preach to the poster as to what is appropriate and what is not.

Was that really called for? Come on, saying "bring it on" on this forum is like asking for a fight. Let's try to be nice here. And even if you don't feel like others are being nice or not doesn't mean you should lower yourself to the level of someone else. No one wants to pick a fight with you or anyone else.

I never said any rules were being broken, so please don't put words in my mouth. Thank you. This is a publuic forum, and as such I was simply expressing my personal opinion, which is we can all agree that puppy mills are bad and should be stopped, that's not news. I was just suggesting a better way to deal with the problem is to go to the source rathen than complain here, when we already agree that overbreeding is not cool. Please don't read anything more into my post than that. Thank You.

Funny I came here and read this post after trying to look up a pedigree on the website of a Californian breeder advertising 13 litters between now and the end of December, 8 litters in December alone. It made my hair stand on end and my search ended right there because I did not want a dog with that kennel name in its pedigree anymore.
It is over the top and it is something we should be discussing.

Wtg Breeder6! You said it the way it is.

I agree with dicusted. It is getting to be a sad situation. What I can't figure out is how do they sell all these pups?

I'd love to know who that is????? Give us a hint???

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Replying to:

Funny I came here and read this post after trying to look up a pedigree on the website of a Californian breeder advertising 13 litters between now and the end of December, 8 litters in December alone. It made my hair stand on end and my search ended right there because I did not want a dog with that kennel name in its pedigree anymore.
It is over the top and it is something we should be discussing.

I do agree with Disgusted!

It's pitiful that these people that are mass producing puppies are allowed to belong to ANY club. They should be put out on their ear! Whatever happened to "Betterment of the Breed", or maybe some of you have never heard that expression? They are nothing but DISGUSTING. In fact, that is putting it mildly.

Am I allowed? Or won't that mean this thread just gets deleted?

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Replying to:
I'd love to know who that is????? Give us a hint???

I totally agree that sometihng needs to change. Puppy Mills are a huge problem and it's very sad. The question is, what to do that will make a difference? I think best solution is to educate the puppy buying public. However, it's also important to understand that no matter what we do and how hard we try, I honestly don't think we can ever really illiminate mills or bad breeders That said, it doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to reduce the number of them.

Here are some ways I think we can help:

1) As mentioned in a previous post, apply for wifeswap, and if accpeted show what a good breeder should be on national television and educate people about puppy mills on tv reaching millions.

2) write to your local news station or paper. Submit an article on what puppy mills are and why they are bad.

3) Post an ad in your local puppy classifieds that sends people to a weblink where they can learn the "10 reasons NOT to buy from a pet store" etc.

4) be an active member of your local breed club adn do what you can to educate people from there.

5) start a fundraiser to send money to organizations that are tring to stop puppy mills

6) donate your own money to organizations that are trying to stop puppy mills

7) organize a peaceful protest in front of a local puppy selling pet store

8) contact your state legilation about law that protect good breeders, but that would at the same time make it more difficult for puppy mills to survive.

MI CONSidered opinion is I better not be that specific.

I hate puppy mills - you can tell who is most of the time

Why don't you call the breeder out. Why not contact them, ask the question, educate, and speak your mind. What's to be afraid of exactly? I guess I'm a relative newbie, been in the breed for less than 15 yrs. but hey, I love this breed enough to confront people. Sometimes they have good answers, sometimes they tell you to blank off, and sometimes, rarely, but sometimes they even listen.

Give a shot instead of bitching about it.

Give IT a shot...


We need an edit button.

Well done!!!

On more thing...

Having mulitple litters at one time is not the real problem, while it can send up a red flag, the real concern is how well are the pups cared for, are the parents well cared for and of breeding age and having correct health and temperament for the breed? Are the pups being placed in good homes? Will the breeder take these pups back if needed, etc. Numbers alone, while the more dogs/litters the more work, doesn't always mean puppy mill. To me it matters more how they are raised and placed, and with what purpose the litters were bred.

Re Give it a shot
It is hard for someone like me to try and challenge someone like that. I have only been breeding 5 years, only had 4 litters, I am such a relative newbie.
Airing subjects like this though does educate new breeders to what is OK and what is not. That is why I think it should be discussed.

Many thanks to those of you backed me up while I was trying to make a point about an issue that has gotten way out of hand. The bottom line is that its unethical and "should be" unlawful to have more than a couple of litters at a time. To bad the state dept. of agriculture can't regulate this. Shame on the one's who do it and don't care about the betterment of the breed. They're out to make money only...sad, very sad. I will be bringing it to the board of the lab club...it will be interesting to see what happens.

wow, that was almost too easy! LOL!!!

I have never even HEARD of this breeder before just now!

That IS a lot of litters...and many (if not most) of their dogs do NOT look like Labradors should...

They aren't the worst I have seen, but they do scream puppy mill...

In PA, beginning with a K?

Nope

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Replying to:

In PA, beginning with a K?

To Discusted,
I'm so glad that you have decided exactly what is right and what is wrong for all dog breeders. Will you also be limiting the number of children people can have, telling us what kind of cars to drive and please don't forget to tell us how to vote too. I have only bred three litters over a 6 year period, I belong to my local clubs, I show my dogs, I get their clearances - I do my very best to be the model of a responsible breeder. I don't want puppy mills but I also don't need you to be the judge and jury and executioner of people you aren't even willing to speak to directly. Who made you dog God? Please mind your own business or speak to those who can influence those you are criticizing. It gets old hearing the same whining - go do something positive instead.

Try another clue?

Replying to:
In PA, beginning with a K?

Quite a few in PA like that.

Aren't they in another state now, like NV?

Replying to:
In PA, beginning with a K?

Breeder #3

SHAME ON YOU!!!

Naming the kennel here is DISGUSTING and wrong

we DO NOT need more laws to regulate how often people can breed their dogs.

I think your halo is slipping on your smiley ...

We need to do something to protect the breed we care about, ensure pet people get dogs that are well bred, well socialised and the best that they can get.

Um, thought you said CA before!?
Make up your mind!

Holy Cow!! Well, I've figured out, be happy to speak to them. Wow is all I can say. 8 litters in one month??? I'd like to visit during that. I'd lose my mind I'm sure! I had to jack up on the vitamins just to recover from my last litter

Well I know a breeder, ( a VERY well known one at that) who has bred from bitches that have had mutiple c-sections ( 6 or 7), has bred from a 9 year old bitch and it was the bitches 7th litter.Is that wrong, for me it is, yet I have had 2 litters at once, then baby sat another litter at the same time while the bitches owner was overseas, in all 29 pups at my house, it was complete chaos something I would never do again, BUT we had a ball and the puppies were very well socialised because we had to make a real effort to interact with all the babies, thankfully their ages were slightly different so it was different things for the different litters.NEVER AGAIN tho.

It's jewelry, how's 2nd hint

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Replying to:

Quite a few in PA like that.

No, all we could tell was that you are 'discusted,' whatever that means.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but what good does it do to ask your question on here other than get the list fired up? Nothing can be done about it through the list. We don't know who you are talking about. If it bothers you that much, then take action, go to your club and file a complaint, if it is a club member.

Why would I think that "Discusted" uses several different names? Bet most of this thread it Discusted just talking to herself.

breeder: WRONG!!! Discusted doesn't do things like that. Not everybody is a troll.

This has nothing to do with naming a specific kennel in this thread. This is just some info as it relates to Pennsylvania breeders.
You can now look up online PA state licensed kennels inspection reports by year on various seach criteria (name, county, city, zip code or kennel class).
http://services.agriculture.state.pa.us/KennelInspections/SearchKennelInspections.aspx

At times there seems to be a stigma. Just because somone is "state licensed", doesn't make them a puppy mill. There are different classes of lincenses depending on how many dogs are owned/boarded/transferred/sold per year. And state licensed is not the same as USDA licensed.
In PA, anyone who houses, buys, sells or raises more than 26 dogs or puppies a year are required to be state licensed and subject to inspection. (example, that could mean if you have 4 resident dogs and have 2 litters consisting of 10 puppies in one and 12 in the other and you'd have to be state licensed).

These are "PROFESSIONAL" breeders, per their site.
Where are the titles on any of these dogs (other than the ones 4 generations past)? This IS a glorified puppy mill and shame on the Golden Gate Labrador Retriever Club, the San Joaquin Valley Labrador Retriever Club and the California Waterfowl Association for letting this happen. I'll bet the clearances aren't there either.

The LAST thing we need are more laws, people. Don't worry about what breeder X is doing. Worry about what you are doing. If commercial breeding upsets you, then maybe you should try rescue. The majority of dogs out there are actually from pets that are bred once to make a few bucks. In a few years, if they pass the laws, there will only be commercial breeders because they will be the only ones left who can afford to keep breeding.

THANK YOU!! Gina!

Help is about education and assistance with rescue etc, we DO NOT need more restictive laws, it is already happening.

One day soon ppl will wake up one fine day and not have the right to breed a litter without "Big Brother" guiding them.

I agree 100%
Look at the "rules" about breeding in England! Germany...etc...

I saw nothing in the original post about wanting to alert the government and calling in the National Guard
The person is interesting knowing what to do amongst us as breeders of the breed we love. No condemnation, no governing, just questions.
Some of you get worked up over nothing, I'd like to remember some of you same people when the an "actual" puppy miller comes by and everyone is up in arms.
When your jumping on someone because they have no clearances, remember you said, "it's not our business". Remember that now!!

NO, I'm not "disgusted" just stirring up post. Just someone who can't believe the cowardness and excuses amongst you.

"Just someone who can't believe the cowardness and excuses amongst you"

Cowardness is also posting without your name!! Think about that.

Yep, no name here because I dont want to be involved in this stuff and I admit it but I do think if you are going to call others "cowards" for not speaking out, do it with your name.

Yes, you want my name? You post your email, I'd be happy to send my my name.
No one hear knows who I am except a few breeders, I'm not famous, nor do I have famous dogs, just a small breeder who busy's herself with the love of her dogs, and competiing is shows for the fun(**gasp**) of it.
However, if you insisted I would surely post my name. I'm not a coward, just would hate to have to visit all those people and write all those emails of those who would want to be nasty.

Read through the mistakes, I'm in a hurry.

and by the way, I have contacted this breeder because I'm willing to cut to the chase and ask this person why with an open mind. How about you??

No worries about mistakes....

As I said, I really do not want anything to do with this... good or bad, it's not something I think we all need to always fight about hence being anon for this. I posted to you only because I think if you are going to call others cowards then you at least need to use your name. I have no issue with you at all, sincerely I do not. I think everyone has valid points I just wish the fighting would stop, the bashing would stop and people would be nice and respectful regardless of different point of views. Calling people cowards is not nice either. If you must do that, do it with your name. Nothing personal meant by that, I would say it to anyone.

JMO

Nope, I have not, I dont have the anger you do and that's ok too. Nothing wrong with your feelings at all. Just want us all to be nice to each other regardless of emotions and different perspectives on things.

I've said it with my name countless times before, in fact I count 3 times i've ever used an anon. I'm over it, I'll handle it myself. I apologize to Jill and who ever may be influenced by this post, but If I have anything for this breed, it's passion. Like I said, I'm not the original poster of this, and I don't think the kennel or breeder is a bad person, I've said that in every post, basically inoccent until proven guilty. I've contacted them, I'll know the answers, and I guess that's all that really matters.
My point with the "cowardness" comment was because no one will just cut to the chase, we have to have all this back stabbing, it had nothing to do with voicing an opinion anonomously! It had to do with standing by and doing nothing.
Thanks anyway. I certainly pray for this lovely breed we have, hopefully the newbies(less than 15 yrs) will be a better a generation of influential breeders.

As for "discusted" what does a few years in the breed have anything to do with asking questions? I encourage you to contact them.

Why should the average "JOE" pet hobby person be respectful to all you "SUPER TOP NOTCH BETTER THAN I AM" breeders who look down on and talk down too people who do it right, but hey we like showing our own dogs, not real interested in buying a tittle with the end of the lead. Bottom line is producing that many pups in a single month is simply doing it for the money! December isn't Christmas at that time?


HMMMMMMMM

I want you to know I appreciate and respect your thoughts, your posts and your comments. Please understand that's not at all why I posted to you originally. I just think calling others a "coward" even if it's true just adds to the fire and is not necessary.
I also appreciate the fact you and I can post as we have and we are not fighting LOL guess that's somethng

So many folks tell others to post with their name, while they are posting without their name. ???

Posting without a real name allows one to be as mean spirited as one wishes to be and to say things one would never say if one had to sign their words with their name.

Wish that would be how Jill ran this forum, the quality would instantly improve. And if someone had a problem such that they did not want their name out there, maybe they could get special permission to use an alias that one time only from Jill. Sure would be different here.

Anyway...........

This could raise an interesting discussion point that I have pondered for a long time now. There are about 100,000 AKC registered Labrador Retriever puppies per year. God knows how many are unregistered per year.

Obviously, folks like labs and want them as pets. Whether that is good or bad is besides the point. Even if that number dropped in half, where are all those puppies going to come from?

Quality breeders produce only small numbers of puppies per year. The average good breeder has at most a few litters a year with perhaps 10-20 puppies to sell. Even that unnamed person who had 4-6 litters in a month produced only what, 40 puppies? Even if they did that every month, they would produce only 500 puppies a year. That is a drop in the bucket compared to 100,000 registered puppies per year.

Is that breeder of 500 puppies doing all the clearances? Great. Are they doing at least some of the clearances? Good. If that breeder is doing none of the clearances, how about some education for that breeder, from the clubs they are purported to belong to?

And how do the dogs live? Are they in small cages where all they have for a life is another litter or are they well treated, good medical care, good food, attention, exercise and people to love in their life? That matters too.

Our "wonderful" breeding programs make no impact on the breed, overall, if you take into consideration the number of Labradors there are in pet homes across the US. Most of the public doesn't even recognize our dogs as Labradors because they look different from what is coming from who knows where, I always assumed commercial breeders, but who knows exactly.

How do you solve the problem of having enough puppies to meet the demands of the public for such a nice breed, keep the quality high and make sure dogs are not mistreated in the process of breeding?

Are laws the answer? I don't think so because it is hard to make laws that don't end up negatively affecting the small, really high quality, breeders.

And if you say you don't care about the pet "public", or where those 100,000 puppies are coming from, or how they got here, then I believe you really don't care about the breed!

Bonnie

*How do you solve the problem of having enough puppies to meet the demands of the public for such a nice breed, keep the quality high and make sure dogs are not mistreated in the process of breeding?*

It should not our responsibility to produce puppies with the intent that PMs can't sell their own puppies. Ours are $1,500 and PM's sell for $300-500. Not everyone has a six figure income and an SUV in the garage. Young families are going to go the cheap route. For them, puppies are puppies; cute little fluffy creatures with puppy breath and wagging tails found in a newspaper advertisement. They'll take the cheaper puppy hands down. Large volumne breeders are doing it for the money, wear their ethics loosly and are not guardians of the breed. There are plenty of dog laws out there on the books of every state in the US. AKC has their code of ethics. The guidelines are there. Not everyone abides by them.They don't need updating and they don't need changing. They need to be enforced. Those that are turning out 20 or 30 litters a year are not even on the same wave length as the rest of us so your complaints will be ignored.

As to the orginal question, no you're not being unreasonable to be disgusted with people with multiple litters on the ground at one time who are not going a good job of caring for and raising pups. However,there may be some out there doing it right and handling the volumne but I don't know any. But once again, they will do what they want. We need to focus on our own "house".

It really is not the format of this forum that is the problem, it is in the attitudes of some of the posters. Read the "Anonymity on the Internet" thread again. what happened to common courtesy? For many, it goes right out the window when they hid behind a "screen name".

I still can't figure out what CA breeder you are talking about. Got another hint?

Yes, like another hint would help???

Re-hint...

Breeder 3 said, "MI CONSidered opinion is I better not be that specific."

CAPITALIZING on poor puppies gives it away.

Just FYI, looks like they changed their website in the last couple days and all the info stated in previous posts is now removed.

If disguested does bring this up to the Board of her local lab club I pray that they will strongly suggest that she shut up! and go play with her dogs

The site changed shortly after a post to the guest book last night it appears.....

I actually have a pet lab from them, first dog, before I knew better. 6 years ago they weren't pumping out as many puppies, the dogs were still closely related to some great kennel names, dogs were still actively shown, ALL ALL clearances WERE done. Something has happened though and I think the club affiliations were initiated when everything was still good, but we all know clubs don't police their memberships' breeding practices. If you think it's a problem and you belong to the same clubs, it's your duty to bring it up to the board. All clubs have Breeder Codes of Ethics, call them on it.

reply to Karen,
Not ALL cubs have a breeders' code of ethics.

Then they should. The 2 lab clubs I belong to do.

Does your club only enforce some rules? What would your club say about you going against AKC rules in showing your dog after cruciate surgery?
Would that not be an ethics violation?

It's not against AKC rules to show your dog after cruciate repair surgery.
Learn your rules my dear.
It's an injury REPAIR, not a modification!!

Yes, Dear,...but the AKC has also said that you cannot show a dog who has had a cruciate repair. That is why so many people said on another thread that you should just do the repair and then lie about having had it done. If it were as acceptable as you claim, then there would be no need for people to post that you should be dishonest about having had it done.

I started a new thread with the response directly from the AKC on Crutiate Repair. Please see new thread

Since the TPLO involves a surgical alteration of the tibia and the stifle joint, then wouldn't that be considered an artificial change to the dog? Since patellar resection is listed as rendering a dog ineligible for showing, and is a much less extensive surgical procedure than a TPLO (which is more akin to a femoral head resection which is also outlawed), then it is logical that the AKC would say that a TPLO will also render a dog ineligible.

"A dog is considered changed in appearance by artificial means if it has been subjected to any type of procedure that has the effect of obscuring, disguising or eliminating any congenital or hereditary abnormality or any undesirable characteristic, or that does anything to improve a dog’s natural appearance, temperament, bite or gait.
Even procedures which are absolutely necessary to the health and comfort of a dog shall disqualify that dog from competition if the former had the incidental effect of changing or even improving the dog’s appearance, bite or gait.
Procedures that would in and of themselves be considered a change in appearance by artificial means and make a dog ineligible for shows include, but are not limited to:

1. The correction of entropion, ectropion, trichiasis or distichiasis

2. Trimming, removal or tattooing of the third eyelid (nicitating membrane)

3. The insertion of an eye prosthesis

4. Correction of harelip, cleft palate, stenotic nares, or an elongated soft palate resection

5. Any procedure to change ear set or carriage other than that permitted by the breed standard

6. Restorative dental procedures, the use of bands or braces on teeth, or any alteration of the dental arcade

7. The removal of excess skin folds or the removal of skin patches to alter markings

8. Correction of inguinal, scrotal or perineal hernias

9. Surgery for hip dysplasia, O.C.D., patellar luxation and femoral head resection

go read the new thread already

That letter from the AKC and the Rules don't seem to agree on what is not allowed.

Hmmm....I knew a breeder who used to be in CA. who moved to NV. and I know for a FACT they used to have plenty of litters on the ground at once. And, some on the way. I wonder if they're one and the same.

I see the hints. They're in Lodi. I've seen that name a lot. This isn't the breeder I was thinking of who moved to Nevada.

Ignoring the current cruciate debate above this post, I wonder how any human being could possibly handle so many litters as the kennel in question. I can barely do one a year, let along 8 a month. Doesn't sound like much fun to me and if it's not fun, I'm not doing it.