Most reputable show breeders belong to (or run!) their local breed club. All breed clubs have a Breeders Code of Ethics that all members of the club are to follow. Some clubs only list litters that meet all criteria. Some allow prelims, others only OFA finals. Most all state that breeding animals must have points or titles to prove worthiness of breeding. Obviously, this is paraphrased and a quick online search of clubs will reveal the actual COE in your area.

In our club, few people adhere strictly to such policies, yet many/most do not. As a club member, what do you do when the long time breeder president/board members don't follow the COE? If you stick your neck out, you get bitten and labeled a troublemaker. Yet, as a newbie if you follow the example and don't follow COE, then people jump to conclusions and say you're not in it for the right reason! It's a double-edged sword.

I don't for a minute doubt that some of the long time breeders see quality in bitches or dogs that isn't rewarded in the ring, or they know the strength of the pedigree and have a bigger plan. But how can we tell newbies to follow the rules without leading by example?

I don't see a double-edged sword. I see the opportunity for each individual to maintain the highest standard possible. I do think that guideleines help the newer breeder to draw the line on some issues. There will always be gray areas.

Yes, they are only guidelines. I think they are
basically for the people new to breeding and it is
a good thing. The problem is, do we as long time
breeders ever tell them not everything is in
black and white and written in stone?

30yrs ago I would have never dreamed of breeding
a litter until they were 2yrs old and OFA's came
back. I have learned a lot since then and using
a boy before he was 2 but had his prelims just
happen to have given me the best dogs I have ever
owned.

Basically, we all take chances. There are no
guarantees no matter how careful we are or how
long we have been breeding. When we do make
mistakes, no one EVER forgets it!!
Then when we do it their way, who cares??

What hurts me the most is how new breeders
are treating and judging others. Did not used
to be this way. We were all new people that stuck
together at one time, and supported one another
no matter what. No Computers or Forums to bash
your fellow breeder on. Remember that?

V

Victoria you have a very good point. The longer you are in it the more experienced you are and are willing to do what others might not think is right or ethical. An experienced breeder has said to me that she has done just about everything she said she'd never do when she was a novice. Life and breeding is just not that clear cut and everyone has their own ways. People should be slower to make judgements and should spend more time concentrating on their own affairs.

IMO it's the old breeders bashing the new breeders from behind anonymous names. Just my opinion.

Isn't deciding whether someone is an "old" or "new" breeder going to depend on how long you've been in the breed yourself?

That would be called common sense. Again JMO.

Victoria ?? wrote:
"What hurts me the most is how new breeders
are treating and judging others. Did not used
to be this way. We were all new people that stuck
together at one time, and supported one another
no matter what. No Computers or Forums to bash
your fellow breeder on. Remember that?"

I am not sure in what universe you began showing dogs, but back biting has been prevalent the entire 40 years that I have been doing so We didn't have computers, but the spoken and written word passed quickly through the show grapevines until everyone heard everything about everybody. The few people who support each other usually have a common bond OTHER than show dogs - proximity, hobbies, interests - and frequently have different breeds.

New breeders were pretty much always treated like excrement by the established breeders and expected to spend money showing dogs that would NEVER be winners in order to earn the right to own a conpetitive dog. I never understood the logic of that. How does proving you are dumb enough to show a bad dog make you a better prospect to manage a good one? If the newbies are now accused of bashing established breeders, then that is very likely a response to what they were taught and how they were treated. One quickly learns to "look down the nose" at others as the result of having been the "looked down upon" object. That is human nature.

As to any "Code of Ethics" - I think it is a true misnomer and all of them should be cancelled. People are either ethical or they are not. If they ARE ethical, they will generally set goals and expectations for themselves that are higher and more appropriate than the various "codes" I have read. If they are NOT ethical, they will sign anything to be considered so and then do precisely what they like anyway. You can't legislate morals or ethics. Good breeding is never accomplished by committee, but by dedicated breeders. It requires the honest application of both art and science by someone who is self-motivated and willing to be responsible for his/her own actions.

To be pointed I don't even think should be an issue, just because a dog is not pointed does not mean it is not breed worthy, there are many other venues to exhibit your Labs. Work ability , temperment and health are my main concern as well as adhereing to the standard as closely as possible. Just because My Lab is not a Champion or pointed does not make her any less worthy of breeding. However in selecting a stud dog for her I am doing my best to find the perfect stud, workability, pedigree health and as close to the standard.....we all have a picture in our head of the perfect Lab and some pictures may be different from others and that is ok, but in My opinion points do not mean necessarily that the Lab can do a job. please don't misunderstand me I am not saying that the dogs pointed are any less or any degree more the big picture must be looked at.....some may be currently shown and not yet pointed others need to have a litter before they have come into there own and ready to show, so is pointed an absolute? just food for thought ......no slamming Please.....

very well put Maureen

To "from the other side": In my experience it's the old breeders who post using their names. It's the newbies and trolls who haven't been in it long enough to develop the courage of their convictions to post openly.

Quite frankly, it's much more common for old breeders not to post at all because of the abuse that will come their way from people with no foundational knowledge in the breed. I, on the other hand, probably should take a cue from them...

Quote: """Quite frankly, it's much more common for old breeders not to post at all because of the abuse that will come their way from people with no foundational knowledge in the breed. I, on the other hand, probably should take a cue from them... """

Oh boy, Gregg, I LOVE it!!! Maybe we should all take a cue and avoid these stinging ants nests!

Ethics are in the person, not on paper - rules have never made good dogs. I live and breed in a country where pedigrees are only given to breeders who adhere to very stringent rules: conformation, natural ability and temperament tests, health clearances and calculation of genetic liability of every Labrador. Objectively, the quality of our Labs as compared to the standard has now hit an all time low... and nothing convinces me that they are more healthy than anywhere else. It is not the FAULT of the rules per se, just the fact that they are being used as crutches to justify the breeding of dogs that have nothing to offer our wonderful breed.

Chalking up points may be a thrill to some, but can we really blame those breeders who prefer to make the cut at specialties under respected judges rather than beat 15 dogs under a wicket-wielding tooth fairy?

What is your experience based on to make these statements? People who post anonymously are anonymous and for you to draw conclusions as to who these people are, their experience and knowledge (or lack-of) and their reasons for doing so, is foolish. Your postulations are just your opinions and your generalized classifying of people is what people dislike. Take a cue, this is unprofessional.

The up and coming breeders out here are sharp and can hold their own. If the old breeders won't post because of newbie "abuse" then I say THEY can't hold THEIR own. I see far more abuse towards "newbies" than "old breeders". My opinion is unbiased because I'm not a breeder at all.

Broad terms like "newbie" and "old breeder" shouldn't be used as these terms are mostly uttered to give someone a feeling of superiority. People who are attitudinally beyond reproach, resist change and make false generalizations are poor teachers.

Get off your high horse, you're making yourself look bad.