My friend had two bitches with litters in the same week.
The One bitch ate two of the other bitches pups. Have you ever heard of such a thing? They seemed like perfectly healthy pups.

Not uncommon. This is typical alpha bitch behavior as seen in the wild. Too bad your friend was not more knowledgeable. These litters need to be separated.

You are digusting to write and ask a question like this on the forum. Unfortantly, why this person has two litters at once and cant supervise them is just irresponsible.Not to mention having the two mothers in the same room at once or excess to each other litters. Before you put two girls together she should of thought more of a danger she put those poor babies in. I think by ready this reply you got your answer.

Where are her mentors???? This should of been completely avoided. This why most breeders want co ownership on the bitch they sold to the novice.. Breeding dogs go to such detail. This is a very sad story. A lesson to be learned for many folks who dont know what can happen.I hope these two moms are seperated.

This forum is a place to get information from people who have been through similar experiences or have knowledge that may be helpful to others. Let's educate instead of judging.

I am NOT disgusting to ask suck a question. I asked to learn. Many breeders have two litter at once time. She did not have the litters in the same room. I think you are rude rude rude for replying in such a way. I asked the question because this is a Lab Breeders forum and if you don't ask questions you won't learn the answer.

Thank you to breeder, Mentor, and Jennifer for you responses.

I have seen bitches actually kidnap other bitches
puppies to raise themselves. Mostly when they
only have 1 or 2 puppies.

Are you sure the other bitch killed them on purpose?
Or maybe by mistake?

What a rude and horrible reply you gave to this person, things like this DO happen and all she did was ask, yes it is horrible that the bitch did this but you were horrible too to answer in the way you did. And as Jennifer said it is a place to ask questions and to learn not to be judged And it is access NOT excess!
Aloha,
jackie

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Replying to:

You are digusting to write and ask a question like this on the forum. Unfortantly, why this person has two litters at once and cant supervise them is just irresponsible.Not to mention having the two mothers in the same room at once or excess to each other litters. Before you put two girls together she should of thought more of a danger she put those poor babies in. I think by ready this reply you got your answer.

I think this is a very valid concern and a lesson that we can all learn from. I am sorry that your friend had to experience this, but I do not think this is normal behavior for a Lab at all.

I have only had two litters at once one time. That was almost 2 years ago and the last time I've had a litter here. Both bitches were raised together and were half sisters. I have a large bedroom and the bitches had their litters in the same room, but were able to be seperated when necessary. The younger bitch was a first time mother. Both were excellent mothers and were closely supervised. However when the older bitch came down with mastitis and had to spend some time at the vets, the younger bitch showed great interest in her litter, which was 10 days younger. I watched her closely as she went in to the box and laid down and started taking care of the other litter too! I was so pleased to see her maternal instinct so strong that she didn't mind whose pups they were, all she knew is that they needed some care. Throughout the recovery of the older bitch, I supplemented the pups with a bottle, but also allowed the younger bitch to take care of them too.

Neither bitch ever said a bad word between each other nor were they aggressive towards the other pups. But then again, the key here was my girls and pups were VERY closely supervised.

Dianne

In a wolf pack in the wild, only the alpha bitch will whelp and raise a litter in certain circumstances. If a subordinate bitch whelps a litter, the alpha bitch will either kill or kidnap the pups. It happens in several different and unreleated species.

Sometimes I wonder if some of the more instinctual behaviors, such as this as well as packmates fighting and other such things that we find "horrid", happen more frequently in packs that are not, for the most part, housedogs, or which are not whelped in the house but are whelped and reared in the kennel, or the garage, or otherwise not whelped and reared as part the human household. This is not a reflection on your friend or the situation that occured in her home or really anyone else. I simply wonder if that makes a difference. While it is an instinctual reaction, which may have been emphasized by the hormones related to whelping and rearing a litter, no one here can explain it or give a solid reason as to why it happened.

The "murdress" may have done it for a perfectly explicable reason, like the pups were dying anyways or she felt that her litter was threatened or she meant to carry them but accidentally killed them and then ate them because they were dead and eating dead pups is also an instinctual reaction. Perhaps the pups were dead in the whelping box when she found them. She may also simply have a few screws loose and your friend is lucky she didn't kill both litters completely. No one can tell, unless she does it again, and even then your friend may never be certain.

I agree that this could be a very natural behavior and without the owner actually seeing the whole thing- well who knows. I also agree though that it is more typical for Labradors to be the opposite of this. Gosh Diane Welle had a great article in the quarterly I think some years ago, complete with photos of two of her bitches raising a litter together. Diane if you are out there- pipe in. I used to own a wonderful baby sitter bitch by the name of Tabatha Trivet ( affectionately called Wingnut) who was so wonderful with puppies. If I had a new mother with a first litter who wasn't cleaning her pups real well the first few days. I would put her out to go potty, then quickly let Trivet in and she would jump in the whelping box and lick those pups till they would shine. She loved all pups of any age- some girls like them when they are little but once they get teeth, they want no part of them. She would baby sit them till they were two years old if I asked her to.
I think this is the behavior you usually see with labs but then I also think that labs have a low threshold of natural instincts as compared to shepherds, border collies and some of those other breeds, which sometimes make you feel as if they could survive in the wild. The only thing that would enable a Labrador to survive in the wild is that they would eat anything that didn't eat them first, just like they do at my house. Maybe that particular Labrador just had a healtheir dose of the 'wild ' still in her than most. Just one more mystery of dog breeding.
Judy

She was asking for her friend..... It is clearly rude of HER to put this on the forum. Im sure her friend has a vet and Im sure he would of never suggested to have two females in the same room. Maybe the original post should give DETAILs instead of speaking so common about a horrific accident. It is not of normal behavior to go into a box and each someone elses puppies... and where was the mom. Pleassssssssse dont preech to me about being rude and upset. You have to be always careful. The co owner ship means nothing.. most people do what they want and that is why these accidents happen

"She was asking for her friend"

Is it me or do I see posts quite regularly with nice people trying to get a little help for their friends withOUT being told "you are rude"????? Oh, it must be the topic because it's one that is sad and has many different opinions.. that's right, controversial topics and/or questions are not permitted, I forgot.

I think this is a very appropriate place to ask as there are supposed to be knowledgeable, experienced breeders here who have the ability to share some insight due to personal experience and/or years in this. I hope they step up and help as a few already have.

Sorry this has happened, I dont have any experience in this, insight, or answers.

Thank you all for all the information. I have never had two litters at one time, I was asking for my own information. I know a few people that have dogs that have two different liters at once and have never had this horrible thing happen.

THis is not exactly on topic but might give some insight. It was on the internet for what it's worth:


A penned sow will often eat her offspring within a few days of giving birth. The prevention: give the sow a couple of pounds of bacon right after the birth and she will raise a nice healthy group of piglets. Chickens in pens will eat their own eggs if not provided with enough calcium (oyster shells) with their grain. Chickens will eat each other if not provided enough protein with their grain. Mice will eat their young if they feel trapped and unable to forage for too long. It is better to lose one litter and the mother survive to breed again than for all to die of starvation.<

I have found that bitches settle down quickly when given ample protein in the form of ground beef, bacon, hard boiled eggs with the shells and cheese and natural sources of calcium. Also, a calsophan shot and a clean out shot (although some vets say it's not necessary to give one anymore) works wonders in looking at a comfortable and happy mom. I would never suggest having two litters in the same room but each person has to weigh that decision on their own. Some bitches are so quick about getting the sack off the puppy that they can damage or kill their own babies without realizing it, they can disembowel a baby by their enthusiasm in cutting the cord. Most of us try to be quicker than she is but these things do happen in the best of circumstances.

As to having two litters at once and being able to do it well is well beyond my energy level.

Hope things improve for this new breeder. It sounds as though she has a long road ahead of her before those puppies are weaned.

This is the part I wanted to send to the list that especially interesting. It should be read first before the rest of the post above. Sorry about that.

It was found on the internet:

>Dogs do not have a "cannibalism gene" any more than humans do. What dogs (and all animals, including humans)do have is an instinct to survive and dietary deficiencies during gestation will cause cannibalistic behavior in some animals soon after giving birth. Keeping animals penned up tends to cause these deficiencies because the animals cannot roam and satisfy their dietary needs naturally. Stress will also cause this type of behavior in some animals.

Hello????? Come on people, these are animals! Things happen, yes this is not a happy thread. I raised Dobes many years ago and you have to watch them very carefully. A friends Top Wining bitch ate her whole litter. She let people come see the pups right after they were born and the mother was very stressed. Have heard this happen in other breeds as well. As one poster said, she might have felt threatened by the other pups. I have had 2 litters at one time before and they are not anywhere near each other. We do not know the whole story just what was posted. Do not blame the breeder. Everybody jumps on the fact this is a Larador and not true lab temperment, like I said, these are animals and animals are unpredictable as has been proven over and over.

Now it is you ?? If your where the first person asking about the killings of pups by another mother,you would of not had such a severe post response. It did sound alittle gross.
You see lying doesnt help or to own ones self to deserve a honest anwser especially on this forum. You should have gone first to your mentor then came here asking for a second opinion, Ive been in this breeding of dogs for a long time. I have time and time agian to me or heard from someone else new comers doing what they want, or going to someone else for the wrong advice.
You must be new at this,or uncomfortable about asking question until it is to late. Here are some good points:
If you have a mentor go to her the next time and ask her what should I do with two litters at once. Raising one for me is enough cant imagine two... unless you have alot of help(experience round the clock).
Breeding should never be breed now or loose the chance. breed for all the right reasons.
Go online and order yourself some books. They are great books written by breeders of the breed. You can look them up for information all the time.
We or should not compare this breed or other species to excuse unexceptable behaviors. However saying that .. Labradors are dogs and they are canine first. so the wolf theory is only for explaining cannine behavior and for elimination of the extreme. Not for excusing unexceptable behavior.We breed domestic dogs and she, I might add is not a good brood and you dont want her producing again if indeed this was a wolf like temperment throw back, genetically speaking.Just like We wont keep a male that tries to kill a young pup, We can blame the name game here too, It is not aloud in my home.
good luck hope this thread was some help to you

That's the most uninformed statement I've heard on this list in at least a day and a half. These are animals folks. Animal behavior should be expected although not always wanted. We can't humanize our dogs no matter how much we want to. Sitting on puppies, eating a puppy; it's all part of Mother Nature. She's not always kind to us.

You are intitled to your opinion as well as everyone else. You seem to be very sure of yourself. Have you ask anyone on this thread if eating and smoothering pups normal. You are just stating your opinion.
A mother who sits on her babies is not a very good one. She is probably to young to be a parent, the litter is to large... It is not because she wants to KILL IT. Your taking this thread in the wrong direction. The original post claims another mother killed another Moms pups!!! This is not exceptable and I would not breed that bitch again, period. When you keep breeding what is not normal or typical of the breed.. you are not breeding to better the breed. I thought we were sopose to educate not keep things one sided...the truth hurts.we should not try to win a argument on this topic. It is very serious problem when a a owner of a dog or bitch is in the wrong hands of a novice, yes novice( otherwise this would of never happened). Bithces with new born pups. should not be left along with other dog in the house.didnt anyone hear the screaming from those poor puppies. The sound must of been horrible. wondering

considering when my bitch sadly sat on a pup she was 4 1/2 years old, it was her 3rd litter, had never happened before, was watched, and was a total accident, don't think information you just posted is correct. MANY breeders have told me the same thing, and I do mean MANY MANY.

Crap happens, it's a very good thing some of us understand our passionately loved Labradors are still DOGS and as depressing as it is, DOGS do things we can't imagine as humans.

I was explaining there is a difference between wanting to kill or desire to kill or by accident.We are not sopose to excuse well sh---t happens and go on with life. I have had two pups in one litter and have felt so grateful for my bitches offsprings. The last thing is because s----t happens is ignore undesirable traits in my bitch CH or not. she will be gone. I clarify it again.. not stating sitting on pups a murderous act.. read the entire post please! I cant believe breeders will actually condone dangerous behavior of bitch killing another bitches offspring as exceptable, geeeeeeeez

Everybody needs to realize yes s--t happens, but until you someday might have to walk in this persons shoes,(and yes it could happen to anyone of us) do not condemn her or the dog for being A DOG!

All this bitching over a simple question is why many of of novices go "anon". I have seen two litters raised closely, with moms able to see the other puppies, and no problems. I would not have known this is a HUGE no-no since I saw this with a reputable breeder.

These are animals, I liked the response "Crap happens". Is is nice or pretty? No! It was an unfortunately accident...not the first and certainly not the last time it will happen.

Instead of making the poster feel like crap, answer the question and be done with it.

We were not new at breeding and the other bitch never made a sound nor did the pups. It is instict. The other bitch was lower in the "pack". It will never happen again. We have taken precautions to that effect.But as it has been stated they are animals.
They say if you breed long enough you will see just about everything. Accidents happen. It's not the dogs fault....its your fault. But learn from your mistakes and go on.

Maternal instinct is triggered by hormones. The endocrine system is not fully understood, but when there is a hormonal imbalance or deficiency a female will not behave in a motherly fashion. Bitches in false pregnancies that cuddle toys, are not making an intellectual choice to act. Their hormones have told them they have delivered. It's a complex system and it's a miracle that things go right most of the time.

Pup killing is more common when the pups are premature but can happen with full term litters. The Dam's chemistry is not ready for delivery. She doesn't know these are her pups because her chemistry has not told her that. Had the bitch in this thread been in a different room she would have likely killed some of her own.

Arguing that genetic temperament would make a bitch more or less likely to kill a pup isn't valid. Any bitch with a chemical imbalance is capable of killing a whelp. If the bitch is otherwise kind and non-aggressive it can be assumed there was a medical reason for her behavior.

Think a pup accidentally be laid on and a mother eating a pup are really miles apart. You do have to be very careful if you have two litters. I have never had any that close. But when I have a litter my other girls and boys come right in the room. I have friends who have girls that jump in the box and help the mother out. But two girls with the hormones going might be a different thing. You have every right to come on here and ask anything. We have all had things happen. And if anyone says they haven't. You just wait. Your time is coming. And it is very sad this happened.

what are you talking about? I dont have a litter of puppies right now and I did NOT lie. Learn how to read! I don't know how you got so confused. I have a few bitches but I have only bred one of them. In the future I might have two litters at once so I simply asked because I have never heard of such a thing ( being new to breeding and only have 3 litters total in my life time) I do not work so I have plenty of time for puppies and my dogs. I don't know how these threads get so far out of hand, people put in their own information that they just make up in their minds I guess.

Quote: "It is very serious problem when a a owner of a dog or bitch is in the wrong hands of a novice, yes novice( otherwise this would of never happened)."

Here's another seasoned breeder I won't be wanting pups or advice from. I believe your dogs are in the wrong hands.

QUOTE: >>Gosh Diane Welle had a great article in the quarterly I think some years ago, complete with photos of two of her bitches raising a litter together. Diane if you are out there- pipe in.<<

Judy, indeed I did, however, it wasn't two of my bitches, it was one of my bitches, and an outside bitch. They had never met before the borrowed bitch came in to save the day:
Read the article here

Here is my $0.02 worth on the topic. Yes, all dogs are canines, but Labradors are Labradors. While I know my Labradors are dogs, I expect them to act like Labradors. That doesn't mean they're evil when they act like a dog, but when they do something that alarms me, I have to ask myself if I believe that behavior is something I will live with in my Labradors. For instance, I had a puppy in a litter years ago, show up with a puncture wound on its face. It sure looked like a tooth mark, but I gave mom the benefit of the doubt, and the puppy healed fine. In the next litter that bitch had, I saw the incident that resulted in a puppy from that litter being bit in the face by mother, in a "leave me the hell alone" manner. His injury was worse than the first, resulting in two punctures and a lot of facial swelling. For *ME*, that was too much, and Mom was removed from the litter post haste and spayed. I do not expect, nor will I tolerate a Labrador biting its young. Yes, it may be normal canine behavior, but in my mind, it is not normal Labrador behavior, and a puppy is not a far leap from a child. If a bitch will bite a puppy, I can't trust her with a child. Again, that's ME. If someone else feels differently, I have no right to judge them for it.

I am pleased that my bitches will take orphans, and help another bitch who needs a hand. I do not tolerate grumbling between them, and I guess they know that. Sure, I've had a brand new mother give the evil eye to another dog the first few days after giving birth, but even though I know they're being a good mother by protecting their babies, I tell them off, and they understand I don't permit it. I do understand that just because I don't permit it, doesn't mean something nasty could happen, so I am *very* careful and observant.

I think people miss very subtle clues that their dogs give off, and when you don't understand canine body language, you can miss a lot. A subtle muscle ripple is a very loud message to a dog. My guess, is that the two bitches in question were giving the owners all the clues that something bad may happen, and the owner may have simply missed it. We all have lessons to learn, and sometimes those lessons are hard. Laying blame doesn't help anyone, and isn't going to protect the remaining puppies. Right now, the most important job the breeder has ahead of them, is to protect the remaining puppies. This means not trusting *either* bitch (because sometimes it is the innocent looking one that is provoking a problem), keep them separate, and be sure the puppies are in a safe environment until they go home. There will be lots of time after they go home to take a harder look at the bitches, and make decisions. Only the breeder can make the final decision, and hopefully, they will come away having learned a lesson that will protect future puppies.

There are a lot of what I call "overnight experts", and "born again fanciers" on the list. I can identify them by two words they often utter... "I'd never..". I believe those who think they have all the answers, find out later that they didn't. It's all a part of learning and growing. I thought I knew it all when I was starting out. I found out real fast that I knew nothing. The longer I'm in this, the more I know I have to learn.

When I have all the answers, I'll let you know ( ... I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you). Just when I think I have seen it all, I see something new. Until then, all I can do is what is right for me, and what was right for me yesterday, may not be right for me tomorrow. I just do my best, and pray I'm right.

Dian

Diane,

The article literally brought tears to my eyes. What a wonderful story of two awesome Moms.

Thanks for sharing.
~Karlene

Oh, a p.p.s to the story.... Wish (one of the puppies in that story) is now 13 1/2 years old. As I type this, she is sleeping on her pillow next to the fireplace. We now have her great-great grandchildren. It's amazing how much these dogs touch our lives.

Dian

Ahmm wrote:
"It is very serious problem when a a owner of a dog or bitch is in the wrong hands of a novice, yes novice( otherwise this would of never happened)"

I have to write in reply to this to Ahmm....where do you get off making such an accusation??

You cannot say with fact that it would never have happened if not in the hands of novice. I for one , am sick of this "newbie" crap that is layed to blame when something goes wrong. I highly doubt the "newbies" introduced PRA, ED, HD,Epilepsy etc into the breed...and no- i do not think the long time breeders did either. S*** happens to the those that are new, and just the same to those that are not. Even those "OLD" breeders out there that have >20+ years in breeding will say they learn something new all the time.
I happen to know of a very old breeder that has had so much crap happen in the last 2 years of their breeding program- and of another fairly new breeder who has had knowledge and research pan out for them each time. It happens to the best and the worst of breeders....so get off the high horse -
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH of blaming "newbies"!
My email is listed- please feel free to write me privately.

When i read the post initially- not once did the thought of a 'newbie' cross my mind- why is it that if falls to blame so quick to the likes of you?

Very cool story, Diane. It is nice to see someone turning a mean thread into something nice.

Diane, what a wonderful heart warming story.

Many tears here as well.