Ok. so in the spirit of Satin Balls and my lab liking them, I think maybe I should try a RAW diet. Any good books out there for a newbie to RAW

Remember that you HAVE to feed bones - raw turkey or chicken necks are a staple in raw diets that my friends feed. There is a book "RAW Meaty Bones" or something like that. I urge you not to start without doing your research (not that you weren't), but many dogs have become ill from owners doing RAW without regard to the nutritional needs of their dogs and only feeding ground beef, or chicken breast w/o bones, no veggies, etc. Good luck on your endeavor.

honestly, when I did raw for my guys...it was harder to keep weight on them than good quality kibble. We still do raw treats here & there but we could not keep weight on with the RAW

Give Your Dog a Bone by Ian Billinghurst is a great book.

Tom Landsdorf's stuff is good as is his website http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

Another good site

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

Good article
http://www.drkarenbecker.com/nav_sets_04/set04.htm

And there is a Labrador raw feeder's Yahoo group.

It would be tough to look at my chubby crew and say that raw feeding makes it tough to keep weight on.

If you're feeding the correct amount for the dog you can keep it at the weight you want ... hopefully the right weight for the dog.

As for good books. I like Kymythy Schultze's "Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats. The Ultimate Diet"

http://home.earthlink.net/~affenbar/

Be forewarned that when initially switching to raw, your dog will lose some weight due to the change. It will come back though once the dog is adjusted to the food. My 3-year-old male lost a bunch of weight initially and he was never heavy to begin with. But it came back after about a month.

This site is a wealth of information.
http://www.rawdogranch.com/

The books that I would recommend are Raw Dog Food by Carina Beth Macdonald, Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schultze, Work Wonders: Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale and Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale. Good luck!

Switching to Raw - Susan Johnson

The BARF Diet - Dr. Ian Billinghurst (his most recent and easiest to comprehend)

(the original and first) - Give Your Dog a Bone - Dr. Ian Billinghurst

Grow Your Pups With Bones (I liked this one the best) by Dr. Ian Billinghurst

And as someone else pointed out - do your research and homework before you start out with this endeavor. I have changed many things over the 9 years I have fed raw, including incorporating some grains back into the diet. For my newer dogs, I didn't see the muscling I wanted. For some breeds, and for individuals within your own breed, this may be different.

Try looking up Salmonella!

Try looking up the physiology and pH of a carnivore's gut.
Understand before you speak.

Here is a good article on Salmonella and feeding kibble vs raw.

http://www.mountaindogfood.com/HealthCare/Salmonella.pdf

Breeder, how many raw fed dogs do you know that have ever suffered from Salmonella poisoning? Dogs' digestive systems are vastly different from ours. Having said that, there are considerations to make before feeding raw. For example, a dog with a compromised immune system should not be fed a raw diet. It's about researching before doing. I wouldn't advise anyone to just start feeding raw before educating themselves extensively. And anyone worried about Salmonella poisoning in a perfectly healthy dog is, sadly, not very well educated on the subject.

None of my dogs lost weight when I switched to raw. You just have to feed enough and you have to shop around for deals and to ensure you get plenty of variety in your dogs diet.
My dogs have never looked better, been healthier, or lived better.
Join a good support group for advice like LabradorRawFeeding on Yahoo.
Good luck.

I never had trouble keeping weight on with raw.
I only have trouble having the space right now for 5 dogs-worth of food and no dedicated freezer.
Mine all still get raw knuckle bones and marrow bones and my older gal gets a chicken back and livers once a week for a treat.
I would say that raw is great, as long as you find a really good raw mentor or group to help guide you as you set up your meal plans. Here in Florida there is a raw feeding co-op run by a very knowledgeable lady who I am sure many of you know:)
Its a tough thing to do as you will find many who will discourage or disapprove and you yourself may have doubts from time to time as I have, especially if you do ever have any GI or tummy issues, so I would say it is not something to just jump right into without really knowing what you are in for. That said, boy does my skin sensitive gal do well on it.

Annie

Be warned that most vets will tell you that you are killing your dogs and give you a lecture.
You have to be committed!

Here is another book that was not mentioned and is worth the read.

http://www.switchingtoraw.com/intro.html

another poster suggested the Yahoo groups - there are a couple that I know of but visit very rarely. Rawfeeding and Rawbreeder

best,

Feeding RAW exclusively for 7 years, and the only thing I can say to those that tried it and didn't see results overnight is that Rome wasn't built in a day and that the damage that was done over several generations of feeding commerical kibble doesn't get "fixed" overnight. But stick to it long enough and you will be amazed beyond belief. So don't bother if you're looking for a quick fix.

What would be the closet match in dry food to raw?

I just could not stomach feeding raw.

There are several dehydrated foods out there but be prepared to spend big bucks on them.
There are also several companies that sell raw dog food such as BRAVO etc.
I know the raw group here does bulk buys from bravo.
I know that it may seem yukky at first when you feed raw, but when you see how much the dogs love it, its hard not to become enthusiastic about it.
Especially the meaty bones...tons of enjoyment as well as food:)
If you are getting good quality meat and fish, there should be no smelly gross stuff. just human grade raw meat.
Mine love a whole raw mackerel or mullet...in the backyard of course!
Annie

how many raw fed dogs do you know that have ever suffered from Salmonella poisoning?

Salmonella and e-coli and other food-borne bugs affect people too. You have to be very sure to keep kitchen, utensils, food processors etc. scrupulously clean to avoid food poisoning yourself (or your family).

When I cannot feed raw I feed Evo's red meat formula. Good results but not as good as raw.

Anytime you handle any kind of meat you must make sure you wash your hands, etc. All though I don't worry as much as some cause I also work to build up my own immune system.

I have fed raw for over 8 years. No salmonella in dogs or people, super coats, clean teeth, sparkling eyes, good energy, Puppies thrieve on it as well as my adult dogs and hardly any vet visits. When I do go to my vet, he comments on how healthy my dogs are and fully supports the diet. Before I started feeding raw, I read Give your Dog a Bone and The Ultimate Diet. I became fully committed and never went back to commercial dog food. There are now packaged raw food such as Granddads and Prairie among others. I feed from scratch since I feed multiple dogs. Evo seems like a good substitute for raw but not as good, in my opinion. Again, feeding raw and natural is not for everyone.

I agree that feeding Evo isn't as good but when I have been on the road for extended periods and I am in areas I don't know about the quality of the meat I'm getting I do opt for that rather than trying to find a retailer of frozen. When we go on vacation at a condo we're taking so much for us that I don't have room for the raw stuff. That's when I feed Evo. May be twice a year for a week or two.

Now that we have fed raw we cannot imagine not. Won't go back, that is for sure. Espcially since more breeders are even raising puppies on raw I won't have a problem putting a puppy on raw.

Dogs on raw with no carbs look TERRIBLE. Dogs are not wolves. They may have evolved from wolves, but they became domestic from thousands of years of eating scraps and COOKED food from people. Most raw fed dogs don't like raw food and are essentially forced fed. Try cooking the same food and offer both at once, see which they prefer. Humans used to eat raw food too, why don't you eat it? I feel sorry for the pups.

No need to pity my pups. They love raw and they get not only meat but cooked veggies and a small amount of oatmeal. Meat takes up about 70-80% of the meal with bones included in the meat. If I were to put kibble down along side of a raw meal, no hesitation, they go for the raw. No force fed dogs here. They love it and are super healthy and hardy. Eight years of this and happy and healthy dogs and pups. This is not an argument but a way of life for my dogs. Each to their own, so, again, pity is wasted on my guys.

"Humans used to eat raw food too, why don't you eat it?"

I do eat raw foods as much as possible because there is abundant research that shows cooking denatures food and not only makes it carcinogenic, but decreases bioavailability of many amino acids and other nutrients.

"I do eat raw foods as much as possible because there is abundant research that shows cooking denatures food and not only makes it carcinogenic, but decreases bioavailability of many amino acids and other nutrients"

How about some raw liver?....or chicken?.....or pork?

Why cook the veggies? Raw is better, right? Don't put a bowl of kibble next to your raw, offer raw and along side the raw put food identical to the raw, only cooked.

My Lab has no carbs (or very little once in a while) and he looks terrific! Not terrible! I have had judges remark about how tone he is. He does eat raw vegies and tripe for a meal a day. Vets have said how wonderful he looks and how healthy he is. Most people are amazed when I say I feed only raw.

My traditional vet has also told me he has no problem with people who want to feed their dogs raw. He said that he has found that they are much more careful about what their dogs eat and a dog left to their own means will eat dead, decaying animals. Actually his term was roadkill!

I eat steak tar tar and sushi - both are raw. In other countries other raw meats are considered delicacy. People do eat raw meats all around the world and survive. Just because you choose not to does not make it so for everyone else.

As to feeding dogs raw. Well, there are very few dogs who would turn their nose up at raw food. They sure love chowing down on any dead animals they find my yard! lol. I don't feed raw, only because it's more time consuming and I'm lazy. However, my cat eats raw and I promise he will starve himself before he would eat dry cat food.

Each of us has our own opinion as to what is appropriate for our dogs to eat. Life sure would be dull around here if we all agreed all the time.

Again, silly to argue about feeding. People do what they feel is best and watch for results. Cooking the food defeats the issue. By cooking the meat, you deplete the natural enzymes which is one reason to feed raw. Wild dogs or wolves eat the stomach contents which have partial digested fruits/greens, etc so therefore that is why we cook or simi cook the veggies. They are easily digested. I think someone needs to read up on this as most of us have done that feed natural. And, my guys would rather have raw anytime than anything else. I encourage people to read up on issues or at least take an effort to learn more if interested. Go look at my guys on my site and see wonderful healthy dogs. Most are second and third generation of natural fed dogs.

No offense.. I just like my steak med. rare. MY dog as well. hehe, nothing raw at this house. I been feeding both the kids and dogs for 25 years just the norm dog food/home cooked meals.
A healthy diet is just that. Every dog/ human are to be fed different then the other child/litter mate. It would make my life as well as others if it was that simple as a raw diet.JMO. moderation is my new tool.

Go look at my guys on my site and see wonderful healthy dogs. Most are second and third generation of natural fed dogs.


Since I feed raw, I always enjoy looking at sites of breeders who do as well. What is your site?

Cindy, got your site! Actually I had looked at it before!

If you saw the frenzy at my house whenever there is raw food available you wouldn't say that. you have obviously never been around raw fed dogs!

As for the weight,muscle,look of the dogs on raw? Goodness mine looked good.
My gal with weight "issues" firmed up and my others gained muscle and an incredible shine.
While I feed mainly kibble right now, I am always comparing every food to the results I got with raw and trying to emulate them.

My last litter of pups were a riot when I let them all share a couple chicken backs. At 6 weeks old these pups were beside themselves trying to get at it. Little satisfied growly noises as they chomped down.

Cooking veggies has no real purpose, but some may feel it helps break down the cell walls so they can be more easily digested, although it really does take the nutrition way down.

Also...My absolute fave foods in the world ( besides pizza) are sushi and a nice rare steak:)

"Cooking veggies has no real purpose, but some may feel it helps break down the cell walls so they can be more easily digested, although it really does take the nutrition way down."

That is true in omnivores but not in carnivores. Dogs do not have the digestive enzymes to break down the cell walls of vegetables and cooking or mulching must be done for them to be able to assimilate the nurients.

I have had steak tar tar, sushi and I like my steaks med. rare but I wouldn't eat just that every day. People do eat raw meats all around the world and survive but I guarantee not without problems and it does not contribute to a long life. I have read plenty on websites promoting raw, raw forums and medical articles. I decided it's not worth the risk or the mess for me.

None of my dogs have ever eaten any roadkill or dead animal that they've found. They would roll on a dead animal or surprise me with it at the back door, but they would not eat it. I witnessed my young girl catch a mouse and kill it while playing with it but when I left her to decide if she wanted to eat it, she would not, she just brings it back to give to me.

The poster who feeds raw without carbs likes that look, but I do not. Maybe in a different breed. Did the judge that made the remark about "how tone he is" place your dog? Dogs need some carbs to be healthy whether or not you like the way it looks on them. Vets do not tell owners of new puppies that they should raise their dogs on raw because this is the best thing to do, in fact they try to advise against it but may succumb to the client. Even some holistic vets don't recommend a raw diet unless there is a underlying medical reason to do so. Sadly, most raw feeders don't feed correctly.

As far as feeding a puppy raw, most puppies will eat a sock if allowed to do so. If a dog won't eat a raw meal I would say there is a reason behind it. If my dog won't eat something, I wouldn't eat it either. NO scientific data is available for the benefits of raw at this time and until there is I will continue to feed a high protein low carb kibble.

I don't think all dogs like raw, I don't feed raw but I don't push or insist that people feed kibble. To each their own. For whatever primordial reason, most people feeding raw are more wrapped up in the concept than the dogs eating it. They love to talk about it and to turn peoples stomachs with stories of raw feedings.

Yes my dog is Lab and that judge did place him.

I have a friend whose Aussie loves to help dress the deer that they get in hunting. Loves to eat what she can get. True of when they clean fish, too--she'll steal them if she can. Another friend of mine's mini-doxie at a dead, flat decayed chipmunk when they were out walking. They're dogs.

Unfortunately this has turned into a raw feeding vs not raw feeding. The orginal post was from someone interested in feeding raw. No one can convince anyone anything else. So, if someone is interested in feeding raw, why would someone bother to post all their ideas against it. They obviously have thought about it and done some research to ask about it. It's like people who are not into the holistic aspect of things insisting on posting and condemning hoslistic approach. Why go there if you are not interested other than you want to stir things up. I don't post in areas that are not of interest to me or I don't agree with, so why do so many feel they have to when it comes to the raw issue? Just let it be a good informative thread for those interested in raw. Get very tired of all the negativity. Don't belittle anyone for feeding high carb dog foods (that have been proven to feed cancer). So why go there?

I posted because I feel there are risks in feeding raw that could make one regretful. It hasn't been determined that there are real benefits from feeding that way. I'm not against all raw feeding or holistic. Supplementation and some diets are way overdone. These things don't fix or prevent everything as touted and the results are often subjective. Raw feeding is not for all dogs and I'm just sticking up for those dogs. Any time something isn't mainstream it's going to cause controversy and the opinion in disagreement of yours is going to want to be heard.

I do agree that it is not for every dog and every person. Any raw feeder will tell you that too. Most of the balanced raw feeders will agree but still challenge the traditional thought that most of us grew up with. It also is not for someone to just try--it takes time, research and mentoring. I have been blessed with a couple of great mentors that help me develop balanced diets. But there are those out there who do it without thinking about balance. Some dogs have no business being put on raw, but I do believe in the long run the benefits will be shown. Actually know a couple of breeders who have multiple generations of raw fed Labs and will only sell to a buyer who agrees to keep feeding raw. There are more out there than I ever dreamed there were. Hats off to them.

Thank you . I did not want this to turn into a political debate, I am wanting to try Raw and I wanted to be educated about it. I will be happy to share that my boy at two chicken wings and a pound of breast today so thats a start! He doesn't seem to like red meat so it might be hard to balance, but hey like you have all said it is a work in progress and you do not learn to feed raw overnight. Thank you all for your thought

If he doesn't like red meat you might want to try something like rabbit, goat or mutton. Just a thought. Best of success to you!