A breeder friend was asking about stud dogs. She asked if I knew anything about them. I did know somethings about a few, but not all. I told her that if there are any questions about health issues, or anything, it is always best to go right to the stud owner, and ask outright. It has frequently been said on this forum, and others, to not listen to idle gossip, and go right to the source. Well, she did like I said, and was not told by the stud dog owner of a health problem (TVD) that I know for a fact came up in 2 different litters. She even specifically asked about that. Now I feel put on the spot. I know about the problem, the stud dog owner did not fess up about it, and this breeder, who is not someone I know real well, is going to go ahead and use him. He is a gorgeous boy, and has produced very pretty pups. Do I keep my mouth shut? I am really stuck on what to do. I know that if the situation were in reverse, I would want to be told. But, I also do not want to bad mouth an up and coming stud dog, and be labeled a trouble maker. What would you recommend I do?

For the Breed and the future of the breed.

You have to tell in this forum the name of the owner and the name of the dog.

A lot of people might end up with this non proffesional breeder.

You are saving the breed.

Scary, that.

I suggest you go to the breeder, tell her that you know about the TVD, tell her that you know she didn't tell the person who just specifically asked about it and give her the opportunity to share the info. If she chooses not to, then you should tell the person who's considering using the dog.

You should tell the world!

How ridiculous! Why bad mouth a dog, when he is only PART of the equation? Isn't it possible that the bitches that were used with him were just a bad combo - kind of like using two OptiGen B's together? You can't blame only the stud - and you CERTAINLY can't do it on a PUBLIC FORUM!

Shame on you!!

Oh, and by the way, For the breed, misspellings like 'non proffesional' make YOU look unprofessional, too!

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Replying to:

For the Breed and the future of the breed.

You have to tell in this forum the name of the owner and the name of the dog.

A lot of people might end up with this non proffesional breeder.

You are saving the breed.

I am just trying to find out how to handle this. No names will be mentioned. I am hoping from some input from stud dog owners. I do not have one, so have not had to deal with these types of issues.

I too would go to the stud dog owner and ask out right about the TVD. A poodle breeder friend of mine asked a breeder about a specific problem that a few dogs were known to have in her current litter's pedigree. Her handler actually pointed out the "potential" problem. The breeder has not returned her emails in over 2 weeks! I told her to steer clear of this litter.

The problem I have with that is that I am not interested in this boy. So I will probably be told to MYOB. I don't feel I should police this stud owner, especially when I am not looking to use her boy. I just feel weird knowing something, and not telling the breeder who wants to use him. I think I did my part by telling her to talk directly with the stud owner. It's just that I know she omitted information. I feel like I am stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

Tell her to talk to the people who own the bitches with the affected litters.

It takes two dogs to produce this as it is recessive. If it were a dominant issue, we'd have more reports of it. Most bitch owners do not test their girls for TVD, but everyone wants the stud dogs checked out.
It is a matter of how genes pair up.
I am a stud dog owner & it gets old when people put the entire blame on the male.

I believe you can only test a dog to see if it affected. I don't think there is a test for a carrier. Maybe I am wrong. I don't think I am putting all the blame on the stud dog. I did not want to imply that. Also, that was not the point. I think you can agree that half the blame can be put on the dog. Also, this boy does have a heart clearance, so he is not affected. And one of the bitches had a heart clearance also.

BREEDER

What would we recommend you do???

You have already started to gossip and
bad mouth someone's lovely dog, the owner
and the kennel in which it came.

I hope this person reads this forum and
knows exactly who you are!

I would recommend...Get a Life

wish her well and walk away. You have done what you feel you had to do.

No names have been mentioned. Not even a country has been mentioned. The only info was a male labrador. If the owner reads this and recognizes them self then perhaps that is a good thing. Just for curiosity's sake how would you handle this situation if you were in my place? I do not wish to stir up trouble. I just needed help with this issue. I bet I am not the only one that has had an experience like this. If you knew what I knew would you just walk away? I am asking you seriously what would you do?

I would suggest that she talk to a couple of breeders that have used the dog. Mention those names to her and tell her there might be something there to check. I would let her know that you might have heard about it - maybe it's a rumor - she should check it out.

I would hate to use a last breeding on an older bitch - only to find out that I could be doubling on a health issue.

For the Breed:

Please read the red print at the top of the forum!

i agree w/ lab breeder. Tell her she should call a couple breeders who have bred to this dog. Let her ask the questions and find out what she needs to know.

I would tell her how you feel. I would tell her that you were hoping that the stud dog owner would tell her of the problems but since she/he did not you have a little more information. I would explain that it is not your normal practice to talk about others dogs but you could not live with yourself if she bred to him and then the litter had problems. I would give her the names of the breeders that had problems and let her talk to them. She could look at pedigrees and see if there are any common dogs. She can then make a better informed decision.

Someone said to takes two for TVD. My understanding on TVD is that it can take only one dog/bitch to pass it on. I read that it is a dominant trait with incomplete penetrance. So until the research on TVD is complete and we have a blood test to tell us if a dog is a carrier, we need to band together and be HONEST about problems that creep up in lines.

You may not know exactly if it came from the bitch or the dog in a litter. But the more information you have the better you off you are when making a final decision on who to breed and who to breed too.

NO, I am not stud dog bashing. I have both bitches and stud dogs and in the case above the TVD might have come from the bitch line, who knows. That is why she needs to talk to the bitch owners, so she can do more research. I just feel that if we TRUELY love this breed than we need to be more HONEST about problems. We need to publish ALL OFA results and be HONSET about other problems that might show up in a litter.

JMHO

I would not contradict what the stud dog owner has told your friend. However that does not mean YOU cannot share WHAT YOU KNOW about the two litters where the problem came to light. You may suggest to your friend that when that particular stud dog was brought together with bitches of certain lines, issues did develop. You can then suggest to your friend that she check her girl's pedigree against the bitches where the combination produced the problem.

That way you have put your friend on notice of the possibility of a problem ( based on bringing together two lines that obviously should not be brought together ), and it is then UP TO HER to take a really close look at the prospective matchup and determine if she wants to take the chance.

At that point you have done everything possible to give a friend good advice, have not spread gossip, and should have a clear conscience. Works for me!

I wanted to use this one stud dog but I had heard some consistant rumors about him. I called the breeder of this dog up and asked her point blank what I had heard. I didn't mention who I heard it from either. The stud dog owner suggested that I contact other bitch owners who used this boy in question. I got busy and contacted a few different breeders who used this boy and one of them lived with the dog, studding him out for a year.

I was told by the caretaker of this dog that this dog's temperament toward other dogs was "Not nice" and the other bitch owners who kept his puppies from their own litters turned out to be aggressive towards other dogs so much so that the one bitch owner got rid (retired) of her adult dogs out of those litters sired by this mean stud dog.

In this case, the rumors of this dog were solidified in my mind and I decided to not use this boy. If anybody else were to ask me about this dog, I tell them to go to his owner and ask for yourself. Sometimes you have to do the leg work yourself when it comes to getting to the truth of rumors. Unfortunately when you start asking around about a certain stud dog or bitch, breeders get offended then before you know it, you are labled a trouble maker.

TVD to my knowledge can be passed on by one parent. Obviously, either the sire or dam is a carrier or could even have a mild case of it and the breeder doesn't know if they didn't do a doppler test.

If I had the knowledge of a sire and dam producing TVD, I would not pussy foot around with this information. The stud dog owner as well as the owner of the bitch of this litter needs to get their dogs heart checked out if they have not done so then they need to be cautious about future breedings and really get to the bottom of the TVD. It's not fun losing a family pet to heart disease at such a young age so I hope breeders start to take this disease more seriously.

The most recent research that we are aware of was conducted by Dr. Kathy Wright and her findings support the belief that TVD is a dominant with incomplete penetrance. Either of the parents can be the carrier of the gene that results in TVD. (The other parent could be clear and never produce TVD unless mated with a carrier.) We also understand that a dog can be cleared by color doppler and hence not be affected, but still carry the gene to produce TVD.

As already advised previously you need to review the pedigrees of the parents where known TVD puppies were produced to look for commonalities within the pedigree of your friend's girl.

We encourage everyone to support the current fund raising efforts to allow more TVD research that hopefully will result in the identification of a gene marker test.

BREEDER, I was once in your friend's shoes but had been warned by a mentor to ask about TVD when a certain dog was in a pedigree, so I did ask the stud's owner/breeder. I, also, did not receive the information from the owner/breeder so contacted other bitch owners who had used the stud. One of the bitch owners forwarded my email request to the owner/ breeder who did, indeed, label me as a trouble maker and gave me a scathing dress down for emailing bitch owners to acquire information on their stud. I did not use the stud because TVD had indeed been produced in 2 of his litters. This was years ago before the mode of inheritance was determined for TVD. But a lesson learned for me - if I don't get the information from the owner/breeder of a stud I just don't use their stud. From then on, I have not contacted others who have used a particular stud I was interested in using. This was just my experience and it could be that this stud dog owner/breeder was not a nice person, I don't really know as I don't know them well; but it was enough for me not to do it again.

I posted this to another thread, but it merits a second look.

"This is a truly devastating gray area of our breed that warrants immediate attention. Yes, ECD is a good thing when used in a diagnostic capacity. But at the end of the day it isn’t the end all be all it’s made out to be. If you have the unfortunate luck of owning an affected dog, TVD has quite CLEARLY been in the line stewing for some time. And going one step further, chances are also pretty darn good that the majority of affected offspring come from parents who have the most lovely and well functioning tricuspid valves ever seen by highly qualified cardiologists.

So, the answer is quite simple. We need to band together, as dedicated breeders, in getting AS MANY samples sent in for the current research being conducted to find the genetic marker that causes TVD. We already know that it is dominant trait with incomplete penetrance. In its very essence, it is a generational disaster lurking in virtually every pedigree.....just waiting to happen.

Having gone through an experience with TVD myself, and from what I thought was a very clean line; it brings to light the cold hard facts. As hard as we try, as much as we know, with clearances for everything that can be cleared, and as prepared as we *think* we are- Mother Nature and genetics will always reign supreme. A blood test to rule out TVD is the only way we will truly be able to diagnose with complete confidence."

This is all the HONEST truth. It does take TWO to tango and the truly sad part is that BOTH of the parents from my TVD litter had excellent hearts; both cleared by ECD. My girl had also had two litters prior (from different studs)with no problems. TVD is in virtually every pedigree and can be pulling from five generations or more back. I'm sure some of us have done a coat color test and been shocked to find that we have a BYC when the last chocolate was four or more generations back. ALL it takes is the right combination from both the sire and dam to create either a dream or a disaster.

Now here’s answering the question about how to deal with this situation. You have already done your part. All you can do is educate others about your experiences and hope like heck that they listen. The other almost unfair fact in this is that even though you had affected pups, this individual could have NO actual occurrences of TVD.....just more carriers waiting to sabotage future generations My advice is educate, take notes, use discretion, and try to lead as many stubborn horses to the water as you can. Good luck.

But then there are still those breeders who wear rose coloured glasses....

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Replying to:

I wanted to use this one stud dog but I had heard some consistant rumors about him. I called the breeder of this dog up and asked her point blank what I had heard. I didn't mention who I heard it from either. The stud dog owner suggested that I contact other bitch owners who used this boy in question. I got busy and contacted a few different breeders who used this boy and one of them lived with the dog, studding him out for a year.

I was told by the caretaker of this dog that this dog's temperament toward other dogs was "Not nice" and the other bitch owners who kept his puppies from their own litters turned out to be aggressive towards other dogs so much so that the one bitch owner got rid (retired) of her adult dogs out of those litters sired by this mean stud dog.

In this case, the rumors of this dog were solidified in my mind and I decided to not use this boy. If anybody else were to ask me about this dog, I tell them to go to his owner and ask for yourself. Sometimes you have to do the leg work yourself when it comes to getting to the truth of rumors. Unfortunately when you start asking around about a certain stud dog or bitch, breeders get offended then before you know it, you are labled a trouble maker.

TVD to my knowledge can be passed on by one parent. Obviously, either the sire or dam is a carrier or could even have a mild case of it and the breeder doesn't know if they didn't do a doppler test.

If I had the knowledge of a sire and dam producing TVD, I would not pussy foot around with this information. The stud dog owner as well as the owner of the bitch of this litter needs to get their dogs heart checked out if they have not done so then they need to be cautious about future breedings and really get to the bottom of the TVD. It's not fun losing a family pet to heart disease at such a young age so I hope breeders start to take this disease more seriously.

As a newer person who does not know all the backgrounds of many of our more prominent pedigrees nearly as well as some who have been around a while, I have to say I am at the mercy of my breeder friends and what info they choose to share with me.

I make that point to them all whenever I talk to them and thank them for their candor and assure them I will do no gossiping or spreading of any of the information I may get as it is not my place and I am just grateful to get some useful information that may help me avoid some issues here and there.

I only ask opinions from those who I know would tell me ALL they know of a dog...facts only of course, not interested in the rumor mill. Its really a trust issue and trouble need not be stirred up if you do things right, and it does sound like the OP was trying to do what was right.

I would certainly tell your friend what you KNOW to be true, and I would emphasize the things you do not know. Since there is such a stigma with some of the genetic issues, you have to wonder just what of what you hear is real and what is not when it has often been passed through so many. Some like to do harm to others reputations as well, so you really do owe it to any stud owner to talk with them about anything you think you know unless it is your own personal experience.

To me, the time for truth was before she talked with the stud owner so that she could just ask directly. No need to play any games.
I know that is easier said than done, but it would be the right thing to do.
I really don't see it being so bad to say something along the lines of.." I really admire your boy and would love to hear your thoughts on my using him on "X" but wanted to ask about a couple litters I heard had some health issues."

We have all heard over and over again that NO clean lines exist. I would think any seasoned stud owner knows this full well and would not be offended that a person would rather ask about something they heard than take the info as fact. If you are not 100% sure of the info you have, that is another story and I would keep it to myself.

Good luck!
Annie

I really don't see the point in asking the stud owner about big issues like this. I do ask them to look at my bitch's pedigree and let me know if they think I may be doubling up on something that I am not aware of, and taht way they don't have to get into specifics if they don't want to. But if you ask point blank and get an all clear reply, is it true or is it not? How much further are you along really.

I rely heavily on my friends and the information I have accumulated to make decisions. I keep a file of things I have heard and systematically research it to separate the gossip from the truth. Sometimes the information may in fact be wrong but I try to stick to reliable resources. I feel it is much better to pass on a dog wrongly accused of producing TVD than to blindly rely on his owner's perception.

I am so greatful that I have a handful of friends who are very actively involved and have years of experience. That is where my most valuable and reliable information comes from. That is also why I am thrilled when one of them has a nice boy I can use as I know they will be up front with me and I am probably more familiar with the pedigree

The attacks at BREEDER are uncalled for. He or she asked for assistance with no dog named, instead some of you are attacking this breeder.

If you continue with this secrecy about everything the breed will go down further with multiple health issues.

A stud dog owner asks for the pedigree of the bitch for a reason. The bitch owner asks for the same, has a question and isn't entitled to a truthful answer? That's not right.

Both parties should be honest and if you don't like what a stud dog owner goes through then don't own a stud dog. It's part of it and no one said it was easy.

Breeder, I can't tell you what to do but these attacks are uncalled for. Do what you think is the right thing..

What happened to Honesty?

"What happened to Honesty?"

It was lost awhile ao. The almightly dollar aka greed takes over.

I just wanted to say this post is not from me. I posted the first My Opinion post.

The only posts that I saw that were not nice to the original OP, was in the beginning. I think she/he has gotten a lot of useful information on this topic and for the most part everyone has been very civil.

Again,
JMHO

What happened to honesty you ask? Lawyers! People these days are frightened to speak the truth just in case they get sued by breeders with secrets to protect. When it comes to inherited disorders in dogs it is best to say nothing when questioned in case it backfires on you.

Omerta applies - the breeders code of silence.
A good friend of mine was once approached by a breeder and was asked to (confidentially) appraise a pedigree. When my friend revealed to this person the serious inherited problems she had encountered with this pedigree (she had all the veterinary documentation to prove it) the breeder asking the"confidential questions" turned into a snake in the grass and informed various people who should never, ever have become involved. This was despite the fact that this "enquiring breeder" had made multiple slurs about some very famous stud dogs during the course of their conversations. My friend had the good grace never to repeat those slurs to the owners concerned.

End result was that this "snake in the grass" caused a lot of totally unnecessary bad feeling, hostilty, litigation threats etc when she should have had the decency to keep the information confided to her private.

A valuable lesson learned here - never share your experiences with anybody even though it may possibly prevent them from making a huge mistake. Who needs that sort of unpleasant nonsense in their life just from speaking the truth????

You could refer the breeder to the litters you know of who had problems and tell her to check with them about anything that may have "cropped up" or how happy they were with their litters?

Could it be a possibility that the stud dog owner doesn't know about the problems in these 2 litters?

If the stud is a beautiful dog and used a lot who's to say that the pups that ended up with TVD didn't come from the bitch's side? If the stud is cleared of it I would shut my mouth.
Aloha,
jackie

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Replying to:

A breeder friend was asking about stud dogs. She asked if I knew anything about them. I did know somethings about a few, but not all. I told her that if there are any questions about health issues, or anything, it is always best to go right to the stud owner, and ask outright. It has frequently been said on this forum, and others, to not listen to idle gossip, and go right to the source. Well, she did like I said, and was not told by the stud dog owner of a health problem (TVD) that I know for a fact came up in 2 different litters. She even specifically asked about that. Now I feel put on the spot. I know about the problem, the stud dog owner did not fess up about it, and this breeder, who is not someone I know real well, is going to go ahead and use him. He is a gorgeous boy, and has produced very pretty pups. Do I keep my mouth shut? I am really stuck on what to do. I know that if the situation were in reverse, I would want to be told. But, I also do not want to bad mouth an up and coming stud dog, and be labeled a trouble maker. What would you recommend I do?

also, realize that affected dogs can still clear the test if done only by ascultation and still get their OFA Cardiac Certificate. The flap/valve can malfunction so much as to never allow a murmur to be heard. If the test done on the dog is not a full color doppler Ultrasound, then it IS possible to still pass an affected dog! This was told to me by my cardiologist. Also, cleared dogs can be carriers, and yes it takes only one to produce an affected.

The stud dog owner has proven to be a liar. She was asked specifically about this condition and chose to lie. My father always said "if you lie then you will cheat and steal". In my opinion I would not deal with a liar and I would let my friends and family know if they were about to get into dealings with someone like that also. Enough excuses about this kind of a person for crying out loud! Maybe if enough people would stand up for what is right the world wouldn't be so screwed up.

I am really confused by this?
TVD mode is not known, so how would the stud dog owner know if the dog produced a problem or not?

If he is the sire of three litters with three different bitches that each have an affected puppy or two in the litter, then he is most likely the cause of the problem. I have experienced this first hand.

The person said two litters and did not mention number of puppies? Did I miss that post?

What does it matter? You are getting off track. You can bet if there were two litters that are known of with pups that have this condition, and it is public knowledge then I am sure that the litter owners have notfied the stud dog owner about it. That means the stud dog owner lied when asked this specific question.

JMO: I've noticed that your opinion is always nasty and you only post to cause trouble. OP had a legitimate question, no names were mentioned, no harm was done. I'm not interested in reading anything that JMO has to say anymore. Your credibility has been waning and now it's down the toilet. You're just mean. You have nothing to contribute here that would help anyone. JMO, get a life.

What a small minded person you are to say such a thing. Doesn't sound to me like the stud dog owner lied, as it has been said the problem could have come from just the bitch and if the dog is so nice that he is used a lot it's no wonder there has been problems with some of the puppies he's produced but remember it takes TWO to make those puppies not just one.
Aloha,
jackie

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Replying to:

The stud dog owner has proven to be a liar. She was asked specifically about this condition and chose to lie. My father always said "if you lie then you will cheat and steal". In my opinion I would not deal with a liar and I would let my friends and family know if they were about to get into dealings with someone like that also. Enough excuses about this kind of a person for crying out loud! Maybe if enough people would stand up for what is right the world wouldn't be so screwed up.

That is not necessarily true. If the stud dog is well used, he could have sired 25, 50, or over a 100 litters. "If" the question was put, "do you know of specific problems that HE produced", the answer has to be no. "If" he is a well used sire, two cases of TVD could be certainly from the bitch side as it does only take one to produce this condition. The other question that has never been put forth is a misdiagnoses. I have heard of situations where because of a murmur, it was assumed it was TVD when in fact it was another condition such as a PDA. Were the puppies taken to a certified cardiologist and accurately diagnosed. Unless you were the owner or breeder and have actually seen the consultation report, you are just going on a rumor.
The other situation could be that the stud dog owner was never notified. This could be for various reasons, one has already been mentioned that they don't want to be viewed as a trouble maker, they just feel that "stuff happens" and just go on, or they are like some people that like to talk to other people instead of going back to the source.
I personally think some folks are reading alot into the original post that really was a little sketchy on specific information and really the question was, should I pass on a rumor to another breeder who I really don't know that well about a specific dog. My answer would be no.

I would be very disappointed if a friend of mine withheld very important information about a stud choice i was considering.

My personal opinion - for integrity, i would emphasize the point that you have HEARD about issues with TVD and that you have no fact or proof and refer your friend to those having had the litters with any affected puppies.
It will be off your shoulders, and up to your friend to properly research the lines before the breeding. I'd hate to be the friend that had info withheld only to end up with a litter with health issues that could have possibly been prevented if there is any truth to what you heard.

We are supposed to be protecting the puppies we bring into this world and give them the best possible start in life .

But i'll agree, a public forum is not the place to 'out with it', - go private with your friend and you will be looking out for your friend and those potential puppies.

Again, my personal and honest opinion.
If you say nothing, and there is any truth to it, and the outcome is not good- you will have that to live with knowing that it could have been prevented.

She clearly stated that the stud dog owner was asked about this specific condition.

I too would be very disappointed if a FRIEND did not give me this kind of information. My gosh, what are friends for.

Tina, I agree with you if the breeder was a close personal friend, I would handle it just as you suggested however in the original post it was said:

"and this breeder, who is not someone I know real well, is going to go ahead and use him"

I would re read Tom S. post, excellent information. I would like to add to it.Dont wait to hear if there is a problem. I have always learned more by Sitting ring side.It is a great place to learn and get the information.If we are always trying to improve our pedigrees, think about all the experience sitting ringside and history of pedigrees sitting next to you. The mentors have such valuable information in every aspect. Long time ago before the "internet" One could hardly wait to see or meet a dog. Unfortuantly we have lost the personal communication amonst friends/breeders. We now do depend on passing on information or attaining it legally( usually ends of in law suits). It has become a long phone chain. What a mess it can become. It can ruin a great dog.The more a dog is used the more you will see. How great this dog pedigree can teach us! We will get the bad, but look at all the good. JMO, You must study, learn your pedigree of your own dogs. You will then know what two pedigrees go well together and what not too.

this breeder is someone they know well enough to ask their opinion though?

Even still- because i am not close enough with someone- i would still give them the information i know that could prevent potential problems in a breeding. and again- emphasize that it was possibly hearsay giving the responsibility back to the other party to research before going ahead with it.

If anyone came to me,regardless of who, asking me about potential health issues on a stud choice- and i've heard of something creeping up- i would set that expectation that it was hearsay. The choice becomes theirs again and if they go ahead with it- their bed!