As a novice breeder, I have a question I hope some of you "seasoned" breeders can help me with. In all the training and books I have read on breeding labs, I have been told over and over that I must start with a quality bitch from a breeder who has already spent years and years of educating themselves in the breed, then breed that bitch selectively to a Champion stud dog that will contribute qualities to her that she may be lacking...all to try to improve the breed, and ultimately produce the best "type" possible, apply all aspects of AKC breed standard. Having given that general introduction, here is my question...
After interviewing almost a hundred, well respected lab breeders...here is what I find...none of them will sell a pup on full registration...at all...so here is my question:
1. If these breeders truly care about improving the breed, why would they turn away someone who would like to do what's RIGHT, and therefore force that person to (god forbid) go to another breeder who WILL sell on full registration, therefore knowingly NOT giving the best to the breed...perhaps the one selling on "full registration" is truly NOT producing what the seasoned breeder is...and the novice may not see the minute differences...in thier inexperience, of course...
2. Why do breed clubs turn away those wanting to be MENTORED??? Why, again, would you cause these people to "wander" and make mistakes over the years, when you could have contributed to an up and coming breeder (of course, all of you won't be here in 40 years)...who will pick up the torch??
3. Am I missing other things that are causing this trend that I should know? Of course, if I do ever produce the next Champion Labrador...why should I not sell any pups on full registration to ANYone whatsoever (I've heard that even breeders with over 20 years of experience, and a stellar show career can't even buy pups out of other breeders lines on full registration.)
4. Why do these same breeders think NOTHING of selling the novice breeder fresh chilled semen, if the bitch shows all clearances, but they never even see this bitch in person???? Maybe only pictures...its seems like a "double standard" to the outsider...

Please forgive me for my ignorance, but please hear my sincerity, and my search for understanding.
I hope many of you will be brave and candidand give me the thinking behind this...
Thanks so much ahead of time.
I know some of the breeders on this forum can be pretty brutal in their responses from what I have observed, so can you all answer me in a kind manner (???)...thank you so very much...
(I know I'll find someone candid out there, since it is ok to submit posts without anyone knowing who you are...that is nice...)
Respectfully submitted

Perhaps it sounds to me like you are somehow turning "off" these so called long time breeders?

Having been in this breed for 10 years, I do have to say, although in a few instances I have come across stone walls, I have not had a hard time at all finding good dogs from long time, well known breeders.

Perhaps you need to take a look at what you may be doing that all these breeders are running away from you?

Sounds to me like there is more to it.

I also think that most of us who have been in this game for a while have been burned by people who sound GREAT, promise to do ALL the right things and then do just the opposite.

So, that means we are gun shy. I only allow puppies/dogs off my property on limited or co-own. I have not sold a dog with full reg in years, unless the dog has already been neutered (a dog I kept that didn't work out).

MK

Actually, I am not just the only one who experienced this, but several others have...so having made that clear...there is something else....I guess I may not get the candid response I'm looking for if you may assume that several different people are ALL turning off these breeders in the same way...I don't think that is the case in this situation (only because I've heard the same feedback of the "stonewall" from over a dozen other novices from all different locales in the US.)
I guess I've been the only 'brave one" to actually throw the question out there...

Can anyone still answer why they will sell someone fresh chilled semen...regardless...
I've had clients that have been able to get semen from the BEST stud dogs...and these people would have turned ME off if they had requested a stud service with my dogs...LOL!

I'm hoping there are others out there who will enter into this discussion without assuming the "question asker" is turning breeders off.
Perhaps I won't get a straigh answer....I was really hoping for some insight, but I may just get the same "stonewall" in this forum I have feared...
Again, thanks ahead of time to anyone who will enter into discussion on this...

YES!!! Here comes some feedback...true and honest...keep it coming!!!

I would be GLAD to discuss this with you, since I asked the same questions back 40 years ago when I got started. I would eagerly send you an email with some suggestions and chat with you over time to give some pointers on how to deal with this issue. However, anonymity has its pitfalls - I won't discuss this at all with someone who refuses to take responsibility for his/her own public posts. That suggests you are not ready to take responsibility for your actions as a breeder either. Sorry.

Just because the answer is not the one you "wanted" to hear, doesn't mean it is incorrect and I can see by your response already that I indeed would not be selling you anything on full reg. either....

You seem to know it all already.

I would love to give you my email, but because of the viciousness I find in the forum sometimes and the judgement, I choose not to...I'm so sorry...I guess I just won't get answers.
I felt that you would appreciate the anonymity and feel free to be respond out of your honesty.
So sorry to trouble you...
I love the candidness that come from forums...it only HELPS the breed, I truly believe that...

thanks...The stonewall continues...I'm so grieved by this...

I have only been in breeding/showing for about 9 years but do have new people wanting to buy on full registration. I handle it the following way: I will sell a puppy on either a limited registration or co ownership (if they are going to show) once the dog is 2 years old, I require proof of clearances for eyes, hips and elbows as well as a personal inspection of the dog or photos. Once this is done I will sign off on the dog. I think that if we make this too hard for up and coming show/breeders we will only be hurting ourselves. But if we educate them we can hopefully give them the knowledge to do this with integrity.
I was very put off by several breeders when I first started in this passion. Fortunately for me I was able to meet some wonderful people who continue to mentor me everyday.
I think if we give good information and share our experiences most people will make the right decision for themselves.
As far as shipped semen, any breeder I have ever contacted for breeding has expected me to provide them with clearances and most often they want names of other breeders I have worked with.
I had a nice lady contact me to breed to my stud dog just last week. I went over my requirements (she hadn't done any testing) as well as got the pedigree for her dog. I will be contacting the breeder of the the stud dog since I know her and find out a little more about this litter before I give the OK for her to use my stud dog.

Just my .02

And the stonewall continues...

I again, challenge anyone to answer the question, not "dodge it".

anyone can answer my anonymously, just change your identity, don't post you email address...and answer candidly, and honestly...I know someone will, instead of responding viciously like two of you have already (which sadly, I predicted)...come on...lighten up...think of the breed, not protecting your own turf...
Can someone give some input...and stop dodging the question of why you sell semen to people, KNOWING they will sell pups on full registration?
Does this not sound like a "double standard" to anyone else out there??
Most people probably realize the double standard, perhaps this is why I hear the defensiveness?

Bravo, and thank YOU to the first person who has responded in a kind, honest fashion...
Yes, I feel you are doing a great thing there.

I have found just the opposite, many do not ask ENOUGH questions before sending out semen for a bitch. You are a rare specimen...someone I long to be like.
You, I feel, are one of the true "mentors' out there who are going about things correctly, not just guarding your turf, sounds like you care for the breed, and want to do the right thing, like me. We are lucky enough to have both had good mentors, I feel bad for the people who get "stonewalled".
If more people truly mentored and helped new breeders, we would not have the SAD state of negligent, out of control, terrible breeding, in this, the most popular breed in the US. All the more reason to replicate yourself...otherwise the "newbies" will just go "down the rung" so to speak, until someone will "teach' them, I compliment you on your willingness to care more for the breed, than for yourself.
Bless you.

Some unnamed person wrote:
"anyone can answer me anonymously, just change your identity, don't post you email address...and answer candidly, and honestly...I know someone will, instead of responding viciously like two of you have already (which sadly, I predicted)...come on...lighten up...think of the breed, not protecting your own turf..."

You see... that is the problem in a nutshell with me. I have no interest in dealing with people who are unwilling to be honest and candid openly. I appreciate that you do not want to hear this (several have already posted it), but you are the one behind the "stonewall" -taking potshots at others while not taking responsibility for your own actions and opinions. It says a lot about who YOU are - and I can see why you may have been rebuffed by established breeders even though you THOUGHT you had the right intentions. Well, the old saying about what road is paved with good intentions is often prophetic.

Your actions speak louder than your words. If you want to have a full disclosure discussion, enter it honestly with full disclosure yourself. Hiding YOUR identity and encouraging others to do the same does not lead to open discussion - it leads to sniping and deception. Heaven knows we don't need more of that!!!

Dear Novice,

First of all I just wanted to point out that Maureen posted her email address and invited YOU to email her privately to discuss your concerns.

I've been in Labs for more than 20 years ago after aquiring my first "pet" Labrador in 1982 as a teenager. I actually started showing him in 4H, then matches and a few AKC shows. It was then I started to realize that he was NOT show material, but being young and not having the internet, there were very few options for me. Thankfully a wonderful breeder happened to move to my area and her daughter and I were in the same 4H club. She taught me so much about Labs and had a huge library filled with Lab books. As I continued to go to shows, I met other breeders, some nice, some not so nice. I watched the dogs in the ring, made notes of the pedigrees I liked and what I liked about the dogs. But my first dogs that I started with were not much to look at. LOL Finally I contacted a few breeders who I spoke with and saw at the shows and they had no problems selling me dogs. Unfortunately I had bad luck in the beginning with soundness issues so it was back to the drawing board. I came into Labs about the time breeders were finally recognizing elbow dysplasia as a problem, so finding sound dogs became a mission for me. I finally was fortunate to purchase a lovely yellow boy out of bitch that I saw go Best In Sweeps at a Specialty show. He was my first Champion. I later purchased a lovely black girl from a breeder who happened to move close to me for a brief period of time and her grandsire was one of my all time favorite dogs so I had to have one of those pups. This bitch also became a Champion and both her and my yellow boy are behind every dog I have today. Their qualities are still seen in their grandkids and great grandkids.

So although I did not have a mentor per se in the beginning, through a lot of work, time and a lot of "mistakes", I found my way and I've been happy to share it with many newcomers to the breed.

I feel that I've more than paid my dues and can certainly recognize quality in any line now. I chose to keep a small amount of dogs though so I rarely go outside to purchase new dogs. I just breed to the sires that I like and think will go well with my stuff.

But as some have said, we have been burned and that makes us twice shy. Most of us do want to protect our bloodlines and do not like it when people come to us wanting to get nice dogs, promising the moon and then decide to make the wrong choices and burn us once again. I think it's all about paying our dues and showing our dedication to the breed and the dogs that are entrusted to us.

If you would like to discuss this further, my email is included, feel free to email me,

Dianne

hmmmm...that's strange, I've made no "potshots". I was the one who started this thread, respectfully, remember? Asking a question. I'm sorry.... I missed the emails where any "potshots" appeared...only on yours...I guess...
I entered an anonymouse discussion to try to AVOID sniping and deception, as you put it.
You were one of the breeders on this forum I was hoping to avoid, all the others have been kind and respectful, thank you to all of you, but an ounce of kindness always goes a long way...your anger worries me...sounds like you have been hurt, I'm sorry for that.
I'm not the "newbie novice" you fear. Dont' worry. don't you wish more newbies were looking for GOOD info??? Seeking out forums where well-seasoned breeders can HELP them?
No wonder the "newbies" go to "2nd rate" breeders...they seem to sometimes be the nicer ones, they remember what it was like 'getting started'.
I want to be one who helps new breeders someday, not like you.
I'm sorry you feel it necessary to "dress me down"
I still bless you, and wish you luck in your breeding and love of labs. I wish you all the best.

Thank you again, you have been so kind and candid...what I was looking for...wow...I'm getting encouraged now that there are NICE breeders out there...thank you soooo much.
Your thoroughness in answering my question is so much appreciated, and your professionalism is very apparent, right away.
I will take all of your input to heart, and immediately. I totally understand those who are "gunshy", believe me...but if you ask enough questions of your "newbies" , you'll have enough "descernment" hopefully to identify the "fakers"...
I'm trying to avoid the "years of mistakes" and do better than the other "newbies!"
All of you out there...this lady is the kind of person who "dared" to answer me, honestly.
If anyone wonders why some "newbies" don't share their email or identity, you can see the other posts here (what I expected ) that are scathing.


Whoever you are, thank you, thank you again.

I also will change limited to full after basic requiements are met.

Mine include hlps, elbows, eyes, and a performance title of CD or JH or higher. If they are seriously considering breeding, I offer counsel and advice to point them in the right direction for dogs and pedigrees that will work with their dog.

MK

VERY smart, thank you, again, for the input in a NICE, professional fashion...
Wow, another nice person and reply...thanks so much!

The original poster has a very valid point and I admit we are as guilty of this as the next person. I could very easily be one of the established breeders who turned down someone trying to get started and this is my reasoning. When I bring puppies into the world I am totally responsible for their well being and how they spend the rest of their life. So anything that is being sold as show/breeding quality needs to be safeguarded to the extreme as these are the ones that can end up being the most abused. Let me stop right here and say that I don't think the pet pups need to be safeguarded any less and they are not. But its a totally different situation as most of the people who call me for pets are well versed on owning a dog and all the responsiblities that come with it and have absolutely no desire to ever breed a dog- and their dog will be part of their family so they are all taken care of and a totally different conversation ... so no more about them. Back to the intact, full reg. dogs-many of you have heard me say before that I do not believe a person should just wake up one day and decide they want to breed dogs anymore than they should walk down the street and find a computer and go open up a CPA office the next day. I think you need a lot of dog experience before you get into the breeding game. There are many other ways to get that experience without buying a dog to show and breed. Start in obedience or rally or agility or field work. Join a labrador club and work, and meet the people there. If not a Labrador club nearby, then join an all breed club, but I would still try to joint the nearest Lab club even if it is four states over as there are still things you can do to help the club and meet its members who are all Labrador breeders. As an established breeder who has put my heart and soul into what I do I want to know that those who get my breeding/ show dogs are going to give them the best life possible, use the pedigree well, actually show the dog should it be show worthy, understand something about dogs and how they think and about dog shows and how they work, do the right thing for the breed overall. Also most people after getting into dogs and dog showing get right out again after five years- and if I sold them a dog- well there goes the 35 years I put into making that pedigree. I also want to know I am not selling my dogs into a puppy mill, or to a backyard breeder who is just breeding to make a buck, or to a future Labradoodle breeder, or a breeder of silvers or miniatures. So that is why I want to know they have studied and learned and been involved in other aspects of the breed and with other breeders nearby.
Now to address the other part of her email- if I am so worried about my puppy buyers- as I should be- then why am I so willing to sell sperm to anyone. I consider that to be a very good question. It is something that has bothered me as well. I will say that we pretty much will never stand our dogs at stud for any pet people anymore, but then again that is pretty easy for us since we really are contacted more by show people and not pet people. In CA where we lived the pet people are fairly sophisticated about dog laws and pet overpopulation and not that interested in breeding pets, so we were off the hook there. But it was a stand we had decided to make. Still that leaves the 'show' breeders and what do we do to make sure they are someone we should be allowing to breed to our stud dogs- really nothing. Just requiring clearances and counting on other stud dog owners to spread the word about those that might be less than desirable bitch owners. I am not really sure what else we can do and am open to suggestions.
Judy

This is my real email and if you want to email me, you can. I'd be happy to share my story to you in an email if you want. I, too, am a novice in the sport. Six years. I have OB/Rally titles on my dogs and am planning my first litter....should my bitch decide to come into heat again.

But to answer your questions...
1. Long time breeders seem to turn away novices unless you have earned a reputation for yourself. Are you involved in clubs? LRC or Kennel Club. You need to get to know long time breeders to act as your references otherwise other breeders aren't going to know if you are honest and true about your desire to get into the sport. Think of it as a job interview. Rarely do you get the job because you say you can do it. Employers require past references, personal references, proof of past accomplishments. It IS hard and sometimes makes no sense especially when you run into mean people, but I wholeheartedly believe it's up to the novice to do the leg work in order to be taken seriously by long time breeders. Can it be done. You betcha, that's how I got to where I am and how I managed to obtain my bitch, not on co-own, imagine that.

2. I don't know about the clubs in your area, but the 2 LRC's that I belong to, as well as THE LRC, NLRC and the local kennel club have all been relatively easy to join. Some have harder rules/sponsorships required to get in than others, but I have never seen someone out and out turned down for membership. Is this club you are mentioning really that bad? I know when I first started with my first LRC, I had to break the ice myself, involve myself, and then the barriers came down. If I moped around that people weren't standing around with open-arms begging me to join, I would never have gotten to where I am. Yes, club's are NOTORIOUSLY clique-y, but I have never seen one turn down someone willing to work at their events...and then usually the barriers come down.

3.I don't think there is a trend to co-owns and not selling on Full Registration. Why should you NOT sell your pups on Full? Because it's not the right thing to do. There are unfortunately so many people out there who don't do the right thing in regards to breeding, and would you really want to run the risk of putting one of YOUR babies in the hands of a BYBer? I will be in this situation soon, where I'll be screening buyers and deciding on what to do if I am asked for FULL registration although I advertise only limited, but I couldn't bare to think that I put one of my babies into a home that is going to turn her into a breeding machine. I know that there are honest individuals who want FULL registration and may never want to breed, but that will be a one on one discussion when that arises.

4. Maybe you have certain breeders in mind when you wrote your comment about selling semen. Yes, there are many levels of breeders out there with each abiding by their own standards, but you see that everywhere...in your work place, in your church, in your neighborhood. People are different and will do things differently. Some run a tight ship when sending semen, some don't seem to care. Associate with the good people, avoid the bad people. I don't think it's necessary that the stud owner see your bitch, what's important is that you did the clearances. I am sure you know this but so many people out there are STILL NOT doing all the clearances. I am sure these people are not getting the semen shipped to them. I don't think there is a cut and dry answer.

OK, long winded as usual...well that's my 2 cents...

I personaly find your "know it all" attitude a major turn off! I am certain you have learned alot about Labradors in books, many vets have learned alot about whelping litters in books and classroom study, have they whelped many litters? probably not. Do they know more than I about whelping litters? probably not. Most long time breeders have spent years acquiring the knowledge they have. I have always tried to help people who were genuinely looking for help, learning, finding out how to get information, even referring to other breeders, has this always worked out, NO will I continue to do this yes, but newbie's do need to earn the opportunity, I don't freely give out information and assitance anymore, as I have been burned more than once.

Perhaps you should think of the old say "you catch more flies with honey than.."

I truley wish you the best, but I think you should sit back and think about how you approach breeder's, frankly coming on here to offend the breeder's you want to develope a relationship with is not your best approach.

ALL THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!

Some unnamed person wrote:
"hmmmm...that's strange, I've made no "potshots". I was the one who started this thread, respectfully, remember? Asking a question. I'm sorry.... I missed the emails where any "potshots" appeared...only on yours...I guess..."

Your entire "respectful" question was a pot shot at all the established breeders that read this forum. If you don't recognize that, then you really do need an attitude adjustment.

Some unidentified person wrote:
"If more people truly mentored and helped new breeders, we would not have the SAD state of negligent, out of control, terrible breeding, in this, the most popular breed in the US. All the more reason to replicate yourself...otherwise the "newbies" will just go "down the rung" so to speak, until someone will "teach' them,..."

Wow... I guess you don't just have a low opinion of the "established" breeders, but ALL Lab breeders! Perhaps your attitude is a good place for someone to start the mentoring process. Running down your peers is not a good way to gain their confidence and - again - says a lot about what sort of breeder you might become. Instead of focusing on what is wrong with all the breeders you have tried to work with, let's focus on what can be done to change your outcomes. If you want to be the kind of breeder YOU would want to work with, here are a few suggestions.

1. READ. Nearly every city of any size has a library (thank you Andrew Carnagie) and there are lots of books on both this breed and dogs in general. If people can not learn from a book, why are there so many "how to" books on the bestseller list??? If you have specific questions about what you read, those might make good topics for a forum like this. That is making valulable use of MANY mentors across various topics instead of just one. The internet is FILLED (gorged) with a glut of information - good, bad, incorrect, etc. - about Labs. Some of it is useful, some will teach you what NOT to do, some of it is just plain silly. Learning to pan the gold from the wide datastream is a skill that will help you in any endeavor - even breeding dogs.

2. Get out there! Go to LOTS of dog events. People love to talk about their dogs and will drop so much information that you can hardly absorb it all. If you are interested in shows, attend some specialties and offer to help with the activities (yes, even if you are not a club member)so that you have access to the people who know the topic. Even if you hate guns and don't eat meat, go to some field events and see the dogs at work - it will help you to understand the standard so you can discuss it better with the breeders you respect (if indeed there are any). Attend other venues as well - get a feel for the people and the dogs that excell at various activities.

3. Learning does not require "teaching". Don't blame a lack of education on the failure of others to accommodate you. Consider that mentorship is a COLLABORATIVE endeavor. Everyone thinks they know what makes a good mentor, but what does it require to be a good mentee?? Think on that seriously before you condemn anyone for not embracing you with open arms as a teacher. Perhaps you are not geared to working closely with one person - many people aren't. You may have to settle for lots of advisors in different areas of interest, from whom you glean insight and guidance in making your OWN decisions. In other words, you can become your own mentor by learning as much as possible through independent research, then applying logic and a LOT of personal introspection.

4. Be honest with yourself. Whether you learn from an established breeder or gather the expertise on your own, the most important aspect of becoming a TRUSTED breeder (or potential breeder) is to be responsible. That means taking responsibility for your actions, your decisions and even (yes, I mean here) your words. If you find there are some issues on which you wish to hide your identity, then you need to question your own honesty and integrity. THAT requires being honest with yourself so that you can be honest with others.

This is much more than I planned to post considering I am talking to a blank stone wall.....

Ms. Newbie - Maybe it's just my interpretation but you sure seem to have a smuggness to your responses. Maybe that should change and you might find yourself with a nice pup. Think about it. It also seems that you probably already know the answers to your questions. I think that you can't expect to jump to the head of the puppy line just because you don't want to make mistakes. Most people learn from their mistakes and learn much more than being handed the leash to a champion. What's wrong with co-owning? Did you say that no one will co-own with you or do you just not want to gain access to a top quality pup in that manner? You might want to pursue a co-own, it can work out well and will also provide you with a mentor.

I've got to go anonymous with this one. If multiple breeders are reluctant to help you, then it's probably you, not them. I've had a few approach me - there's something off, maybe too pushy, maybe too impatient, maybe just too obsessive. And just not someone I would want as a friend. And if I'm going to sell something on full registration I have to trust that person as a friend. The Lab community, although large, is pretty tightly knit and they do talk to each other about people looking to start showing and breeding. If you've contacted a hundred breeders, you've raised red flags all over the place. My advice? Back off, think in terms of a 5-10 year plan. Get a nice Lab from a good breeder on limited registration, do hunt tests, rally, obedience, etc, and attend specialties. Get to know people. Good luck!

The problem I've run into is that many clubs require two members to sponsor new applications. If one doesn't know anyone (being new), it's a catch-22! And no one really wants to talk to newbies who aren't members of a club and/or haven't proven themselves by being active in some venue.

I understand what you are saying here -- I live in Salt Lake City and the closest Lab club to me is Denver (to which I belong). What I suggest is attending a specialty of the club(s) that you would like to join and just chat with people there that belong to the club. I think that you will find it will be easy to cultivate relationships that would earn you a sponsorship. Also, consider joining an all-breed club in your area. This commitment goes a long way in finding sponsors as well.

Johanne

Nah, you just have to be creative. When I wanted to join my first LRC, I emailed local breeders that I found on the web, introduced myself, asked if they were in the club, knew a few from forums, and told them about myself and asked if they would mind signing. I met 2 nice ladies very willing to sign my application. At my current Kennel Club, we require attending 3 meetings to join, and most of the membership is willing to jump in and sign the application for someone new.

But I also saw alot of new people actually going to an event, offering help, getting to know the members, and when they were ready to apply, the members were willing to sign the app no problem.

One of the LRC's I am in has since dropped the sponsorship requirement...

I'm taking a different turn here.

What if one of the seasoned breeders sells a puppy to a pet person on limited registration who agrees to spay at a specific age. Puppy buyer decides their girl is so pretty they want to breed her at 16 months old, during her second heat and don't give a hoot about AKC paperwork as they never sent them in anyway. A local dog is used that also doesn't have clearances. Pups are sold to people with full registration, there's your line in that pedigree. 2 of those people then begin to breed your line again and it keeps going.

3 litters later and no clearances the puppy you sold with the right intentions was now bred to a Standard Poodle to have labradoodles? Again, there is your line in the "Doodle" pedigree. I've seen some Doodle breeders advertising stud dogs in their pedigrees'.

The point is sometimes aren't you and your puppies safer co owning with someone committed to doing things the right way than a puppy buyer than tells you everything you want to hear and is full of it? You can check up on things better with a co owned bitch then you can on a limited registration puppy that is solely owned by the purchaser.

Read the name I used and don't attack me please. It's a hypothetical situation that does happen.

Keep looking.

Yes, all this just perpetuates the newbies moving on to the "next rung down" because they can't really find help in the right "circles"...true, true, very true....

wow, how progessive their thinking is...I'm starting to really have faith that there are breeders out there that are not like the one that has all less than kind posts to me on this question.
Thanks again, for all of you who are being so helpful, and don't seem to have any ax to grind, are truly supportive to other breeders.
After all...that is what this post is promoting...isn't if funny how some people just miss the point. Actually I feel sorry for them...I love to hear the POSITIVE...that will carry throught in life, in breeding, everything, tells you alot...thanks so much to you that have put forth such "good karma"...positive interaction, true support of other breeders for each other.

good point, you are right ON...very good input...this is very productive discussion...great for a forum...

I'd never attack you...LOL! You are, again, another POSITIVE person in this forum..thank you.

I don't think the OP is smug at all using words like : Respectfully submitted

It seems she or he has done some research, perhaps they do have knowledge. Are they supposed to hide it and act stupid to attract a mentor that doesn't want to hear their opinion and wants a newbie that knows nothing? On a co owned bitch pup don't both parties have to sign a registration form for a litter and a contract would state who make decisions joint or otherwise?

Perhaps you've been barking up the wrong tree; found the wrong breeders for your needs and it isn't you. There are many hundreds in Canada, the States and Mexico.

I would attend Specialities and All Breed shows and let them get used to your face. Don't be afraid to compliment, watch everything, ask questions and listen. Perhaps you need to wait to tell them you are interested in a pup that is not on Limited Registration through AKC. Prove yourself to be an honest person that can be trusted in whatever way you can.

Take into account that some fine breeders have been burned in the past, the reason for hesitation which has nothing to do with you personally.

You're a brave person venturing onto this board, it can be ruthless, kind and informative all at the same time.

First, most breeders will sell on full registration, but with some considerations (co-ownership, etc...). That insures that they have some control, and also you have the mentorship, if that is what you really want. It is because these breeders care about their breed and their bloodlines, that they would require some control. Too many of us have been burned over the years from people with tons of promises that never came to fruition.

Second, most breed and all-breed clubs encourage membership and volunteerism. But, some will require that you actually come to meetings and/or events prior to joining. That's so they can meet you personally to determine your level of sincerity, and to make sure you actually want to join to participate as a member, not just get puppy referrals. Other clubs use associate memberships (like a trial basis for a year) to weed out those who would be good members from those who won't.

Third, if you stay at this long enough to produce your first great champion, you will have realized that this comes with blood, sweat, and tears, and you wouldn't want someone else ruining all that you've accomplished in one fell swoop. I have over 20 years in Labradors. I am at a point where I rarely want to buy from another breeder. I have my bitch line and out-cross to stud dogs when I want an out-cross. However, I can't believe I would have a problem buying from someone else...although, I might not want to settle for their second pick, when I can keep a first pick from my own litters. I just haven't found your statement to be at all true...especially if you have established yourself as someone with ethics in your program.

Lastly, some people live considerable distances away and that is why they use chilled semen. Can I reasonably ask someone from CA to bring their bitch for me to see in IL, prior to allowing a breeding? No. However, I will look in depth at the pedigree and clearances, and may suggest another breeder's dog living closer by...but then again, if they have done all clearances and have a nicely bred bitch, one that has done some showing/competition, why would I want to turn them down? It's nice to evaluate temperments, too, but not always practical. I do so if they are local enough to bring their bitch.

Okay, no flames. I have answered all questions honestly. I have used my real name, too! I don't mind standing behind what I say on the internet. :)

Best regards,

Leslee Weiner-Pope
Huntcrest

oh my...thanks god someone posted things long time lab breeders hate to discuss
Well done newbie..sometimes these old breeders have to listen real things, specially those who turns away to new breeders.
I think one day they needed the help of other breeders who had been in this sport for a long time,
and I do not understand why they turn they're backs as they were the kings today. They only know how to tell off and yell there are bad guys out there so they just generalize everything.
does it hurt? what is the taste of this han?

awwwww....thanks, you are so sweet....
I really was trying to be respectful when asking the honest questions I had, and I appreciate so many of you that keep giving me great input...I understand the ones who have been burned...and I will remember all the warnings they are giving...so I don't make a mistake selling to the wrong person some day myself!
This forum is very interesting, I have "observed" it for quite some time...and yes, I guess I was brave to "venture in" (or stupid...LOL!) but well worth it.
I am already learning that the 99% are very positive and informative to interact with...the other 1%...ummmmm....well...you know...I think they have been hurt...I feel bad for them...

yes, forcing all of us to answer the "hard questions" is not a "threat" its a good thing...thanks for your encouragement. I knew there would be a lot of newbies out there that would be interested in seeing how the "old breeders" respond...and enjoy the transparency that needs to be experiences in order for the betterment of the breed to go on....
I have learned over time, that if you don't ask the hard questions, no one ever steps to the "next level"...people bury their heads in the sand.
Maybe its the "newbies" who will actually take us into the next generation...with our eyes wide open...thanks to the ones who hand on their knowledge and experience.
WE all know that no one wants to deal with "negativiy"...lets all be positive and champions of the new genereation of labradors...lets take it to the next level...
thank you so much, another positive force on this forum.

Awww...thank you Leslie...

Very true, when you have a good quality bitch, who cares about buying from another breeder??? pointless...you can produce the puppies YOU want...totally.

Did you ever wonder... would it be better to have the "newbie" come to you to breed to your stud dog...when you know if you turn them down, they'll go to "Joe Blow backyard breeder" to get their stud sevice...oh, I think I just dropped another bomb...and I'm sure someone will think its a "pot shot"...but if you knew in your heart of hearts they could use your stud dog (who you have confidence in!) or would go to the "2nd rate breeder"...which would let you sleep an night???
I've heard of breeders who struggle with this...
Which is better for the sake of the BREED(???)...again, I'm digging deep in the hard questions...I trust you all to mull over this and really put some good discussion out there in the forum...lots of you guys are just "troopers" and I commend you...thank you.
Many of my other "newbie" friends are enjoying this discussion (they are observing from a distance)..and you are all making a deep impression on them (remember, it can be good or bad) so, I appreciate your attention to this.
Again, thank you for your positive input...I take it to heart, Leslie.

This is a little hard to follow with the newbies or who ever. It seem like someone is answering themselves again. You really have to work for a good pup. We all have. Do some obedience with one of your dogs. Be at shows watching. Help out a breeder. Not fair to look for short cuts. If a pup is good for showing I want to keep it. Maybe two or three. Not about to hand over a hard earned nice line. As far as, stud dogs. I turn people down all the time. Am pickie. Don't have alot of money just love my lines and don't want to hand them out even from the boy. Look at all the clearances and pedigree in depth. You are right some just collect money. Not sure why. JMO

EXCELLENT question!

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

As a novice breeder, I have a question I hope some of you "seasoned" breeders can help me with. In all the training and books I have read on breeding labs, I have been told over and over that I must start with a quality bitch from a breeder who has already spent years and years of educating themselves in the breed, then breed that bitch selectively to a Champion stud dog that will contribute qualities to her that she may be lacking...all to try to improve the breed, and ultimately produce the best "type" possible, apply all aspects of AKC breed standard. Having given that general introduction, here is my question...
After interviewing almost a hundred, well respected lab breeders...here is what I find...none of them will sell a pup on full registration...at all...so here is my question:
1. If these breeders truly care about improving the breed, why would they turn away someone who would like to do what's RIGHT, and therefore force that person to (god forbid) go to another breeder who WILL sell on full registration, therefore knowingly NOT giving the best to the breed...perhaps the one selling on "full registration" is truly NOT producing what the seasoned breeder is...and the novice may not see the minute differences...in thier inexperience, of course...
2. Why do breed clubs turn away those wanting to be MENTORED??? Why, again, would you cause these people to "wander" and make mistakes over the years, when you could have contributed to an up and coming breeder (of course, all of you won't be here in 40 years)...who will pick up the torch??
3. Am I missing other things that are causing this trend that I should know? Of course, if I do ever produce the next Champion Labrador...why should I not sell any pups on full registration to ANYone whatsoever (I've heard that even breeders with over 20 years of experience, and a stellar show career can't even buy pups out of other breeders lines on full registration.)
4. Why do these same breeders think NOTHING of selling the novice breeder fresh chilled semen, if the bitch shows all clearances, but they never even see this bitch in person???? Maybe only pictures...its seems like a "double standard" to the outsider...

Please forgive me for my ignorance, but please hear my sincerity, and my search for understanding.
I hope many of you will be brave and candidand give me the thinking behind this...
Thanks so much ahead of time.
I know some of the breeders on this forum can be pretty brutal in their responses from what I have observed, so can you all answer me in a kind manner (???)...thank you so very much...
(I know I'll find someone candid out there, since it is ok to submit posts without anyone knowing who you are...that is nice...)
Respectfully submitted

LOL! thanks...I guess I was the "crazy one" who DARED to ask!!!

Good for you!!!!

thank you for your input.

I'm not a long time breeder by any standards. So I can remember searching for a breeder and my first show prospect.

I guess what I would suggest a "newbie" looking for that first show prospect, is take a good look at how can you prove yourself to a breeder so they might entrust one of their show prospects to you. It's very easy to talk the talk and just say you would like to "show"... what "history" do you bring that you can offer, any track record of commitment ,involvement in activities, training, clubs, etc. with your dogs?

I have another suggestion. Get into pedigree research. That can take many hrs in a day if you have the time for years and you still won't know it all. Check the OFA database and look at what is behind different breeders' dogs. Look at the dogs that pass or failed certain clearances as your goal should be to breed a as healthy as possible and also a good representative of the breed. That can take a decade or longer once you possibly have a pup.

There are certain breeders that are very health concious and with time you will figure out who they are. There are others' that are not as much so. Just because clearances are done does not mean the line is healthy, look back at their pedigree's repeatedly. LISTEN yet as a newbie don't tell your newbie friends tales out of school either. If someone confides in you keep the knowledge with you, they may be right and they may be gossiping. Until you also learn who you can trust don't bad mouth a stud dog or a particular line. You may choose to stay away from it just in case and that's fine. There are many stud dogs out there that will suit your eventual bitch.

Ultimately, you want to earn the trust of more than just your mentor to be. Let others' respect your desire to learn, ask questions and to listen.

Enjoy your learning experience, if you're serious you're in for a long one.

I would also suggest being honest in what you can and can't do with the dog yourself. Some might be swayed for the fact that the dog would actually live as someone's beloved pet first and and foremost and happy that one of their pups are going to get a chance to be "seen" and have their chance in the ring although maybe at a more leisurely pace... others may want to be sure their dog was going to be seriously campaigned when ready. I would just be real honest and upfront. You'll know pretty quickly when you run across that breeder that has a style of dogs you like and one you click with.

Maybe I missed something a little while back, but when someone mentioned getting a bitch on an AKC-LR, then breeding her at 16 months anyway and selling the pups on a FR, did anyone else notice that you couldn't register those pups anyway? If the bitch was on a LR, then none of her offspring are registrable!

you are sooooo right.
funny thing is (sad actually), is I have entrusted some breeders with NUMEROUS champion dogs, (and bought pups from them) only to find they secretly "fudge" on OFA elbows, etc... and don't even do Optigen...I was very dissappointed. They were like, "oh the show people just want good structure...they are not as PICKY as the "pet buyers" Wow, wake up call...what is up with that???
I think I just threw another bomb...sorry...hard questions, again...

Boy, I hope there are people out there that will disclose everything...and not just try to get the "lowest possible rating" just so they can show a dog...I feel that there should still be the highest of standards, no matter who your buyer? Can I get an Amen??

You bring up a good point...and I have to tell you, I have bought dogs on a co-ownership only to find that the dog was in no way show potential, then had the breeder mad at ME because their puppy was not potential, and the fact that I would not just show there pup for THEm...I would not just show a dog because they wanted met to...the dog was truly not show potential.

I also have heard horror stories of co-ownerships where the breeder reserves breeding rights...true story: breeder sells male pup on co-ownership...takes the dog out of this persons home almost every other month for stud service, yanks the dog from its home, kids crying...missing their dog...but, oh...it was a contract (more then they bargained for...more than they could have imagined) These are the horror stories of co-ownership, and why us newbies are not so "keen" on them...WE are actually gunshy about some show breeders...does this make sense???

clarification: we were talking about a person selling semen to a person with a bitch who was clearly going to sell her pups on full registration...LOL! I know...its a long time since that original post...

Can't believe how many people haven't figured out how closely the writing style of this "newbie" matches a few other anonymous "newbies."

Red Birch, you missed part of that.

That post stated that in that scenario the bitch was unregistered b/c the owners didn't care about registration and many don't bother.

What if one of the seasoned breeders sells a puppy to a pet person on limited registration who agrees to spay at a specific age. Puppy buyer decides their girl is so pretty they want to breed her at 16 months old, during her second heat and don't give a hoot about AKC paperwork as they never sent them in anyway. A local dog is used that also doesn't have clearances. Pups are sold to people with full registration, there's your line in that pedigree. 2 of those people then begin to breed your line again and it keeps going.