Labrador Retriever Forum
Thanks for a great post.
I absolutely ditto what you wrote. I said almost the same thing to an exhibitor last evening (phone call) who was complaining about "all breed" shows because only the "handlers" win. Well, they DO have an edge in that they can usually pick and choose which dogs to show to a particular judge AND know just how to present that dog based on the judge's tastes.
When I was exhibiting, I finished a nice dog one day with BOB and placed second in the group. I did a photo of each win - and it does not look like the same dog in the two photos! One judge liked a posed sloping topline (yes, even on a Lab) and the other wanted the dogs presented free standing. I can do both - and was willing to do so in order to appeal to the different judges, even though I personally don't like the stretched out look of the sloped stack. That sort of knowledge and the expertise to get the most out of a dog is the handler's edge. As an owner-handler, I had to be just as good at it as those who made it their living in order to get my share of the wins.
The judge has less than 2 minutes per dog - and you can't be fussing with your dog when the judge is looking or you lost your opportunity. Preparation and training DO make a difference in what the judge can see in the ring. The notion that a good judge should be able to find a good dog even when it is shown really badly is wishful thinking. It may happen at times, but a dog that is unable to be examined properly or can not gait in a controlled fashion is not likely to win. Sorry.
One other myth that I have heard over and over is that XYZ judge only looks at ABC handler. Hogwash! As in all professions, I am sure there is a certain amount of politics and prejudice. However, in the few years I have been judging, I have yet to hear a judge talk about how great a handler was, but have heard many rave about a dog they had the opportunity to judge. What really makes a judge's day is to have some wonderful, typey dog surprise them in their assignment. Nearly all of them LOVE judging, the breeds they see AND the sport. Most that I have heard chat about judging take the responsibility of selecting future breeding stock very seriously - and don't get swayed by all the glitter even though the name of the game is dog SHOW.
So, in my experience as both an exhibitor and judge, I have found the widespread claims of "politics" to be a convenient myth - convenient for explaining your losses, that is. The most that I notice about the "handler" in my ring is the color of skirt, slacks or jacket. That makes it easier to remember and spot the dogs I liked in a large class 
>>As an exhibitor we have Every Right to complain about bad judging. We pay entry fees, work long and hard to produce a typey lab, spend big money on transportation and hotel bills; not to mention loss of time with family and love ones. A typey lab is still a typey lab; this is not a contest about presentation skills. Politics do exist as well as bad judging. There are to many dogs being put up with incorrect fronts, incorrect coats, bad rears,droopy toplines,and unpleasent heads. The last thing any breed needs is an uneducated, unknowledged judge deciding it's fate. Stop focusing on bites and look at the whole dog.>>
Very well said and so true. A judge that KNOWS the standard and a typey, well put together Labrador can forget about presentation skills and put the best dog up. Too often that's not what we see. Pro handlers and judges worrying more about presentation than what's being shown are how medicre dogs get finished. It's a game and it's how we have to look at it if we want to continue in the sport of dog showing, an expensive game, but none the less, a game where the best dog doesn't automatically win. 
Aint THAT the truth!!
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>>As an exhibitor we have Every Right to complain about bad judging. We pay entry fees, work long and hard to produce a typey lab, spend big money on transportation and hotel bills; not to mention loss of time with family and love ones. A typey lab is still a typey lab; this is not a contest about presentation skills. Politics do exist as well as bad judging. There are to many dogs being put up with incorrect fronts, incorrect coats, bad rears,droopy toplines,and unpleasent heads. The last thing any breed needs is an uneducated, unknowledged judge deciding it's fate. Stop focusing on bites and look at the whole dog.>>
Very well said and so true. A judge that KNOWS the standard and a typey, well put together Labrador can forget about presentation skills and put the best dog up. Too often that's not what we see. Pro handlers and judges worrying more about presentation than what's being shown are how medicre dogs get finished. It's a game and it's how we have to look at it if we want to continue in the sport of dog showing, an expensive game, but none the less, a game where the best dog doesn't automatically win.
You did leave off that the uncooperative, hostile, or beligerent patient may not get a speedy, accurate diagnosis - or fast, efficient, appropriate care. Yes, there is a standard of care in medicine and a standard for judging as well. The accuracy of both are undermined and can lead to poor decision making when the individual being examined can not be properly evaluated. I, too, am a medical professional and have seen this happen repeatedly with even excellent practitioners. Again, there is no crystal ball for evaluating important traits with an unruly exhibit - human or animal. If you truly believe otherwise, then you haven't been in medicine as long as I have 
Most of the judges I have met and taken the time to know ARE professionals and deal with difficulties you might not imagine in your worst scenario. I wish I could say the same for MOST of the breeders and exhibitors I have met in my many decades in this sport. Over the years, I have repeatedly chatted (as a fellow exhibitor) with owners who lost and couldn't understand why. When I asked how they felt some particular "glaring" trait of their dog fit the standard, MOST admitted that they didn't know what the standard said about that trait. That part of the standard wasn't important to them. I'm sure you would not get that sort of answer from ANY judge of that breed. The middle of the ring is not where I observe a lack of professionalism.
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"That is the reality in any field of endeavor";how can you say that? I'm in the medical profession, if a patient presents to me as uncooperative, hostile, or beligerent I still have to provide him/her with standard of care, not do a hack job because they are not a "good patient"; I'm sure the state board would love that excuse. You're living in Disney World,all judges need to be professionals and deal with the difficulties of their chosen endeavor.
" Give them a break Judge. "
Don't forget that EVERY judge has first been an exhibitor. They are not "new" to the sport or the problems of the various venues. I know that I give every dog a fair chance - some may even get a better than fair chance - to demonstrate the essence of the standard. It is what all of us expected as exhibitors and I doubt if ANY judge has forgotten what it was like to be on the end of that lead. Again, as the first poster stated, there is limited time and we do the VERY best we can to find that one gem in the ring - even if it is a diamond in the rough
For those who do not know what is required to apply to judge, visit the AKC website and look at the application form. It may alter your attitude a bit.
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/RJL003.pdf
Ok -- so let's have the name of that nice person who helped out a competitor!
With all the negative comments we hear all the time (and you know if someone pulled a shady trick we'd all hear!), let's have the name so we can all publicly applaud a generous deed!!
You wrote:
" Which is why it may be hard to be objective and pay more attention to a good dog rather than an inexperienced handler. "
I guess I miss the point. Can you explain what you mean? Having been an exhibitor for at least 12 years, most judges are accustomed to paying a LOT of attention to the dog and almost none to other people in the ring - well, except for maybe the judge
As an exhibitor, I have won groups with a dog that never wagged in the ring and always looked bored with the whole process - he was the smart one of us. I have also lost with dogs that were "too" animated for the judge because they wagged up a storm and didn't "pose" as well.
As a judge (and breeder) I think our breed is usually a happy one. They typically have a "tail told" temperament and at least wave the tail to indicate that true Labrador attitude. It might make the difference in a placement to me as a sign of correct temperament when the OTHER aspects of conformation are a toss up.
In a breed that was designed to work for a living, an unsound dog lacks type. I would not reward an unsound dog with all the attitude in the world over a sound specimen that showed a tractable temperament, but was bored by the show ring. After all, they were not bred to stand still and wag, then trot around a small enclosed space. If you read it carefully, function is the primary focus of our standard. The attributes to do the work have to be more important than a tail wag.
So.... now I have likely opened another can of worms entirely. Sorry.
you wrote:
I have seen ... completely oversized dogs rewarded too many times.
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I have not seen an oversized dog since the DQ was placed in the standard.... not ONE. Maybe they are shown in other parts of the country (or are you from another country where the size is different??)I have instead seen MANY undersized dogs and bitches alike given the nod without a thought to wicketing.
I finished two brothers that were just over 25 inches tall - over the current standard - before it went into effect. They were not the largest dogs in the ring at the time. By contrast, I am currently showing a 23.5 inch dog (middle of the standard!!!) that has been the tallest in the ring every time shown.
So, as a matter of personal interest, in what geographical location have you seen all of these oversized dogs rewarded so many times? If they are currently being shown and winning, I will know where to show my boy so he won't look so big
Yes, I have to agree with you, I have a boy who is older and a finished Ch., who is 1/4" over the the low of the standard and he was the tallest dog in the ring and still is? So, were are the tall dogs
I have to laugh
with all the fighting with the standard, it backfired! Labradors are as small today then they ever were. I had a boy who was 24" and he finished years ago, right after the new standard. So, yes were are all these tall dogs. Good too hear, but were are they???
Love those smaller dogs. Overdone still a problem. 
I haven’t been in the breed long and I have seen politics at work. The worst was an oversized bitch that won. And yes she was being shown by a well known handler. She wasn’t a little over the standard either, she was huge! And size wasn’t her only fault. For the most part, I agree that professional handlers have an edge, but an inferior dog shouldn’t be put up because it is presented better. I can take my b*tch and place in my class every time at a specialty but I can’t get WB at an all breed show. I will admit it has more to do with my lack of skill then any fault that she has. What I hate is the “few” judges that think they are “important”! I have even seen a judge yell at a person who made a mistake in the ring. She didn’t move up in line. Luckily it wasn’t me because I probably would have broke down in tears. He really went in to her and she was obviously new and this was at a sporting dog speciality. There was no reason for that!
There is no reason whatsoever for a judge thinking they can raise their voice to anyone in the ring, Ever ! The thought disgusts me, talk about an exagerated sense of one's self ! Puhleeze...this is a dog show we are talking about , there are young men and women dying all over the world, let's keep things in perspective !
Remember who pays the judge, it's us , those lowly exhibitors !
Maybe they don't mean tall. Oversized can be in other ways, right? And I'd have to agree with that comment! And our weight standard is????
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Yes, I have to agree with you, I have a boy who is older and a finished Ch., who is 1/4" over the the low of the standard and he was the tallest dog in the ring and still is? So, were are the tall dogs
I have to laugh with all the fighting with the standard, it backfired! Labradors are as small today then they ever were. I had a boy who was 24" and he finished years ago, right after the new standard. So, yes were are all these tall dogs. Good too hear, but were are they???
You wrote:
" Is that how you avoid statements you don't care to answer? As for judges not paying attention to the handler's techniques, etc. and pays more attention to the dog, I disagree. "
Honestly, I am not trying to avoid anything. I just didn't get your point and asked you to explain it. I don't think judges DO pay a lot of attention to the handlers - good or bad. They DO pay a lot of attention to the DOGS. Unfortunately, a dog can look unbalanced due to the handler - and since judges have had at least 12 years experience exhibiting, they KNOW that problem! If a dog is moving at the wrong speed so that it looks awkward or standing with the nose pointed straight up (which typically puts a dip in the topline and throws the shoulders off) or some of the other more common handling errors, the judge may ask the exhibitor to change what is being done so that the dog can be evaluated more accurately. Sometimes this can result in a dog that looked mediocre suddenly pulling itself together better and looking great. However, if the dog is STILL awkward or swaybacked, then the judge has seen the true dog, not an illusion created by the handler.
" I've actually had a judge tell me my boy moved around the ring too close to me. She said, "He's much nicer than that" and gave the points to another dog. "
In my past experience, it never made me feel the judge was any more intelligent based on comments about why they made a certain choice - usually the opposite. I try to avoid making them and think that is probably a good rule to follow. This judge made you feel that your handling caused your dog to lose, not his quality. I am sorry that happened.
If you feel a "however" coming on, here it is. If your dog is moving very close to your body, that may interfere with his gait and result in a constant "bumping" that makes him look off balance. I have seen it and had it happen to me as well. I know one handler that snubbed a top special right up close to her so his gait returning to the judge was thrown off by bumping her knee repeatedly. It was the only way she could try to hide his awkward front assembly!! Many judges thought it was "handler error" and gave the dog the benefit of the doubt for his other excellent qualities. Some judges didn't reward him because they felt the "handler error" kept the dog from proving his quality. Some very smart judges saw the trick for what it was and were not fooled one bit about the dog's shoulders So, here is the question: Which of these judges were right?
I hope you see MY point. Judges typically only notice the HANDLING when it interferes with evaluating the DOG - it is the dog that is the focus of the attention. Some notice the handling errors and judge the dog as having traits that it may not possess in order to compensate. Some notice handling errors, but judge the dog as if it lacks the traits that the exhibitor may be obscuring. Some of the more innovative or experienced judges find other ways to evaluate the traits that are in question. None of these are BAD judges, but the outcomes under them will be very different.
You wrote:
" We can all agree that most all breed Judges will love the better moving dog in our breed.
I do like a good moving dog but I also like that short body typey Lab and frankly the shorter the body the less good movement you will get. "
I do agree with most of your comments, but wanted to point out that even YOU equate correct Labrador movement with "less good movement" - I would like Lab people and judges to get out of that mentality! What we have to get accustomed to seeing and rewarding is "breed appropriate" movement, which is NOT the same in every breed!!!!!
The Labrador has some unique traits that were selected by the originators for a specific purpose. The loin is shorter, wider and deeper than the other retrievers. That is why our breed does not have a "tuck up" like most others. The balance and proportion DO change the gait and Labs of that structure do NOT move like a Setter!
Many of the dogs that do well at group level with an extended, open gait are noticabely longer than tall (the standard calls for square) and much of the extra length is in the loin (REALLY contrary to the standard) to allow a very extended side gait. Judges that do not clearly understand the REASON why Labs are different will reward these exhibits - heck, even at specialties
However, don't blame the judges entirely - especially those who came from another sporting breed that DOES move that way. Somewhere along their "judge's education" path, it was not explained WHY Labs are different and HOW they are to move. They also can't learn that from the breeders or exhibitors they see in the ring, when there are SOOOO many of the long-loined exhibits being shown. Their logic has to be that if it is not correct, why do the breeders keep breeding it and the owners keep exhibiting it? The eye is trained by what it sees - and many judges never get to see the proper Labrador gait rewarded when they are learning about the breed. We have a self-perpetuating problem.
I don't have the solution - wish I did. I know that breeders, exhibitors, handlers and judge's education presenters are all a factor in changing the perception of what is a correct Labrador gait. It doesn't help when even those who recognize the problem (like the poster I am answering) calls it "less good" ----- it is not only good, it is CORRECT!!!!! We have to change OUR perceptions and attitude before we can change the judges
I agree with Laura. It is a show. The dog should show himself. If two dogs are there and equal but one is just standing there and the other is a happy Labardor, like they are suppose to be. I pick the fun, happy boy. I have had both and I felt bad with the dog that did not wag. I love it when they are full of themself. Stand still for the judging but be happy after that.
I have said for years that maybe we should pay extra to get judges to SMILE I have been showing for years and I have to tell you some of the judges look like they hate there "JOB". I would like to see more Judges be happy and look more appreciative of the dogs. Heck a couple of weeks ago, I watched a judge in a different breed, I was laughing , the judge was watching the dogs in the next ring. That was on the down and back and the go around Boy, those exhibitors should have gotten there money back. As a exhibitor, I thought to myself I wouldn't show to this judge, he/she either doesn't know the breed, doesn't care for the breed or is totally bored!
I do know the breed the judge was judging and there were some nice dogs in the ring, if the judge would have quit watching the other ring! So, when we are told too keep the dog up in the ring, the judge is always looking, guess what, the exhibitors are always watching the judge!
Also, judges, would you quit asking the exhibitor "how old is your dog?" Do you guys forget what class your judging? The next judge that I hear that from, I will tell them "OLD ENOUGH TO BE HERE", very nicely of course!
I think if you look it up, the judge isn't allowed to ask you anything about the age or anything like that in the ring!
I think exhibitors look at the wrong end of the lead FAR more than judges. When I have asked a judge that I had a big entry what they put up, I get a description of the dogs. When I ask an exhibitor who was there what won, I am told WHO owned the dog or showed it. Neither of these gives me the information I was looking for - the name of the dog so I can look up more about it - but it certainly tells me what was the focus of attention!!!
It is my perception over the years that people who think that judges are looking at the handlers are the sort of people who focus their attention on the handlers. We expect others to think as we do and so attribute to them the same motives we have. Basically, we trick ourselves into believing a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Does this mean that there are no politics? Of course not! But if you believed that only the owner or handler mattered, why would you continue to show? I am not that masochistic!
You wrote:
[Also, judges, would you quit asking the exhibitor "how old is your dog?" Do you guys forget what class your judging? The next judge that I hear that from, I will tell them "OLD ENOUGH TO BE HERE", very nicely of course!]
Any dog over 6 months of age may be shown in any class for which it is eligible. Puppies do not have to be shown in puppy class and often are not. Age can make a difference when a young dog is shown in a class with much older dogs. The judge needs to know if a lack of maturity in a BBE dog is due to age or structure. It DOES make a difference!!
Even in the puppy classes, a barely 6-month old can be WAY smaller or different from a nearly 9-month old. They are in the same class, but knowing the age can be a factor in which is the best FOR ITS AGE. I appreciate judges who ask the steward, which is really the preferred method. As a steward I have had to look up the age of a dog many times for a judge. That way the judge gets the informaton to make a decision and the exhibitor isn't repeatedly irritated - like the person who posted the above comment
Okkkkkkkkkkkk. It is very simply to win or loose, It is your choice.
To many thoughts on why my dogs looses. Think about his happiness and enjoy your job showing, If he is a good dog he will win. Bring him to many judges, keep record. If he is in the ribbons 1st and 2nd place geezzzzzzz bring him again. Maybe youll get rwd or rwb. maybe youll win.If he leaves you in last place. I would not go back to that judge. JMO.
Dont go to large big shows unless it is close to home. I would only go to large shows and big entrees with supported or specialities of your breed.
You can check with dog show supt. for show entrees. small point shows are very important. These shows are fast and 1 or two points. try getting your points by yourself. You can always have the dog finished by a pro. Trust me if you are worried more about the politics more then showing get out of dog show business. It is here to stay. Also I have always breed to dogs that are used often in the breed world, They are usually very well established lines and their lines are much in the ribbons. I dont mean popular, well known kennels. You are bringing dogs into the ring for future of the labrdor retriever,You will get ( hopfully) what you need to improve your lines and may get you into the ribbons or a CH. Dont run or breed to the dog next store so to speak. get yourself a true Mentor!! Dont knock the handlers,They are professional and work very hard at their job, It is a huge responsiblity. I know if I judged I would never pass up true beauties in the ring.That is Im sure what 99.9% judges will do. They care much for the breed.
Thank you for your answer, that is what I know to be true, but like you said it is best for the judge to ask the ring stewart, not the exhibitor
The dogs that I'm talking about were in the correct class "puppy" 6-9 and 12-18 classes. What I forgot to mention the judges will ask allot of the exhibitors in the ring in the same class. I would rather them to say, HI! and what a sweet boy or girl! Some of the newbie people are really nervous and the questions really get them more nervous! When you have a class in the ring and the dogs look the same size and there is nothing out of the ordinary, the judge should be able to see what is there. Just my observation of things and yes, I have great respect for judges even if they looked bored or whatever. I just thought that some of there comments are uncalled for and they should SMILE more often It helps break the ice if you know what I mean. People get pissed enough at judges for different stupid reasons, but I think having a happy or pleasant judge would make more people less angry! It works both ways!
I have to say that one judge asked me that and I drew a total blank!
I remembered that the dog was in 6-9 class, so I said 8 months. I think I had a youngster that was acting up or something made me nervous, but when I got out of the ring, I had to look it up and I was hoping that the judge didn't, because the puppy was just 7month
Wow, that is really to the point! Now we have to watch commercials on TV for weight loss in our fat labradors this thread is getting really out of hand
I'd like to thank all of the judges comments in this thread. Chalk it up to being basically an older newbie but I feel like the day I can't walk out the ring with a smile and Thank you to the judge regardless of how I place is the day I will reconsider showing my dogs. I enjoy so much I think I would just about walk into the ring with ANYTHING just for the fun of competition. I'm sure all the old pro's would roll there eyes and gasp at the that thought, but gosh, any day of competition with one of my dogs is a GOOD day in my opinion.
I have judged horses, and I've judged livestock. I completely understand most judges point of views. There are days I've walked out a class and a friend of mine might say, "that wasn't the best horse in the class" and my reply usually is "but it was the best horse in the class today!"
Why? Because I either saw something that put the best in second and saw something that put second to first!
My first dog show experience as an adult years ago was such a positive one, I haven't been able to stop yet.
I showed a black bitch in a novice class, freaked out when I got there saw the catalog and noticed i was the only one in the class. Thank the lord for a gracious judge who took a moment to talk to me while going over the ONE bitch entered in the class with 100% of his attention! Turned a panic newbie into a relaxed exhibitor in 2 seconds.
I had a lot of positive show experiences and a few that weren't, but when all was sad done and I don't remember blaming any but myself
As for judges talking or asking questions to exhibitors, the dog show world is one of the few where it's taboo.
It's just my opinion but no matter what your showing in the only think I know for sure is complaining about who's on first never changed anything, just added worry lines.
Thanks to everyone who gave their input on the above question, I appreciate the feedback. It was very interesting to read many of the responses,it's clear that many have different thoughts on temperment. I'll stick with even and quiet.
