To those with more experience;

In your opinion and in your personal experience, what are the chances of a second opinion being different in regards to opthomologists?

I just yesterday has two pups, a 7 mo old female Golden and a 13 mo old chlt female Lab fail their first CERF exame at a clinic. Any chance it's worth waiting a few month and trying again?

The Golden was diagnosised with entropion in both bottom eyelids, and the Lab with retinal folds in one eye. All their parents, grandparents, as well as all other relatives I own, co-own, or know about have good eyes. The opthomologist said it was hereditary and not even to repeat the breeding that created these pups. Any thoughts or suggestions? Should I just go ahead and spay now and start to place them or wait and get another opinion when they're older?

TIA

You should always have an acvo vet check the entire litter at about 8 weeks of age...routine rechecks after that. it is a shame to have a nice hopeful wash out at 18 months because you waited too long for an exam.

First of all, check with Cerf - I'm not sure that entropion is cause for failure. It may be a breeder's option.

Has the Golden had problems with the yes? Usually - you notice entropion with the naked eye. Sometimes entropion "works on itself". In other words, I had a puppy that had it very early on - like 4 weeks. She had so much coat that I think it forced the hairs into the eye. We tacked them at 8 weeks and they turned out fine. If left untreated, the eye continues to pull back into the head (to avoid the scratching hairs) and therefore, continuing to make it worse. I wonder if it is too late to tack?

As far as the Lab - I would get a second opinion. You can find info about the theory that there are 2 different kinds of folds. Some of this theory comes from Great Britain. There are opth. in the US that believe the theory.

As far as heredity, I would say that both can pop up - even when the parents don't exhibit it.

The parent might not exhibit retinal dysplasia if the exam was done too late. Sometimes the folds become impossible to detect in an adult sized labrador...but it still may have retinal dysplasia even if it passes the exam. That's why it is important to check at about 8 weeks of age. It is always best to check the entire litter...not just one or two.

I hope this is not a dumb question, but how do we know, or how would an opthomologist know, if the folds present at 8 weeks, if not apparent when older, just aren't noticable verses having just gone away? For example, I understand that small heart murmers can be present in younger pups but they can go away with age.

Boy, sorry to hear this. Know you were so shocked. What a shame. I don't get to do mine at 8 weeks but sure get them out very young for whatever might shwo up. Wish I knew more. My girl with Entropion had surgery and was placed. Her eye did run a little.
No other family members had or have had it since.
Let us know if you get a second opinion and what they say.

I had a girl diagnosed with a fold at 13 months. ACVO vet wasn't sure if it was a puppy fold that never healed or something else. Her eyes weren't checked prior to that. I got a second opinion from another ACVO who didn't seem at all concerned about the fold. One ACVO thought the issue could have been due to some sort of trauma to the eye. In each case, the ACVO vets agreed that the fold itself was not indicative of RD. As others on here have stated in past threads, the location of the fold is important as well.

I have bred this girl several times and had most of the pups eyes examined. All eye exams have been completely clear thus far (knock on wood) including checks at 8-10 weeks. And FWIW, during later exams, mom's eyes showed no indications of folds.

"I had a girl diagnosed with a fold at 13 months. ACVO vet wasn't sure if it was a puppy fold that never healed or something else. Her eyes weren't checked prior to that."
I'm sorry, but retinal folds do not "heal" Retinal folds ARE Retinal Dysplasia and the fact that they may flatten out as the eye grows larger does not mean that anything "healed" or that they "went away". I can't understand how any vet would pass that dog based upon speculation and without a complete history.

to Candyheart
Retinal folds (if present)at eight weeks of age indicate an abnormal development of retinal tissue (Retinal Dysplasia. The folds appear as ridges which reflect light differently than normal retinal tissue. With many cases, especially mild cases of retinal dysplasia or "folds" the folds may flatten out and become impossible to detect as the eye grows larger, but there is no "healing", reattachment, or overgrowth of normal retinal tissue. The retinal tissue remains abnormal for the life of the dog, even though it may subsequently be able to pass an ACVO exam.

Maybe this is a very stupid question but how does one learn unless asked?

What is the big deal about puppy folds that are undetectable as an adult?
If they are undetectable, aren't they "gone"?

And what long term issues come from folds that were there as a pup but "go away" in the full grown dog????


No flames please! I'm just trying to understand.

Thanks for that explaination. It helps me to better understand. I know realize why it's so important to check litters before they leave, although not having done that with these two, how should I proceed for now? Spay and place right away or opt for a second opinion?

I would get a 2nd opinion and really get a thorough explanation and recommendation from the ophthalmologist. What one vet may identify as retinal folds, another might actually reveal to be a scar or other non RD occurrence, and would change the breeding recommendation for the animal. Be sure to check the entire litter before any pups leave home, as you might have some puppies in a litter present with retinal folds, but not necessarily all. So, how would you know if your bitch is producing folds if you have not checked all the puppies?

There are some out there that believe all folds ARE retinal dysplasia. I personally am not convinced of this. I ask then, if the presence of any folds indicates RD, why are there not many more incidences of RD, dwarfism, etc. and the supposed effects of breeding RD carriers together? Given many breeders do not CERF their young litters, there are a lot of Labs out there who may have had folds as pup that later go away and never get diagnosed as having had folds. If those pups pass other clearances, it's likely they are bred. I have not heard of a large number of cases of RD and I truly don't think the breed is suffering an epidemic of RD.

From my experiences, I certainly would get a second opinion on your dog with folds and hold onto that individual for the time being. I most definitly would NOT wash one out of my breeding program based on that one ACVO exam as there simply is not enough evidence out there to support the presence of a fold being an indicator of a dog either having RD or being a carrier. JMHO

Thanks to everyone who has offered adivce and information. I will take everything into careful consideration and have these girls looked at again, maybe at Cornell, and take it from there.

fmi on retinal folds/retinal dyaplasia.....

http://www.vmdb.org/dx.html

btw....this is the CERF position on RD and "folds"

http://www.vmdb.org/dx.html

Thanks!

I have been doing some research on the issue of whether all retinal folds are caused by the RD gene. I, myself, have a Ph. D. in cell biology and teach genetics, and I have three ACVO vets cooperating with me, one of whom teaches at the veterinary school in Madison. The other two are highly respected people with many years experience. The type of folds I am studying occur in the lower half of one or both eyes and are few in number, 1-4 folds in one eye. They disappear by the time the dog is 6 months old and cannot be detected even by the person who found them when the dog was a 6-8 week old puppy. All five ACVO vets who have seen one or more of these puppies agree that these are not the kind of folds that are seen in dogs with RD and that they can tell the difference.

When the first folds were found, my regular ACVO vets told me that they wer just puppy folds and not to worry about them, but I became aware of the CERF position that such dogs should not be bred. Being a research scientist myself, I decided to investigate the condition. I have done two breedings of parents, both with folds. Of the 11 puppies produced, none has had skeletal problems or RD, although 3 have had folds. Unfortunately, I have not had many females with the condition since the first litter, in which there were four. I mention this to show that this is not an X-linked trait. As I need to place the resulting puppies as pets, I will not do close inbreeding, so it has been difficult get males and females that are out of the same lineage but not too close. Right now I have no females to continue the study.

Neither recessive nor dominant inheritance explains patterns I am seeing. The gene- if it is a single gene- does seem to be incompletely penetrant, but I still need to do the breedings that would answer this question. I had a breeding in mind to do this, but one of the dogs I was going to use died unexpectedly, which left me without a suitable male. It is not an environmental condition, as I do not find folds in the eyes of the dogs in my regular breeding program, which are raised under the same conditions. I have done several outcrosses into unrelated bloodlines, and the condition does not occur, so I don't think it is dominant. But I can't go much further with the research unless I get another female with folds.

From my experience in this, I believe that there are at least two types of folds in Labradors, but I do not yet have sufficient proof to publish or to convince
CERF of that fact.

Thanks for posting, and thanks for doing the research. Without such research breeders would not know what to look for or how to deal with problems when they do occure. You're work is greatly appreciated, and needed. I hope you are able to continue your experiement and eventally find the answers we're all looking for.

I would get a second opion. I had a litter checked at seven weeks all fine. Kept a pup from that litter had her checked at seven months, there was a question about the pigment of the left eye, not genetic. I had her done at twelve months. Again, fine. Had her done again at twenty four months. The pigment thing again. Nothing to concern myself about. I have a PRA girl, she gets CERFed just like everyone else. She came back clear with the CERF two times, I told Otho. number three, she had PRA and he said she is showing signs. The signs are, night blindness, we were in a dark building when she was checked. I took her for her her forth test, I didn't mention anything about PRA, and she passed her CERF.

It is my understanding, that folds ( RD ) is linked to dwarfism, and if you were to inadvertently breed two dogs who had folds as babies, some of the offspring could be afflicted with dwarfism. It is my understanding that if a pup has folds, it should be placed as a pet, not bred. ( told to me by the opthamologist who examines my dogs/puppies )

Place the pup, not worth the risk. Have any of the littermates been actually CERF'ed?

But thats just my two cents. Good luck.

2nd opinion always a good idea. I would wait 6 months on the Golden, head growth may change the and tighten, however, if the eye is very deeply set, it might not be any different down the road.
Re: the fold
At 13 months, that is not going to disappear. I have spayed and placed at least 2 bitches in 20 years with folds at certification age(18 months-2 years). I guess if a fold is now classified with CERF as Breeders Choice sort of deal, it will come down to your comfort level(and your honesty with stud dog owners in disclosing the information prior to service and then down to your buyers should complications greater than a fold(ie. geographical or complete detachement) occur)).

"Folds" ....breeder's option?

This is the CERF position - "In some breeds, particularly Labrador Retrievers, Samoyeds, and English Springer Spaniels, individuals with retinal folds are NOT given a CERF number."

Time to bring this up again since some people seem to think that folds..."just go away".
NOT!

bdr you know what you're talking about. 7 - 8 weeks is the correct time and folds may hide out but not go away.