To those that feed grain free and have done so for over a year...........................could you share your experience. I have a 7 month old, 3 2yo, 1 4yo breeding female and 2 retired 6-7 year olds................how does this affect pregnant girls or growing pups.................you can e me privately if you would like...............sort of looking for experimental results....Thanks

I am using a 32 protein 16 fat on the 2yo boys with good success..............

I haven't been feeding grain free that long, but I know within a month, my bitch who has had bad teeth had her teeth go back to white. I have great coat on her too. And this is on a working lab, not a show lab.

No experience with pregnant bitches or pups but I had males and females on grain-free for more than a year.
I LOVED it. No allergies, no gunky ears, firmer and less poop, less incidence of diarrhea, better coat and great teeth.
I no longer feed grain free kibble because I switched to RAW. Grain free kibble made me realise what a difference nutrition can make so I went the whole way.
Good luck

We are grain free, and would also love to hear about high protein ratios and puppies as well. My dogs are on Orijen and 40-42% protein.

A vet mentioned puppies and high protein are a no go, but he didn't know why...

Anyone?

Although I feed raw I often have to send the puppies home on kibble. I used to use Orijen but I thought the protein was a bit high. I just switched to Now! and I love it. Grain free but much more reasonable with protein content.

http://www.petcurean.com/

All of my research has showed me protein is not a big factor for puppies, calcium yes...

What is the reason you do not like the high protein content?

Regarding the suitability of high protein foods for pups, see www.dogfoodanalysis.com.

It has a listing of what it considers the top dog foods and that is where most of the grain-free kibbles are listed...in the top list.

They also state at the end of their review that because of the protein content, it may only be suitable for adult dogs, especially in the case of large breeds.

It doesn't explain why.

You don't want large breed pups to grow to fast.

I know Innova EVO doesn't recommend feding their food to puppies....

Protein content DOES NOT have any effect on joint health in puppies and there is a ton of research to show this.
The problem with many grain free foods is not the protein content, it is the calcium content. AAFCO standards for calcium are 1.1% to 2.5% for puppies because research shows that calcium content about 2.5% may increase joint disease in developing puppies. This is because puppies do not have the ability to excrete excess calcium as readily as adult dogs do.
THIS is why many grain-free kibbles are not recommended for puppies, not because of protein content (remember, these are carnivores). Foods such as EVO are not suitable for puppies because of their high calcium content.
Fortunately, Orijen and a couple of other grain-free kibbles are now offering lower calcium foods for puppies, so as long as you are between 1.1% and 2.5%, you will do fine.
Having said that, some kibbles with grains are BELOW AAFCO standards, including some Iams products, so be careful either way.

Sorry but that information is incorrect!I have been feeding raw for 7 years now and it has a ton of bone in it and bones=calcium,and I have never had better orthopedics here! Carnivores not only eat protein they eat bones and lots of them.

This information is correct. I have been a raw feeder for over ten years, way back when Ian Billinghurst wanted us to feed our puppies 85% RMB.
The point that needs to be remembered is that we are talking research on kibbles and synthetic calcium, so although I am comfortable with a relatively high calcium content with raw feeding, the bioavailability is what nature intended, unlike synthetic foods.
I stand by what I said as they apply to kibbles, not real food!

THANK YOU! I was going to say that, but you said it wonderfully! It's NOT the protein, it's the calcium.

Calcium contents:

Orijen puppy 1.6% max.
Orijen lg. breed puppy 1.6% max.
Orijen adult 1.8% max.

Evo sm./lg. bites 3.03%
Evo red meat sm./lg. bites 2.11%

According to our top orthopedic specialist, pups should not get more than 1.3% calcium, preferably closer to 1%. Any time a growing pup shows signs of lameness, his recommendation is a low protein (22-25%) and not too high fat adult food.

The reasons are quite simple: growth rate depends to a certain extent on these two factors and we do not want puppies to grow too quickly. Protein has a positive influence on muscle development, which is beneficial for joint stability. However, rapid growth with a high protein/energy diet can have unhealthy consequences for joint formation. To visualise this, compare the morphology of a sumo wrestler with that of a typical Japanese rice eater.

Nutrition is a fickle science. Not so long ago, the same nutrionists (or their predecessors) were recommending masses of calcium for growing pups - the larger the breeds the more the calcium - until vets and breeders woke up to the disaster. Today, some are recommending high protein. And tomorrow....?

So, it's just the calcium and not the phosphorus also? There was something I read a while ago that stated you had to watch the combination of the two (should not exceed around 2% in total)??

I was feeding Back to Basics for all ages, even puppies. Then my orth. vet said that I should be lowering the calcium. (B T B has 1.3%). When I talked to Back To Basics about it - they said it was more about the ratio of calcium to phos - not the exact level of calcium. So - I talked to a nutritionist who said that newest study shows that calcium should be 0.9 to 1.0 %. About the only puppy food I could find with that % is Eukanuba Large Breed. It also has much fewer calories than the BTB that I was using - so the pups will grow slower also.
The nutrionist also said that protein has gotten a bad rap over the years - that the total amount of calories if more important than keeping the protein level down.

The issue is phosphorus - calcium balance in puppies, not excess calcium.
Calcium to phosphorus ratio should be between 1:1 to 1:2
Muscle meat contains a lot of phosphorus so if you feed a lot of meat based protein you must feed more calcium.
Phosphorus bonds naturally with calcium to form calcium phosphate. It is a natural process in our bodies and they have a strong attraction.
Calcium phosphate is what gives bones and teeth their strength.
If a dog eats too much phosphate and not enough calcium then the body will draw calcium from the dogs bones and cause bone diseases and deformities, poor bone growth, lameness, injuries.

In humans if you eat a diet very high in meat you need a lot of calcium. Too little calcium and you leave yourself open to osteoporosis. Vegetarians do not need very much calcium.

If your dog or puppy is on a meat diet it has a large calcium requirement and high calcium is much much less dangerous than low calcium. There are a couple of studies that have shown excess calcium to cause rapid growth but excess calcium will cause calcium deposits but low calcium is way more dangerous prospect.

If you are really worried and really want to feed grain free kibble consider "Solid Gold - Barking at the Moon". The protein in that kibble is potato protein and the kibble is lower in phosphorus.

But remember phosphorus and calcium are both very important for your growing puppy.

I should have added that my last post that there is a reason that calcium is higher in grain-free and protein based kibble. It is in there for a very important reason because it is needed to balance the additional phosphorus.
It is very dangerous for people to get stuck on not too much calcium for puppies without knowing the reason why.

A friend of mine who breeds Tollers kept her pregnate bitchs on Evo and put the puppies on Evo, too, and has been very pleased with the results. She did send home Innova puppy samples with the puppies rather than the Evo though. I know of someone who did put their 6 month Lab on Evo, again and loved the results.

Here is a good page that lists articles of studies on this subject (Calcium/Phosphorus ratios).

oops, here it is:

http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/131885.html

Thank you everyone for your replies, and sorry to the thread starter for the hijack...

I contacted the food company some time ago (Champion Pet Food Products) and they did mention something about calcium and phospherous, but I have a horrible memory of late, and would have preferred that exchange in writing...

This is an important topic. I have been feeding grain free (Natures Variety Instinct 2.49 calc) since May because of dog food recall issue (pups were 1 year when I started) and all dogs are doing great.

I have been thinking of what I am going to feed for my next litter and would love to stay with grain free (most likely Orijen for pups) so all this info is very helpful.

I have been in touch with a breeder of Labs feeding Orijen to pups, adults and seniors and all are doing great so far.

I contacted Natura Pet regarding Evo for young pups and this was their response (I am sure due to the calcium of 3.03)

"Dear pet lover,

Thank you for contacting us about our products. The EVO is NOT recommend for large or giant breed puppies that will grow to be 75+ lbs at adult weight. We recommend waiting until your pet is close to or at it's adult weight to begin feeding the EVO. At about one year, your Labrador would be ok to eat the EVO but the puppies should not have this. We recommend that the puppies go on to the Innova Large breed puppy formula.

I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to contact me if you need any additional information or if you have any questions.

Veronica Moreno
Natura Pet Products"

I also spoke with a vet via email from Natures Farmacy regarding the grain free foods and he says it is the calcium phosphorous ratio that is important. That it is correct in Evo, NV and Orijen. Below is his opinion.

My question:
"NV Instinct and Evo calc/phos. ratios for
young pups and older? Info on Orijen?"

Vet's Response:

"Yes these levels are not only safe but the Evo is a much better food.

Dr Randy"

Response re: Orijen:

"Patty,

Orijen appears to be a good food. I am concerned about the fish. I only reccomend feeding fish once per month due to the mercury and heavy metal contamination. We don't know the origin of the ingredients, they could be from other nations besides Canada. Evo is all USA.

May I suggest sticking with Evo until more is learned about this promising foodsource.

Dr. Randy"

FYI - Natures Variety is also all USA according to the company

Its difficult to decide what to do when for instance Evo says not to feed to a young pup and a vet says it is safe

I would go with the vets advice. I truly believe he is correct.
I think your reply from the company was from a customer service rep and these companies are all wary of litigation and they know large breed dogs are prone to ortho issues.
Personally I worry more about feeding too much meat in relation to bone to puppies or phosphorus in relation to calcium (which can cause bone density loss and bone loss) than I worry about excess calcium.

I have the same problem....I have been feeding Evo for almost a year.....I have a bitch due this weekend....what do I feed my puppies ??? I called Natura....they told me not to feed the Evo until my pups were at least a year. After weeks of research....I decided to go with Orijen Puppy.....I also am considering Timberwolf Wild and Natural....calcium levels of both are okay. I just hope my puppy buyers can afford the food as it is expensive and hard to find in some areas.

Orijen puppy does not have a fish base, only the adult.

I plan to send my puppy people home with a large back of Orijen puppy, already have them here to send on, after the first bag, which will probably last about 2-3 months, they can decide as to whether to get on the adult or switch. I prefer they stay on the Orijen, but you never know...

Explain to your puppy buyers that you feed less with a grain free food so the cost is really not that much more.

I know with the Nat. Var. it is actually a bit less than my old food. Orijen is more expensive than NV though the bag is 29.7 lbs as opposed to NV at 25.3 lbs.

You feed less with grain free food? I did not know that

Actually, I am feeding about the same quantity, but the kibble is much more calorie dense. Some have had lots of weight gain, or inconsistent BMs when they fed too much. Mine are fine, and actually losing weight with the same amount, quantity wise.

Phew
I fed the same amount of grain free kibble as I had of the grain stuff and found that mine lost fat and gained muscle.
Thanks