Is it something new for some of the larger breeding kennels to be breeding bitches (not boys) on prelims at under 24 months, some as young as 18 months? I am not flaming or trolling, I am asking if there is some news out there I don't know about.

Do they know something the rest of us don't about clearances and maturity in the bitch? I found it odd but as I said... maybe they came across something that some of us aren't aware of. One breeder is a veterinarian so perhaps that person has medical information that most of us don't If so .. please share. I'm curious although I wouldn't feel one of my bitches was mature enough to be bred that young.

Are the OFA ratings the same all of the time on younger bitches as they are on finals for these breeders to have the confidence to breed younger? I am anxious for information regarding this. For example if one of my girls is due to come into season in December at 23 months, is it now safe to breed her prior to her finals based on 14 month prelimins?

Please don't tell me it's not my business, when someone advertises this type of information on their website then it becomes public information. I don't need a lecture. I'm looking for information.

TIA for any non flaming replies.

NO I AM NOT!!!!!!!

then why are you trying to be the breeder police and judging what others do???
It's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS on way or another.
You control YOUR kennel, no one elses.
Get a LIFE!!

Remember that some other clearance registries allow final results younger than OFA does.

OVC 18 months
BVA 12 months (if my memory serves me right)

Dear Troll alert,
I don't see "Anxious" being judgemental, but you sure are. I think you should follow your own advice.

Dear Anxious,
If I were thinking about breeding my girl before she was 2, I'd want to have a prelim as close to that breeding/24 mos. as you feel comfortable with. This is all a personal decision on the breeder's part, as you will be the one selling those pups on that prelim.

You are right ..you are not a troll you are a
BUSYBODY...With a lot of time on your hands...Gee get a life will ya!!

You wrote:
[Is it something new for some of the larger breeding kennels to be breeding bitches (not boys) on prelims at under 24 months, some as young as 18 months?]

Nope, nothing new about it. That has been a practice in many kennels and many countries for MANY years before ours was even a recognized breed The concept of waiting until age 2 (a rather arbitrary calendar age) because the primary orthopedic organization will not give a final report earlier is relatively new. In Canada, the organization that reads orthopedic films certifies at 18 months. In most of the rest of the world, the films are evaluated and reports issued at 12 months.

So.... both historically and in every other country in the world, breeding a Lab bitch on her "second" season is pretty normal. We are the ones that are cautiously out of step - and I prefer that somewhat safer path myself.

yes, breeding on the 2nd or 3rd heat is the norm here.

A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).

*Corley, EA, et al. Reliability of Early Radiographic Evaluation for Canine Hip Dysplasia Obtained from the Standard Ventrodorsal Radiographic Projection. JAVMA. Vol 211, No. 9, November 1997.

That information is readily available on the OFA site and good to know. (here comes the however) However, as a researcher, author for journals, and technology instructor, I have to say that calling an article from ten years ago "recent" is a real stretch For most applications that require research references, anything over 5 years old is considered out of date. OK... so there has not been a lot of recent research and the data is still valid - but can we agree to not call it "recent?"

I have a bitch that her 3rd heat will be a couple of weeks before her 2nd birthday. This bitch is very mature for her age. I have decided to do pre-lim at 22 months and then ago ahead and breed her. I will do finals when she is back in shape. I have said that I would never breed before two, but I do not want a winter litter (than you would say I am breeding Christmas puppies). I like to have my litters when I and the kids are home during the summer. I have another bitch that will fall this way but she will have to wait until 3 years and then maybe she will be mature enough.

Ever bitch is different and every breeder is different. I do think that some people need to worry more about what happens in their own backyard and quit worrring about what everyone else is doing.

Dear Never say never:

I seem to be in the same prediciment. My question is what do you tell puppy buyers? My answer would be the same you wrote here. If they do not want to buy a guarenteed pup with Dam on prelims they can just shop elsewhere.

My other concern would be ok. I breed her. Her finals FAIL. What do you do then???

I am always very honest with my puppy buyers. I tell them that I am doing this litter for myself first and would not do something that I felt was wrong. I also guarantee my puppies. I do not see what difference 2 months makes. If they are still not comfortable than they can go elsewhere, like I said I am doing this litter for myself first.

I am wondering about these people who yell TROLL ALERT each time an uncomfortable ethics question comes up.
Guilty conscience maybe?

I have done prelims at 22 or 23 months and bred the bitch when she came in heat. I have NEVER had a problem with puppy buyers accepting that. Just be honest and explain why you did it. I wouldn't breed a prelim fair. I would do another after she turned 2 years.

I certainly recommend checking the pedigree for any problems. JMHO

The abuse of screaming "Troll Alert" the instant someone disagrees is becoming so ridiculous that it no longer has any credibility.

The minute I see "Troll Alert" posted I think "okay I'm sure it's a good thread being trashed by a Troll".

Nope, just sick and tired of everyone minding everyone elses business!!

Don't you have anything better to do????

What you do is still guarantee the hips! I think one of the reason's for the OFA not to do final's on hips until the age of 2yrs, is because they felt the dogs were not mature enough in bone growth? If you prelim a bitch at 6 months, which some people do and then breed at 18months, which people do then in my opinion you are taking a risk. I know people who have bitches that are 3yrs who have bred them on just prelims and swear they are "Ethical" breeders- DAAA!!!!
So, "what ever floats you boat", if you can feel comfortable and think that you are improving the "LABRADOR" as a whole, great grand. I myself would rather wait to breed until after I have the 2yr. OFA finals

Another question, since OFA is offering a service of re x-ray of dogs after there finals. I think they are charging $15.00 for another evaluation of the hips and elbows. It will not change the current final clearance evaluation. I remember yrs ago when we were taking our dogs in for another x-ray of hips when they were 4yrs old or 6yrs old. There were some in fact that didn't pass. So, feeling safe, do we just take the final's and "run"? and leave it at that?
I know one dog who at age 2yrs was OFA Good and at 5yrs old was dysplastic and this was a bitch who had been bred many times. Just a thought. Maybe OFA wants this done and trying to get us to do it too see if maybe there isn't a change or if I recall when OFA started they wanted Finals on hips at 3yrs.
I know that we can Penn Hip and get results earlier, but many of the puppy buyers have no idea what Penn Hip is and they only know OFA or feel safe with a OFA evaluation.

Sorry Maureen but you will need to take up your technical issue with the OFA, that is a direct quote from THEM not me, "we" can agree whatever we want but thats what THEY are calling it:

http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html

"Don't you have anything better to do????"

Don't YOU? How did you learn in school if you refused to hear about any one's business? Who do you think YOU are to dictate what people should read or respond to?

Thank you for all of your input on this subject. It gives me much to think about.

I appreciate the non/flaming replies. I am not a troll and usually read this board for informational purposes. I am grateful for the shared experiences provided. It is interesting to see what others do when a bitch is close to 2 years of age. I am also honest with my puppy buyers and in complete agreement about that.

I would also be interested in hearing what European and Canadian breeders have to say about clearance ages.

Happy Thanksgiving to the U.S. residents.

It's called the LABRADOR POLICE Only I think this person was just asking a question. I didn't read anything into the post that was slamming any breeders or anything like that. There are allot of new people who aren't sure what too do. What's wrong with that? Well all asked questions at one time about what too do and what not too do! There were no names in the original post

I for one never understand the rush to breed a young female. Even 2 years is such a young dog to me. I'd rather show a while to prove her strengths or do obedience, etc. something. Let them develope some. JMO

I agree with Breeder Two. A bitch under two years old is still just an oversized puppy. Please just enjoy her for a while, let her grow up, do the X-rays when she's two, and breed her when she three. A perfect age IMO.

Your right breeder two! I don't understand the big "Rush" Why can't breeders just wait?
What will happen too these young bitches?

I think some commercial breeders just want to breed them and retire them as early as possible. I read one breeder say just that on here.

see but here goes an innocent question gone wrong. no one asked you to judge those other breeders and they didn't ask you to judge them. We all make decisions that we must live with and feel confident about. Maybe people want to start early b/c they don't want to breed a 6 year old bitch. Maybe they have dog limits in their town and need to place brood bitches if they are ever to create their own labrador line this CENTURY.


This is why everything is labels TROLL anymore. People ask to learn and then it turns into judgement into what others feel is right for THEM not necessarily you

What's wrong with wanting to retire a bitch earlier rather than later?

As far as what you tell your buyers if you breed on pre-lims, an interesting point.

A breeder I know from one of the lists ended up with a large litter from parents with no clearances. The litter actually belonged to a friend/acquaintance who ended up hospitalized, and this person kindly agreed to care for and place the pups.

As this person typically sells pups from parents with OFA and other health clearances, I asked her how potential buyers reacted when they learned these pups didn't have the same heritage. She said most people didn't seem worried about it. I was glad for her, but wondered just how much good our attempts at education of the public actually accomplish.....

I have never;ever bred a bitch under the age of 2. I also feel mental and physical maturity is important being in agreement with Breeder No. 2. This was included in my original posting.

I also feel there is no reason to rush a whelping even if she is finished and moved on to some obedience certifications or titles . Now there could be a special circumstance to breed to a certain stud dog in your country for a temporary time for example but semen can still be shipped from abroad. I can't see any other possible factor to breed a bitch before finals are done.

I have bred after the age of 2 years + 6 months and as late as 3 years + 6 months for her first litter. Breeding a first litter over the age of 4 is something I have not yet done. I found the older my bitch was; for example over age 3; the better her adjustment to raising her pups has been. Then again, I don't want to her to be a maiden bitch at over age 4.

I wanted to know if there were reasons these breeders; (that include a vet) were now breeding at these ages. Their website said they bred on finals only so there was a change in their way of thinking recently it seems. They are now breeding as early as 18 months of age; on prelims as I mentioned in my original posting and I wondered if there was a reason or if new information existed for this practice to change.

Thank you for your comments and advice. That is what I was interested in, not to flame or criticise anyone else.

I'll have to remind Greg of the meaning of "recent" the next time I talk to him

OK Maureen, I will not forget that exchange and be much more careful on my "facts"
By the way, I have an E-mail out to you.

I think this must be a case of "guilty conscience", Gregg.... I meant I would remind Greg Keller that a 10-year old reference is not recent. Actually, it is probably Eddie Dzuik that is responsible for the copy of the website.

life begins at 50




Nov 20th, 2007 - 4:32 PM Re: Breeding bitches prior to finals

yes, breeding on the 2nd or 3rd heat is the norm here.

Okay; now what if the first season is at 18 or 20 months and the bitch cycles every 8 to 10 months? That could bring her to age 3 or more for a first breeding right? Are you against that or would you breed her on a first heat cycle that's delayed?

I also think age 3 or older is a good age for a bitch to whelp a litter for that first time. Physical and mental maturity are important for a succesful whelping. Unless it's done earlier; for extenuating circumstances as I mentioned. That was a situation where a stud dog was near-by on a short term visit from another country why have a young girl whelp too young? In that circumstance you can avoid shipping possibly missing or delayed FEDEX shipments that aren't good quality collections due to circumstance beyond the control of anyone except FEDEX. I find that one of the only reasons to breed a bitch a little younger unless there is new information about prelimins. So far I have not seen that posted.

I am ignoring the accusations of being a busy-body or the troll alert accusations. Why are some of you so judgemental of posters? I did not post to accuse anyone of doing something wrong. I was and am looking for information and thank the people that replied with that or their opinions.

Thank you.

In Canada bitches get final clearances at 18 months and are often bred on the second or third heat.
In the UK final clearances are done at 12 months and they often start breeding the same time.
I have more of an issue of a bitch having 4, 5 or more big litters than breeding a young healthy dog.
JMO

Maybe you should email or phone the folks you mentioned who are breeding bitches on prelims. Ask if there is information you missed out on, or simply why they do it...

Couldn't hurt!

Too Hmmm
You say that final clearances are done on bitches that are 12 months in the UK. Well, if those same bitches were brought over here and OFA'd, how many of them would pass? I'll bet the percentage is small.
I know allot of breeders that have brought bitches and dogs over here from England and guess what, they didn't pass there OFA's. Also, know of a breeder that went to England to buy labradors, did the OFA's there, sent them too OFA and they didn't pass, so they didn't bring anything back with them.
That isn't a good example of why to breed a young bitch on prelims.

You are correct Maureen, guilty of a poor choice of words.

Quite a few people in europe who have had clearances done at one year and then repeated a year or two later have seen that the same dog would not have passed based on the follow up xray.

I agree that the European system is not ideal but in the UK it is not a pass or fail but a grade ... so much like OFA prelims you can decide how much it may go off that grade or not. Buyer beware as they say.
I think the Canadian OVC rating is harder and is a straight pass or fail. I know Canadian breeders who have failed OVC but gotten an OFA fair or better. I would be more comfortable with a result from an 18 month old than a 12 month old and I am more comfortable with an OVC (canadian) pass at 18 months than an OFA fair at 2 years.
JMO and we all have our own comfort levels.

It does not matter that they pass at 1 year or 18 months, we are just saying they are still a puppy. Do something worth while with them. Let them just be a dog for a year or so, not just a dog for breeding. Remember we love this breed and its wellfare. Wish our dogs could be in charge of us for just one year.
Wonder if they would do to us what we put them through.

Unquestionably, the very best mother I ever had was one year old. Well, you guessed! The breeding was not my idea. As a matter of fact I had no idea the breeding had taken place. As luck would have it, she had PennHIP scores that put her in the 90th percentile. The OFA and their magic number - 24 months - are not the final word. There are many such numbers out there. Monthly heartworm is another one. Spayed at 6 months is another. A little common sense is called for.