I will start off saying I am not a "Troll" so "Troll Alert"...please troll else where.

I just want to get an opinion of others on my situation. I have a lovely young girl that turned two earlier this year. We just did her final OFA's and hips were excellent. When my vet went over the elbow films with me he told me they would likely be graded a 1 because they were not as crisp. They did come back a Grade 1. This dog has never been lame a day, in talking with my vet, his recommendation was to not rule her out of a breeding program but to be selective. I spoke with another breeder friend and was told the same thing.

When I look at the bigger picture behind this girl...her sire and his three siblings that were evaluated all passed hips and elbows. Her dam had 4 siblings that were evaluated and again all passed hips and elbows. My girls littermate also passed hips and elbows. Other offspring of my girls dam (bred to other dogs) that were evaluated have passed both hips and elbows. My girls sire is relatively young yet, but he does have another daughter from a different breeding that also recently passed both hips and elbows.

We had not planned to breed her for another 12 mos or so as we would like to try to show her a bit more. I had thought maybe I would re-xray again in 12 mos and see if there were any more changes and then make a decision.

Any other long term breeders out there have advice or experience they would like to share? What do you take into consideration when making decisions such as these?

Thank you.

If I were in your shoes, and I have been, I would be thrilled there are no clinical signs and she is going to be a wonderful pet.

I believe we do these clearances for a reason ... so we can breed CLEAR dogs. That doesn't mean genotypically, of course, as we can't know that but phenotypically. That's all we can base our decisions on ... what we can see.

I just don't believe that every dog needs to be bred. In order to maintain the breed we need to breed those that look like Labs, have the "expected" Lab temperaments and are as healthy as they can be. That means that any anomaly will toss it out of the gene pool.

Yes, the siblings, parents, second cousins three times removed, are all clear with excellent hips but they aren't the ones you're breeding. Chances are they are being bred already based on the fact they had their clearances done in the first place.

I realize my opinion is probably in the minority but it's what I can live with. That's all each of us can do ... breed within our comfort levels.

Just because she came back grade 1 does NOT mean she would be lame now. The question to ask yourself is....If you breed this female someday, Would you keep a puppy out of the litter? and Possibly go thru this same problem all over again with the new pup?

I would have fun with her in the show ring, then spay her and put her in obedience ring.

It's hard to spay or neuter a dog that we love, and is gorgeous besides, but it's the only "right" answer. Reading your post, it seems that you knew the answer before you asked the question. There are enough problems that we get when we breed cleared dogs without taking the chance. I have been in your shoes, and have practiced what I preach.

I bred two bitches with different pedigrees to a stud dog that had all of his clearances, but was sired by a dog that had one elbow that didn't pass. Even thought the stud dog that I bred to had his clearances, I ended up with one puppy from each of the bitches that had bad elbows. So it may not come back to haunt you in the first generation, but will get you somewhere down the road. One wonderful pet owner ended up spending thousands of dollars for surgery, and the dog is still lame.

Anyway, there will be other gorgeous ones down the road, that you will feel pride when you breed them, and you will not have to worry (as much!) what they may produce. You will have a clear conscience when you sell your puppies, knowing that you did everything you could to help to produce the best dogs possible. You sound like someone who is really trying to do the right thing. I hope you make the right decision. Good luck to you and I mean that sincerely.

Sorry... I cannot disagree more than with the two posts above.

My wife was a surgical nurse for a canine orthopedic surgeon who also read x-rays for GDC. Many years ago I had this same discussion with him as I was adamant about not breeding clear dogs in no uncertain circumstances. He told me to stop looking through rose colored glasses and evaluate the data in front of me.

His thoughts were the following:

If he had a choice to breed to (1) a dog that had clear hips and clear elbows, but the parents, siblings etc. had horrible clearance statistics and (2) a dysplastic dog where all parents and siblings were clear from dysplasia ... he would breed to the dysplastic dog every time. His reason is that you have a better chance of getting healthy dogs given the wide gene pool and clearance track record of the dog with bad hips. His misfortune could just be a fluke.

I, myself, was appalled at first and it took some major convincing, but given his expertise and standing in the veterinary community I finally caved in and agreed with the theory and results placed before me.

In the end, however, it all boils down to what you are comfortable with. In fact, we are still holding on to frozen semen from a dog that didn't clear one hip. We pay the annual fees to retain it in storage. The reason being is that this dog possessed all of the qualities we seek in our breeding program. In my opinion, he is a stunning representation of our breed. It is unfortunate he didn’t pass. The good news is all of his surrounding family members did. To this day there are only a few stud dogs I will use given the qualities we seek for our bitches. Everyone says there are so many of them out there that are clear. That is true if you don’t care who you breed your bitch to!

The fact remains we could go to a dog that has all of his clearances... and we do. However, not all stud dogs are for our girls. Not all stud dogs have the qualities we seek. There may be that one bitch that this semen is perfect for. And we will use it if the case can be made. Besides, it is our choice not anyone elses. And I for one am not afraid to state it. You can flame all you want, however, I won't pay attention as it is my right. Just as it is your right. And I have been in this sport for many many years and am not afrais what people say. They are going to talk anyway!

So in the end if this girl is everything you seek in a bitch for your breeding program and all of her relatives up, down, and sideways are clean. You have an excellent chance that nothing will ever come out of it. If something crops up, deal with it then and take it as a learning experience.

Take it from experience... We have bred 2 OFA excellent hips with OFA clear elbows and ended up with 5 out of 7 puppies that either had hip or elbow problems. There is no guarantee that breeding clear to clear is safe. There just isn’t!

My final advice ... Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. You will regret it! DO what you want to do. It is your breeding program not the forums!

Not afraid to sign my name!
Michael Silva
Shadowbrook Labradors

If I liked the dog well enough, I would do her again. I had one that didn't pass at 22 months. I had her re-x rayed and she passed. I have had no elbow issues with any of her get.

Can I hear an AMEN !!! To Michael's post
Kudos to you for saying it
Bridget

Bridget

I second that.

AMEN!!!!

So are all you who breed only "clear" dogs ignoring the fact that even by doing so and not looking at the big picture you will still get a breed average of about 17-25% elbow dysplasia.Does that mean you will spay or neuter your dogs if they only produce one pup in litter that has ED???

Two things that have already been said I was thinking the same, which were: I think you answered your question AND don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

It is your decision.

I know of stud dogs with grade 1 that are being used, their owners are open and honest about it, but only long time breeders are using them because they know that not using them may be wasting excellent genes.

People keep asking advice to long time breeders because of their wisdom and success, well it's about time newbies listened.

Question: what is currently the worst problem with our Labradors?
Answer: Elbow Dysplasia

any more questions?

Amen to that comment Bess...I aggree with you 100%!

Sorry, but I disagree again ... Elbow dysplasia is only one factor and maybe not the biggest problem. A few come to mind ...

Hmmm.... TVD, Epilepsy, hock dysplasia, pets in the show ring, naive breeders, people who are afraid to identify themselves when standing up for what they believe in for our breed, breeders who don't tell all about their own lines, bad fronts, no rears, NO TYPE, the list goes on and on ...

When you have experienced enough heartache to throw in the towel, yet you remain committed to this breed then maybe you can give a two word answer.

Just my opinion and there is NOTHING humble about it!

the MOST COMMON problem IS elbows according to everyone I know and my own opinion (25+ years).

I think Michael said it best, this is your decision, not the forums. The first years folks have a tendency of looking at everything in black and white. After a few more years, gray starts to creep in and pretty soon most of it is in various shades of gray.
Diagnosing a Grade 1 elbow can be controversial at best by the best ortho specialists. I can't tell you what you should do, only you can decide. I can tell you this, there are quite a few Grade 1 elbow Labs out there, retired, and never limped a day in their life.

"pets in the show ring, people who are afraid to identify themselves when standing up for what they believe in for our breed, bad fronts, no rears, NO TYPE"

These are huge health issue in the Labrador breed ATM.

Question: what is currently the worst problem with our Labradors?
Answer: Elbow Dysplasia

any more questions?


Yes. What about TVD?

The most common PROBLEM that may be verbalized. It might not be the most common given what is shoved under the carpet and not talked about. Let's not focus on one problem ... as, unfortunately, there are many in our breed. That is what makes the Labrador so challenging and the triumphs so sweet!

Again, who are we to tell "Pondering" what to do or not to. That is unless we are partners and are sleeping next to them at night.

This is a single breeder's decision; one that should not come to a public forum. If you let others decide your breeding program it is time to spay and neuter all your dogs and place them as pets. The job as a breeder is to create what is yours in this breed; not what is decided by others.

And I would like to know...Does 37 years trump 25+? Just curious...

Just because one has 25 or 37 years it does not make them any wiser or smarter than one with 2, 5, 10. It just depends on how credible and trustworthy you are and how honorable you are with others and our breed.

From someone who signs their last name...
Michael A Silva

My personal opinion is watching dogs in the ring with obviously such poor movement, their gait which goes to their overall construction, they can't move well enough to get out of their own way but because they have "Cleared" they are supposed to offer more quality to the gene pool????
I strongly believe in form and function and I am so appalled at so many of the dogs I see that have such bad movement. Do I think these dogs will be better genetically speaking? No! Because if they can't move correctly then their overall structure isn't correct.
Many years ago my mentor told me how many breeders kept their dogs very "sheltered" so as to attain a better orthopedic rating, yet they didn't hold up as adults. We let our dogs be dogs and don't coddle them, they run and play and run into each other and I feel this is a better indicator of the dogs true joint picture than a dog who is allowed minimal exercise that overprotects the joints but gives a false impression of their real orthopedic health.
I've ridden for many years (since I could stand) and you know when it is not right if you have to ride it, you learn what a difference it makes.... So the elbows might be clear but the shoulders and hocks aren't sound is that better???????

We started the orthopedic issues in this breed many generations ago when we bred our dogs for looks and we bred dogs that were not sound.
Way back we did not do hip and elbow clearances we bred a dog if they looked good, were healthy and sound. When we ignored the soundness and added weight and bone and cared more about how the dog looked than it could do in the field we got these ortho issues.
Many field breeders still do not do hip and elbow clearances but they only breed sound dogs because they are no good in the field otherwise and they do not have the ortho issues show labs have. Their problem is they have dogs that don't always look like labradors but that is another story :)

You can make exceptions in exceptional circumstances if you are careful and you know what you are dealing with. But we have to go back to breeding sound dogs again (and maybe field breeders will go back to breeding labs that look like labs!)

Just my opinion
Jane

Well said Michael! No truer words could have been said - I agree wholeheartedly!

There are no perfect dogs no matter how hard we might try to get there. I have moved dogs on that came up short and there are 2 in particular that to this day I deeply regret it... The problems looked too big at the time for me to look past them. Now.., the lines were too valuable to have not bred them and kept puppies back out of. Those lines would have worked beautifully in what I currently have here..., but it is a mistake that I unfortunately can not undo... Many short-comings and faults no matter how glaringly obvious they are can for the most part be dealt with. Not to say that there are not certain issue's that I simply will not run on - there are. But I have since learned not to be so hasty in my decision, no matter how right it feels at the time, because emotions can be your undoing...

If researching and the lines for the most part are sound (of course there will be things that pop-up here and there), then I personally would not be overly concerned with grade 1's. I am simply telling you from personal experiences in hopes that you do not end up with regrets that can never be undone... But despite it all, ultimately this is your breeding program and only you know what you can live with, making this a decision that only you can make.

Very interesting and what are the stats on breeding two OFA-Good hips and ending up with more then one puppy in the litter with HD?

I'll take a Grade 1 Elbow any day over some other orthopedic problems. We've been living with our Grade 1 Lab for 9 years now and she has better movement than dog who have passed ofa with Excellent and clear elbows.

How about some of you breeders try breeding for better rear ends and stifles so your puppy buyers don't have to shell out $2000 or more on orthopedic surgery. What about the pain the dog is in and the long recuperation period ??

My point is that Elbows is just one little problem in the bigger picture of breeding for soundess. I don't like elbow problems but it doesn't scare me like some of these other genetic issues in our breed.

I do think many breeder keep problems with their own dogs well hidden so many don't hear about it as much as Elbow problems.

I've had more torn out cruciate problems in the past few years, breeding from clear sire and dam with every health clearance possible. Yes, I did dare breed our bitch with a grade 1 elbows one time and all the pups grew up to be just fine orthopedically. Our grade 1 dog is old now and has never had any cruciate problems. The dog is very muscular and thick in the rear, with awesome rear drive.

Our gene pool would be incredibly small if we tossed out all our breeding stock that didn't pass an elbow or an eye cerf but with Breeder's option. Do you breed a dog with Epilepsy or TVD...of course not.

Yes but how many are owning up to TVD or epilepsy?
If you are a relative newbie like me, shopping for stud dogs, how do you really know what is behind what you are using. It is all smoke and mirrors and hard to know.

Well said Michael! I have a testimonial about one of my Champions that had his OFA-Elbow finals done at 2yrs. His hips were OFA-Excellent and elbows came back Grade 1. Well, the vet that did the x-ray is very well known in the vet community and OFA. If you want to know who it is you can email me private.
But, there was just a small spot on the elbow and this vet knew that the OFA wouldn't pass it, because the comment made was that if they don't know what it is they will give you a Grade 1. The vet said to re-do the elbow in 6 months. Well, the x-ray was redone on the elbow and we got a elbow # on the dog! I am very sceptic with OFA-elbows now. I don't believe there is enough backup data in the OFA or should I say history of elbow dysplasia. Since you have been in the breed for so many years you know what it was like when they started OFA-with hip evaluations. There were allot of dogs that didn't pass and do we really know too this day if they should have?
I was also told that one of the Orthopedic/Radiologist at Wis.State University said that dogs that were failed for elbow dysplasia, when there was a autopsy done on the elbow, nothing would show up, they were clean. So, we all know that allot of these dogs we have are failing and they are done by digital x-rays. Yes, you can see more, but is "more" better or what are they seeing, that they think is elbow dysplasia Grade1. This is just my two cents on the issue and yes you are right in what you say and I applaud you! Thank You

It is tough when you are new and starting out. Most breeders won't share their knowldege of what dog produces what etc until they get to know you well or you co-own a dog with them. If you join a Labrador club you will get an ear full, some truths and some rumors and lies.

There is no easy way to learn hundreds upon hundreds of pedigrees when you first start putting together a breeding. That is where having a trusted mentor comes in handy.

I've been at this hobby 12 years and will find out things about the pedigree after the breeding was done and puppies born. I think it is called Lying by Omission. Sometimes it feels like you are always the last one to find out genetic problems in the pedigree of the bitch you purchased or the stud dog you used.

Very frustrating at times but all one can do is continue with the researching of pedigrees and don't rush into any one breeding until you are satisfied all your questions have been truthfully answered.You have to be willing to accept that your own bitch could be at fault for producing something bad and not always blame the stud dog. The more you broaden your outlook and think outside of black and white areas, the more you will learn as a breeder.

Ok, for the last month or so, all I have read about is TVD. Were is all this TVD???? I have talked to allot of breeders on the east coast, midwest the south and non of us have heard of any dogs that have it or puppies that have it or dogs that are "Carriers".
Want to give us a clue were these dogs are and how do we find out about them to stay away from them????

Interesting how stories change to suite someone's case in point...
Also interesting about the Excellent

Denial is major downfall for this breed...

Answer to no name, so your at it again and you have no idea who I'm talking about. It isn't the dog you are thinking of, the one your mentor bred.So, go back to your cave and mind your own business! You have failed again in tearing me down! Go clean your own kennel of "Show Dogs".

Denial, what are you talking about????? This was a good question. What is your problem????
I'll ask again, were are all the dogs with TVD?? If I knew the answer I wouldn't be asking it-Right!

I may be "at it again" briefly, but you have never stopped! Hahahaha!
I have better things to do than worry about YOU!...Buh Bye!

I have stopped and I only wish you happyness and everything good in this life, also Happy Thanksgiving!

Glad to hear it! Maybe we can put this thing to rest once and for all then.
Happy Thanksgiving to you too...
How about wishing me some majors this weekend to go with my happiness?! LOL!!

I have no problem putting this thing behind us. I hope you get "all the Major's this weekend"!!!
If that doesn't happen, will you settle with a reserve? Go kick butt!!!! Go into the ring like you own it!!!

Yes but how many are owning up to TVD or epilepsy?
If you are a relative newbie like me, shopping for stud dogs, how do you really know what is behind what you are using. It is all smoke and mirrors and hard to know.


Pedigree research will help you. Find people who earn your trust that will give you insite into what lines, dogs or certain kennels have TVD or Seizures and stay away from them in a pedigree especially with one or more than one of them in the pedigree

Sarcastically but realistically, don't dare ever mention the truth you find out on a public board that a certain dog or bitch throws any of these horrid diseases. Even your best friends will be furious. The troll alert Want To Be's scream those words the minute someone mentions a subject they don't want discussed.

You can learn who and what to stay away from that is known to carry TVD and more. The other problem is we don't know enough yet. I hope in our lifetime we have a test as good as Optigen but done for TVD or seizures.

" Most breeders won't share their knowldege of what dog produces what etc until they get to know you well or you co-own a dog with them."

What a shame and I think dishonest. Like the previous poster said "it's all smoke and mirrors". Similar to looking at a used car and the owner denying it has had previous accidents. Money motivated behavior.

We have a 10 year old bitch that had one Grade 1 elbow and never any clinical signs. Our orth. vet said that it might be nothing. He offered to go in and look at the small spot on the x-ray that we were seeing. We decided to go ahead and breed her right away - to see if she passed any bad elbows. Her hips were fine. On the first litter - she had one bitch that passed hips and elbows and a male that had 2 grade ones. We put him in a pet home. The bitch we kept went on to have 2 litters - not one bad elbow that we know of. The original bitch was bred again and produced a Ch. bitch that was hip and elbow cleared and one girl that had 2 grade ones, which was in an obedience home and not bred. I think that if she is a nice bitch - then take a chance and maybe work your way out of the elbow genes.

"How common is TVD?"

When my bitch was first diagnosed with TVD about 7 or 8 years ago, it seemed like the PRA frenzy all over again. People were all panicky over the fact that we now had "NEW" disease in our breed and dogs were just dropping dead from it. I was very open about my girl's diagnosis. Many breeders came to me and we discussed this disease. We are still talking about it years later. The good news is: It's really NOT as common nor as deadly as first thought! In all actuallity it's probably been around for many many decades and young dogs that dropped dead suddenly were either not neocropsied or the findings were missed. It's only been in recent years that we've developed the tests for TVD and have fine tuned the standards of what constitutes normal heart valve functions. When my bitch was first diagnosed it was close to the time that TVD was first "discovered" in a prominent West Coast dog after several of his puppies died suddenly at a young age. Breeders began testing close relatives of this dog and finding more and more cases of TVD. Because the prognosis of TVD affected dogs were unknown at the time, many breeders would put down 8 week old affected puppies. My bitch was initially diagnosed with severe TVD and given 8 years. I recently spoke to another Cardiologist this year and told him my "severe" bitch was almost 10 and he laughed and said well I think we can safely downgrade her to just moderate then. Her sire was affected and later his diagnosis was downgraded too. He lived to be 10 1/2 years and passed away from something totally unrelated to TVD. So these two dogs have out lived their given time spans and have lived long lives. I have known of many others too that are up in their golden years doing well. After speaking to those running the heart clinic, I had asked if they are seeing a lot of TVD and they said NO.
Another thing is is if you are not looking for it, chances are you may not find it. Well at least not for awhile. Just as with hip/elbow dysplasia, if you are not checking because your dogs get along just fine or never had a problem, you are just burying your head in the sand. I think we would all be surprised to learn just how widespread TVD is in our breed. I collected many pedigrees over the years and while I can identify the carriers in most of the pedigrees, every now and then I get one that just leaves me scratching my head But in a mild form, we will never know and it will just go from one generation to the next and at some point be severe enough to show clinic signs of the disease.

JMHO,

Dianne

Lets talk about structure- elbows,
A deeper yet, simpler way to look at things.
If we can all breed a correct Labrador ... The whole picture. Structure for one .We will see many bad
elbows go out the door. Strong rear ends as well as shoulder conformation are the key ingredient. They both help hold up the entire body. The rib cage holds the front and rear together that sits on legs,then elbows, then the wrist, and last the foot.Oh and dont forget the toes. The rear the two thighs,knee, the canan bone, the hock and foot and toes. I think Ive given a picture.
You can take it further.
Strong pads on the bottom of the feet,well cushion bones( fat,muscle,coat), protect the dog from injuries, bad climates conditons, or resting a tired body on a hard floor.
I just pointed out why or what we need to design the labrador to do it job and grow and stay healthy. Breeding dogs is a study and art. One needs a good eye and breed with science of the specific breed.
knowing what is behind each line you breed to and whether the one risk ways out the other.HMMMMMMMM, do I want Hip displaysia or Cateracts? You have to sometimes choose, the lesser of the two evils. One bad elbow or TVD? We will never breed a perfect dog much less a perfectly clean line. Just breed what is better for you breeding program. I might add, breedings who feel comfortable about breeding a dog with out perfect clearences knows and has breed specific lines for MANY years. This is not for someone who has breed for a short period of time or not many litter of a certain line. That would be mad science and very dangerous.JMO

Well, I guess my experience has been quite different. I do have a boy with TVD, and when I have spoken to Cardiologists they have all told me that TVD is rampant in Labradors and they are shocked by the Labrador breeders that think it is no big deal. All 3 of these Vets have been amazed that siblings and parents of the TVD affected dogs are bred on a regular basis as long as they are not affected themselves. I have taken a long hard look at my boys pedigree and although we "think" we know where the problem came from, I will steer clear of any dogs in this pedigree until the DNA test is available to pinpoint it. My thinking may be narrow minded to some, but for me, it is the right choice.
Sheila

Reading this forum today, I thought many of the forum members would benefit from reading "Reaching for the Stars" (Formerly titled Advanced Labrador Breeding *by Mary Roslin Williams* In this book, she analyzes in detail what qualities make a good breeder and the problems they have in reaching the top of their field.

When I was a novice breeder (by her definition) I purchased the book. Of course I identified myself further up the scale than I really was, and as I continued my journey in Labradors, I downgraded my position within her analysis several times. The more I learned, the more I realized I had not "arrived" at a specific stage. The journey to knowing and realization is a journey that we must make on our own, and it is not we who determine when we have arrived at that final stage. Those who think they have, have not, those who have, don't think they have. Those who have arrived at the fifth stage need no introduction. You all know them, and there are *very* few of them in the world. The rest of us follow, and few of us will arrive.... but the future fifth stagers never stop trying and learning.

If I learned anything from her book, it was *self* evaluation.

Dian <--- still growing, still learning, still trying!

BRAVO for your honesty Sheila & thanks for your insight. I wish it was different but I think your vets may be right.
We should all be contributing to the research for a test.
Lucy

I don't have anything to add, other than THIS is the type of thread I love this board for.
Apart from a couple of little arguements, this has been a well thought out and educational thread from all sides.
Good work guys

Thank you!

Also the reason we see more problems coming up with elbows...More people are testing and revealing the outcome. Optigen test are defined and we know where to go to breed safely.Hips have been tested for a long time and we keep good breeding stock from those lines and strengthen on them. I think the people who use short cuts ( only breeding to a1 or excellent hips) are only slowing down a accurate percentage to what the total of dogs that are effected or failed in hips vs. the passing and clearences of dogs. I guess it is better to use take the short cut, then to not test at all. Something to think about. Saying that I will not breed to or stud a dog that doesnt have the same clearances as my dogs. I feel I can at least keep a accurate percentages on my own breeding program/puppies. JMO

oops. I just re-read my post. Freud at work there. Mary Roslin Williams did not define *five* stages, she defined *seven*.
Beginner
Learner
Novice
Everlasting Novice
middle-range
Good breeder
Top breeder

I tend to lump the first three together in my mind, and forget she separated them (and rightly so).

:-)
Di

I can totally understand your feelings towards TVD, Sheila, as mine were exactly the same when my girl was first diagnosed with TVD! HOW DARE THOSE BREEDERS CONTINUE BREEDING THOSE DIRTY LINES WITH TVD! RIGHT?? But over the years, I've stepped back, watched, listened and took a look at the WHOLE picture. I've still seen a lot more hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, poor fronts, lack of type, etc etc. in the breed. While it is unfortunate that certain lines seem more prevelant for producing TVD (and maybe they are more prevelant because THOSE breeders ARE checking the lines for it) happen to be the typiest lines available, I do not think it is fair to throw the baby out with the bath water! These dogs are producing outstanding puppies and I am not hearing of their offspring "just dropping" from TVD. How many pet puppies do we place that may develop mild hip or elbow dysplasia that are never symptomatic? Are never xrayed? Same with TVD, you never know if a dog is mildly affected. In fact, very few dogs just drop dead from TVD as most cases are just mild to moderate. That is why I beleive that it has been in our breed for quite some time. I just see testing for TVD (by ECG/w doppler) as just another test to pass before breeding now. As I mentioned previously, if ALL breeders tested for TVD, I bet we'd be surprised at just how widespread it is our gene pool. However at this point, it is easier to point fingers at the few lines known to have produced it, say I'll just be safe and stay away from them and then I will not have to test the rest of my lines. If we want to get a truer picture of just how "rampant" this is in our breeder, WE ALL NEED TO BE TESTING!

Believe me Sheila, I know where you are coming from. It's quite shocking when you get your first TVD dog. But as my Truly has proved to me, TVD has hardly compromised her life as once thought. She's a happy dog, will be 10 years old in less than 2 weeks and though she never contributed to my breeding program she's contributed much to my life. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving,

Just a few things to consider,

Dianne

The cardiologists I have spoken with all agree with what you posted, Shiela.
"when I have spoken to Cardiologists they have all told me that TVD is rampant in Labradors and they are shocked by the Labrador breeders that think it is no big deal. All 3 of these Vets have been amazed that siblings and parents of the TVD affected dogs are bred on a regular basis as long as they are not affected themselves."

If people keep breeding these dogs, the problem will only spread more and more into the gene pool. Why don't the ones who have been breeding these dogs for years and years pony up the big bucks to fund the research?

I try not to judge others and give them the benefit of the doubt but I do wonder why anyone would linebreed on a dog known to produce it, over and over again.

I feel terrible saying this as I am not a lab nazi: I know it is their business and I can choose to use their dogs or stay away. But at the same time, I have this awful feeling that sooner or later I will not be able to avoid it as it will permeate into most of the pedigrees and that is not responsible. I know, I know, mind my own business, and I try, but at the same time I am very worried. This is not PRA...dogs do not die of PRA. This is something with a much trickier mode of inheritance and a much deadlier prognosis.

We get too caught up in winning and it can turn our heads away from what is right.

You seem more privy to info regarding those lines with TVD. As a bitch owner, I feel that I am breeding in the dark as I don't know of anyone who would say gee, the sibling of my stud dog has TVD, or my stud dog has produced it. I have heard of certain dogs producing it, but does that mean that ALL dogs related to that dog are suspect?

TVD worries me more than other issues, and yes, I've heard of young dog dying with TVD.

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Replying to:

I can totally understand your feelings towards TVD, Sheila, as mine were exactly the same when my girl was first diagnosed with TVD! HOW DARE THOSE BREEDERS CONTINUE BREEDING THOSE DIRTY LINES WITH TVD! RIGHT?? But over the years, I've stepped back, watched, listened and took a look at the WHOLE picture. I've still seen a lot more hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, poor fronts, lack of type, etc etc. in the breed. While it is unfortunate that certain lines seem more prevelant for producing TVD (and maybe they are more prevelant because THOSE breeders ARE checking the lines for it) happen to be the typiest lines available, I do not think it is fair to throw the baby out with the bath water! These dogs are producing outstanding puppies and I am not hearing of their offspring "just dropping" from TVD. How many pet puppies do we place that may develop mild hip or elbow dysplasia that are never symptomatic? Are never xrayed? Same with TVD, you never know if a dog is mildly affected. In fact, very few dogs just drop dead from TVD as most cases are just mild to moderate. That is why I beleive that it has been in our breed for quite some time. I just see testing for TVD (by ECG/w doppler) as just another test to pass before breeding now. As I mentioned previously, if ALL breeders tested for TVD, I bet we'd be surprised at just how widespread it is our gene pool. However at this point, it is easier to point fingers at the few lines known to have produced it, say I'll just be safe and stay away from them and then I will not have to test the rest of my lines. If we want to get a truer picture of just how "rampant" this is in our breeder, WE ALL NEED TO BE TESTING!

Believe me Sheila, I know where you are coming from. It's quite shocking when you get your first TVD dog. But as my Truly has proved to me, TVD has hardly compromised her life as once thought. She's a happy dog, will be 10 years old in less than 2 weeks and though she never contributed to my breeding program she's contributed much to my life. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving,

Just a few things to consider,

Dianne

The message you guys seem to be missing is this: TVD has been found, at least in Dr. Wright's research, in 12 *different* lines (and those were just the ones that were submitted to her). HOW MANY OTHER LINES IS IT IN???? You guys are so quick to say it's NOT in my lines so all those who are breeding, line breeding and inbreeding on known TVD are doing the breed a disservice. Well how about those of you who are NOT testing YOUR lines??? Clear by ausciltation is NOT clear of TVD!! If you are not looking for it, you will probably NOT find it unless by some fluke as it was found by in the first place. And before you say I've tested some of my dogs and haven't found a problem, I'll say this, most of the dogs from the known producing lines that are tested are also tested clear of the disease. How many more have gone into pet homes that haven't been tested? A dog with mild TVD will never show symptoms.

Believe me, I've seen enough pedigrees of affected dogs to know that it is not just ONE line of Labradors. But you all are high fiving yourselves for being consciencious enough to stay away from certain lines while blindly going into others. Well, that is your choice. Just don't condemn others who have the wider picture in their mind to see the whole dog and don't complain when their gorgeous dogs continue winning because they chose to maintain type while working to reduce the problems within the line.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

And that's JMHO,

Dianne

But isn't it irresponsible to double, triple, quadruple, etc. on known producers of TVD? The first case of TVD I heard of was about ten years ago. Dead puppy, then more dead puppies...the people kept breeding the daylights out of those dogs...and are still doing it.
I don't think it makes sense. I also think you can be careful in selecting dogs for breeding without increasing the potential for affected dogs and dead puppies. There is plenty of type and quality without concentrating on known tvd lines.

"Is it irresponsible to triple, quadruple, etc on known producers?"

It really depends and this is where knowing who and what the offspring of those producers produced themselves. This is where those who are NOT in the know like to sit back and JUDGE those breeder who have chosen to do this type of breeding. Remember how TVD is inherited? It's an incomplete dominant gene so only ONE parent has to have it to pass it on. Not everyone of their puppies will inherit that gene either expressed or as an incomplete penetrance. So eventhough there is a known producer in the background, chances are about 50/50 that the offspring may or may not have the gene. That is why we don't see it that often. Some dogs, however, seem to produce more affected offspring than others and some seem to produce more severe forms than others.

So I would say for those breeders who have linebred on known producers, that is their choice and I am sure they made that choice with the knowledge they have from testing their dogs, their litters and knowing what has been produced. Because TVD is NOT recessive, linebreeding does NOT increase the chances of it popping up. You can get it simply by breeding to one dog that carries the dominant gene for it.

A very well known stud dog that was used world wide, contributed tremendously to this breed, sired thousands upon thousands of puppies did produce several cases of TVD. Should this dog have been removed from our gene pool because he had such an tremendous impact on our breed? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! This is where I've had to reflect back, look at the bigger picture myself and actually change my own opinion on stuff like TVD. We do need to make informed choices, but we shouldn't go around alienating ourselves from those who have the knowledge about such issue we need to learn more about.

Dianne

Dianne, I do see what you are saying.
The 'better the devil you know' approach is absolutely the right way to go here.
Yes, you can bring TVD into your lines without knowing it and dogs with producers behind them shouldn't be eliminated from the gene pool, but that doesn't justify linebreeding on a producer, does it?
Why go looking for it

We should look at the siblings of our dogs and bitches. That will tell us what is in our lines. If we know that a sibling has TVD then maybe we should not promote a stud dog out of that litter.

Speaking of TVD; I often see a pedigree that has known TVD producers a few generations back on both sides, this happens to be a top winning labrador . Then you see the owner breed to a different line that is also known for producing TVD. When the pups don't pass OFA Cardiac they do it over and over again to try to get a pass. WHY? They know what they did wrong! Then the siblings of this affected dog are bred and someone must be holding their breath. It shows up in the sibling's pups too. When will people learn not to breed to also affected lines or take the bitch or dog out of their breeding program until there is a more definitive test for TVD? Just because the dog or bitch is top winning does not mean their pups are healthy, at that point top winning means NOTHING!

TVD is not ED or HD, the pups or older get can drop dead at any time.

"So I would say for those breeders who have linebred on known producers, that is their choice and I am sure they made that choice with the knowledge they have from testing their dogs, their litters and knowing what has been produced. Because TVD is NOT recessive, linebreeding does NOT increase the chances of it popping up."

But if both parents carry it, doesn't it increase the number of affected puppies? And if that is true, then having TVD behind both parents in a pedigree would statistically increase the risk, wouldn't it?

"It really depends and this is where knowing who and what the offspring of those producers produced themselves. This is where those who are NOT in the know like to sit back and JUDGE those breeder who have chosen to do this type of breeding."

But these breeders draw attention to themselves not through the pedigrees, but from selling affected dogs. Unfortunately, we are reliant on open lines of communication and you know that doesn't often happen.

But I want to think they are doing the right thing and they may just be. Let's keep discussing this and learning more about TVD. I still suspect it is swept under the rug more than it should be although some are more open about it than others.

"We should look at the siblings of our dogs and bitches. That will tell us what is in our lines. If we know that a sibling has TVD then maybe we should not promote a stud dog out of that litter."

Well that is a grey area. Because not every dog in the litter will inherit the gene for TVD, some will inherit it, some will have it, some will be clear. That's why we need a DNA test to be certain. Otherwise, we just have to be open about who is producing what, test our dogs, keep good records and be honest with ourselves. So just because a sibling may be affected, doesn't mean that the littermates will have the gene too. And to exclude an outstanding because he/she might have it, would be throwing the baby out with bath water, especially if the dog clears its ECG/w doppler.

***Ok, as I've typed this up, I see more posts have been added. I have to go to work, but it's been an interesting discussion and sadly it seems those who are continually asking the same questions are not reading and understanding my answers, so I will stop now anyway. There is too much hype surrounding TVD. Yes, young dogs can die from it, but it's not that common. Yes, breeders line breed on it, but it's not that simple as doubling up on it because not all offspring from known producers have the gene and maybe those breeders KNOW something YOU don't. Yes, breeders will do what they want to do when it comes to breeding dogs and that is THEIR business. Yes it is important to talk about TVD and other related problems, but in a calm and rational manner.

But for those who think that TVD is really such a horrible disease and so many of our young dogs are just dropping dead all over the country (simply NOT true), how many other are being put down or having to undergo painful surgeries to correct hip or elbow dysplasia? Having lived with dogs with severe hip dysplasia and severe elbow dysplasia over the years (and having to put several down at a young age) vs a dog with moderate TVD (once thought to be severe) who is about to celebrate her 10th birthday, let me tell you, my old lady is sound and otherwise a happy healthy girl! I'll take her condition ANY day.

Ok gotta go!

Dianne

yes you should be worried. Certain stud owners are flat out denying that there is current TVD in their stud dogs lines

Dianne
I think you are looking at the world through rose colored glasses or you are deliberately deluding yourself.
Breeders have posted on this forum about losing 50% or more of a litter before they were 2 weeks old because they were TVD affected and the hearts just stopped. I have heard of important stud dogs just choking or dying on plane rides.
You say in your last post that we should be open about what we have and what is up with our dogs ... right after you posted to Shiela that she has it wrong about TVD dogs and breeding to siblings. The poor woman has two male dogs and they both have TVD??

I would like to see every breeder who can afford it and who has produced a TVD dog contribute to this important research. When we get a test, and we will, then it will sort out who is who and some of us will be asking ... how could they not have told us?

I am sure (I hope) the dam of Sheila's TVD dog is not being bred again. What I am wondering is why the sire, the stud that produced it, is still standing at stud and still being used? And why is the owner of the sire denying he has produced it?
No wonder we have this problem. The breeders with this problem in their lines are FRAUDS.

But as Dianne said ... keep breeding because they won't all get TVD and those that do probably won't drop dead of it. Who is she kidding?

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you can't support the research monetarily, if you have a dog with TVD send in the blood sample and pedigree so that when the funding is available, the research can happen.
I personally hope I never feel better about TVD. I hope that I am always heartbroken and somewhat angry about it. The anger makes me want to act--send the blood sample in, not buy another new outfit for me but send that money in to help fund research. I will be very disapointed with myself if I ever accept it!
Course, I feel that way about Grade 1 elbows too

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you! I plan on accidently dropping a little bit of turkey, dressing and pie in with the kibble tommorrow
Sheila

You are right, his mother and all littermates and half siblings have been spayed/neutered. Luckily for the Labrador community, my boys breeder acted very quickly to make sure that these dogs didn't keep passing it on. As for his Dad.........dunno. The breeder/owner knows that he had an affected offspring.

"I think you are looking at the world through rose colored glasses or you are deliberately deluding yourself."

Sorry Lucy, no I am not deluding myself nor looking through rose colored glasses. Trust me I know TVD is out there, I have a TVD AFFECTED bitch!

"Breeders have posted on this forum about losing 50% or more of a litter before they were 2 weeks old because they were TVD affected and the hearts just stopped."

Ok, I read this forum A LOT and I must have missed these poor unfortunate breeders posts. Could you please let me know who they were or when they were and how they were diagnosed?

"I have heard of important stud dogs just choking or dying on plane rides."

I have "heard" things too, but remember unless we talk directly to the owners of these dogs that died on planes those that are talking may just be spreading more gossip.

And while I'm not trying to take sides here, I'm just trying to look at it from a realistic, non-judgement, non-emotional standpoint. I try to look at the whole picture and until we can get a more accurate picture of the amount of dogs tested in our general population that test clear vs test affected, we aren't getting an accurate picture. At the one clinic I took my last two girls to, there were many many Labs done, and I don't think there was even one affected. This was in Northern California. And then as stated earlier, certain dogs tend to produce a higher number of affected get or more severely affected get. This should also be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not a dog should be retired from the gene pool and of course if a dog themselves is affected, certainly it should not be used for breeding!

"You say in your last post that we should be open about what we have and what is up with our dogs ... right after you posted to Shiela that she has it wrong about TVD dogs and breeding to siblings. The poor woman has two male dogs and they both have TVD??"

Yes, I am sorry that she's had to deal with this problem, as have I, but it is a problem in our breed that is not going to go away by codemning lines and then going blindly into other lines thinking they will be safe. I am not saying I agree with the breedings that all breeders do, but my thoughts about TVD have changed over the years. We need to test ALL lines and stop pointing fingers. TALK to breeders who WILL be open about the problems they've encountered with TVD. If they are willing to share their knowledge with people who are genuiningly interested in learning, then we will be able to make better breeding choices.

At this point using sibblines, is just a guess because some will have the gene and some won't. It's not like a recessive where a puppy will inheret one copy of the gene from the carrier. For some reason some times the gene is not passed on. We don't know who has it or not. It is not my decision to make nor condemn nor condone.

Yes some breeders do choose to ignore that they have TVD in their lines and I don't think that's right either. But what they do with their dogs is their choice. What I do with mine is my decision.