I am mentoring someone who has been breeding for awhile, but is now wanting to "do it right" - showing, breeding for quality, etc... I'm having a hard time getting her to break her old habits though, and find that she's charging 50% more for the puppies she's selling to show homes vs. the pet price. I told her that most reputable breeders sell them for the same price - in fact, she's selling her puppies for more than I have, who has finished a number of champions and have dogs all over the country with other breeders.

Any advice, or are more people charging more for show prospects?

Just tell her charging more is fine, providing she will give the buyer another show prospect puppy if the first one does not work out.

I personally feel that all the pups in a litter have the same value. They all cost the exact same to raise, they all have the same pedigree. For me male, female, black, yellow or chocolate are of equal value. I also believe that that cost is based on the breeding and the puppies/pedigree that is produced, not the market for buyers.

JMO

I do charge more for show prospects but I sell my pets for $800.00 because of the area I am in...and honestly, I am not going to place a puppy on full registration for this price.

Frankly, I prefer not to sell show prospects at all. If I do want to run on one generally I co-own it with friends that have similar goals to me...if it turns out..great! If not...well that is the way it goes. Usually I do not charge anything for these co-owns. The problem I have with selling show prospects is that I breed litters for myself and I am going to keep the best 2 or 3 puppies to grow up. Promising puppies do not always live up to their early potential and that is just the way it goes. When I started out, no one replaced a puppy because it did not turn out for show...this is part of the learning process. I just don't understand the "entitlement" mentality that so many new people have.

If she is new...how in the heck can she estimate the quality of the puppy as an adult? Breeders who have been at this and working with lines closely might be able to accurately predict how puppies will mature. Someone who is new to this certainly will not be able to. Sounds like she needs to put her ego in check and concentrate on her own program and not selling puppies with show potential for awhile.

For those that charge more for show prospects, do you refund the extra amount when the pup does not turn out to be show quality and is spayed/neutered? In reality, any intact dog can be shown, but they are not all competitive. Once the dog is spayed/neitered there is no risk to "full registration".

DITTO to Well........above

If she wants to do that then she better be prepared to guarantee that the puppy is going to not developement any major faults, be able to win in the ring, and pass all it's health clearances, otherwise be prepared to take the puppy back and either replace it or give a full refund. There is nothing wrong with charging more for a puppy with show potential if you are able to do this, and many top kennels do, but they are also in a position to do the above, and will. I do not sell puppies as show prospects as I do not guarantee that any puppy will be suited for any particular purpose, if a puppy is going to a show home the only difference is it is on full registration, but is the same price as a pet puppy.
Anyone willing to pay extra for a "show puppy" from someone just starting out is probably also just as naive.

Really!? I have bought many "show prospects" over the years...if they don't turn out to what I hope then I place them as pets and get that portion of my investment back. This thought that a breeder should refund or replace a puppy that does not turn out to be the show hopeful the purchaser thought is absurd! I guarantee hips/elbows and eyes...that is what I guarantee. If the puppy does not turn out then spay/neuter and place.

Guess what...there are no guarantees in life! About time some of these folks wake up and realize that there are going to be bumps along the way. If they can't handle the disappointment of a show prospect not turning out I would suggest another hobby that they are not setting themselves up for disappointment and heartache. Maybe stamp collecting?! LOL

Seriously, this is the least tragic thing that can happen in this sport. Many of us had to start over a number of times and learned alot along the way.

As to my price difference...I would guess what I charge for a "show" prospect is no different than what most of you charge for your puppies across the board. $1,000.00 - $1,200.00 and no I won't refund if a pup does not turn out for show.

The breeders who sold you show prospects should be grateful that you did not demand a replacement puppy and took your losses. I agree that any puppy is a crapshoot and there is no way to guarantee anything, but many buyers would not be as understanding as you. If a puppy is sold with the single purpose of being a show dog and cannot fulfill that purpose I believe in some states legally the buyer is entitled to compensation, there is a name to this law but I cannot remember it offhand. It also applies to dogs sold as obedience dogs, hunting dogs, or any specific purpose. I guess it may also depend on what it says in your contract and if you state that the puppy is for show.

Well your answer really speaks volumes of the mentality of our society and the entitlment attitude. Actually there are many very experienced and successful breeders who do not offer refunds for this type of thing.

Yep...the very few times I have sold show "prospect" puppies it is with the specific language in my contract that the puppy at time of sale did not have any disqualifying faults and that I did not guarantee the puppy's future success in the show ring. I don't sell people a bill of goods...I guess I am old fashioned...I am honest with them about the sport. Isn't that refreshing! Honesty!

I just think that people's expectactions have changed with the upcoming generations. When I started out, this was not an expectation and I won't offer it today. Frankly I could care less if I sell a show puppy to someone...I prefer the ones we don't keep here go to loving companion homes. Frankly, I want no part of a newbie with this type of entitlement attitude...you cannot teach them anything and they will last all of 10 minutes in this sport.

Although..that said..I would never be dumb enough to spend thousands of dollars on an 8 wk old puppy either. To each his own.

I do sell a possible potential pup for a couple hundred more, but my high prices is still lower than some of the others I have seen listed.

It is up front I do not guarantee anything extra then what I guarantee a pet puppy for.
They know up front if you want to try this pup for this purpose and it does not turn out then you place it as a pet pup to get your money back.
If they are not idiots I usually will offer them another possible pup at a lower price as a friendly gesture but that should be my choice

I would only sell a potential pup because it would be something I would run on myself. I dont feel every pup is equal in the litter so why should the prices be equal? I dont charge more for different colors but for quality sure.
you couldnt buy a Mercedes for a economy car price......both are good cars but there is a difference which reflex the price.

I have purchased prospects from top breeders, I know the parents, I know the pedigree it is my choice to take the chance, she may be a great breeder but she is not a fortune teller. If the pup does not turn out it is spayed/ neutere and placed in a pet home. all part of the investment.

I would think we should all be able to guarantee that what we produce is suited (temperament, soundness and desire)for hunting waterfowl, or what on earth are we breeding? If the dog is not suitable for its intended purpose then we as breeders are not doing anything for this breed.

can you give me your fortune tellers name and number?

I sure wish I knew which pups would be Champions or Master Hunters at 8 weeks old, that would save me bundles money and time!

I don't understand charging more at all. Same pups. Just a guess as to if they will turn out for show. Just like the one we keep for ourselves. What still surprises me is the "experience" breeder who wants a great pup from another breeder and when something small comes up, wants the money back, wants another pup. We all take chances. We can't tell what is going to work out. Spay, neuter, sell and get part of your money back. Be fair. Thats why they should be sold at the same price. Now an older with clearances might be different. Then I still wonder why they are parting with it. JMO

No one is saying anything about producing a CH or a MH, but any dog we produce should be able to hunt waterfowl in a pet home (again, soundness, desire and temperament). If we cannot guarantee that, we are not breeding better dogs than anyone else out there on the street.

First off I don't know where you get the idea "most reputable breeders charge the same price". Just because people post on her anonymously and claim they charge the same price doens't make it so. I know of very few well known breeders who don't charge more for show potential puppies. That said, everything is dependant on circumstances.

If I have a puppy with show potential and someone who I know and trust is interested I have given the dog for free and requested 2 puppies back later in life. So, there is no money up front to the breeder but I essentially I get double the price but have to wait for it. If the puppy doesn't turn out I lose the entire puppy price.

One the RARE occasion I have sold to someone that I don't know as well. My contract states the puppy is sold as breeding quality and I ask slightly more than pet price. On a breeding quality contrat I guarantee the dog will pass OFA Hips and Elbows as well as CERF. I never sell a dog as "show quality" and make that clear upfront. If the bite goes off, if the tail carriage changes, if the adult coat sucks etc the buyer is SOL.

My pet contract is a functional guarantee for hips only so there is a difference between what I offer pet buyers vs someone buying on open registration.

Ultimately it's not about what each of use thinks of each others practies but what the buyer and seller find fair. If both buyer and seller are happy with the agreement than I don't see how it's anyone else business what price is charge. If the seller doesn't take the time to educate themselves and talk to multiple breeders regarding quality, price, pedigree etc maybe they deserve to pay a higher price. Just my opinion

The last time I checked we still live in the good old USA (most of us)...............and we still have many of our freedoms intact. Free to set whatever price we are able to get in an open market without having some "know it all" tell us what it should be or should not be! I price my puppies at whatever pleases me (and can get), whether it is to be a pet or whether it will show. It is no ones business but mine (and the buyer) as to price and warrantees.

She was not showing, breeding for quality, etc. before you began mentoring her, yet she sold puppies to show homes for a higher price than to pet homes? Also: do you both live in the same area?

If a legitimate show person (even beginner) is buying a show prospect from an experienced and successful show breeder, I do not have any problems with that pup being more expensive than a pet pup. Many good breeders just ask puppy price and puppies back later though (if the pup turns out). This makes it less risk for the buyer and does not require any guarantees that they puppy actually turns out to be show quality. We all know choosing a specialty winner at 8 weeks is not an exact science.

However, I hear all the time about "breeders" without any show experience (or success) charging more to pet homes because a puppy is "show quality". I can only say that these "breeders" are less than ethical and the puppy buyers are suckers.

I also think who falls into this same category is the person who charges more for females than males. More for yellow or chocolate. More for full registration, since they just charge a couple hundred more. Like that is safer somehow. And I agree a long time well known breeder should be asking more for her pups in general. She has the right.

Yes Freedom, You are partially correct. We do live in the USA and you can charge whatever you can get on the open market. However,what we are discussing is what is fair to charge on the open market. You do have the freedom to be unfair.

There is the matter of a simple concept called liberty. Liberty acknowledges the responsibility to treat others fairly even though you have the freedom do do otherwise.

Freedom without liberty is shallow.