Labrador Retriever Forum
Comment
Oldtimer
And while you are at it, have EVERY offspring x-rayed for hips and elbows to know for sure if your dog has/has not produced dysplasia in those places as well.
I am not trying to trivialize TVD. I just think we should look at it in perspective. It is a type of deformity (dysplasia) in our breed that affects the health and quality of life for the dogs as well as their owners. Orthopedic dysplasia has the same result. We have had the technology for evaluating bones for a long time and have greatly reduced the impact of CHD and ED on the breed. The tools for thorough evaluation of heart defects are relatively new and not as readily available. As more dogs are screened, we may get a better idea of how prevalent this type of dysplasia really is and develop reasonable approaches to limiting it in the gene pool.
Until we know a lot more about the prevalence and risks, I think that the hyper-reactionary "scorched earth" suggestions may be unrealistic. They certainly were in dealing with orthopedic dysplasia. If you remove every dog from the gene pool that has a relative with TVD, you may not have much of a pool to swim in.
I am not trying to trivialize TVD. I just think we should look at it in perspective. It is a type of deformity (dysplasia) in our breed that affects the health and quality of life for the dogs as well as their owners. Orthopedic dysplasia has the same result. We have had the technology for evaluating bones for a long time and have greatly reduced the impact of CHD and ED on the breed. The tools for thorough evaluation of heart defects are relatively new and not as readily available. As more dogs are screened, we may get a better idea of how prevalent this type of dysplasia really is and develop reasonable approaches to limiting it in the gene pool.
Until we know a lot more about the prevalence and risks, I think that the hyper-reactionary "scorched earth" suggestions may be unrealistic. They certainly were in dealing with orthopedic dysplasia. If you remove every dog from the gene pool that has a relative with TVD, you may not have much of a pool to swim in.
If you are referring to MY post about testing offspring to know whether or not TVD is being produced (I did not say to breed or not breed) please reread. My post was to stress that the only way to know if your dog is producing or has produced TVD is to have all offspring tested at 18 months by echo color doppler. For your convenience here are both of my unedited posts on the subject:
sad
I bred a cardiac clear daughter of a bitch who had produced TVD (a g-granddaughter of a TVD affected stud) and produced a dog who had TVD.
sad
The key is to do echo color doppler on EVERY offspring at 18 months of age to know for sure if your dog has/has not produced TVD.
My post was to stress that the only way to know if your dog is or has producedTVD is to have all offspring tested at 18 months by echo color doppler.
I may be old, but I can read just fine.
My post was to stress that if you don't apply EXACTLY the same screening for orthopedic dysplasia (testing every offspring) then this is a hypocritical and unrealistic suggestion. Whether bones or heart are affected, deformities are a problem. Most people today would consider it reactionary to suggest that every offspring of every dog be evaluated for CHD and ED. It may be desirable, but it is not likely to happen in what little is left of my lifetime.
That begs the question of why you need to know if a dog has EVER produced TVD (or CHD or ED). If it is not for the purpose of making a decision about breeding that dog, then it is a lot of expense for nothing. Your suggestion for evaluating every offspring may be commendable, but what do you recommend one does with that data???? You seem to be emphasizing only half the story (the detective half). If there is no action plan for dealing with the results, then it is not a very useful suggestion.
Again, I am not trivializing TVD. I am just trying to bring it into realistic focus by comparison with dysplasias we have known and dealt with for decades. If and when we have an accurate genetic test for TVD, then we can make a much better plan for limiting its impact - just like we have for PRA.
Not true at all. There are breeds that have gone from 90% HD rates to below 10% over a 30 year period by installing a code of ethics.
What I actually posted was true. Back in the old days when we were first coming to terms with CHD (pre OFA), it was recommended by many "purists" that any dog with a relative that was dysplastic (parent, offspring, sibling, etc.) should never be bred. That was simply unrealistic in our breed.
There are breeds that have come back from the brink by carefully limiting CHD. OFA has some statistics that will show the dramatic improvement of hips over a few decades. That was NOT accomplished by removing every dog that had a relative with CHD from breeding!!! The ethical breeding practices that worked best overall involved screening all potential breeding stock (not necessarly every single dog in the breed). Dogs that did not pass screening were not used for breeding.
I have only seen a couple of clubs that had "no breeding of any relative of a dog with dysplasia" and those clubs lost all their breeder members. It is just not realistic in many breeds - including ours. Our breed and many others have consistently improved orthopedic soundness by LIMITING the direct input of CHD from affected individuals, not by removing every relative from the gene pool.
This may or may not be directly applicable to TVD, but I see some of the same reactionary suggestions from "purists" that I noticed back in the 50s. Everything old is new again
Oldtimer
My post was to stress that the only way to know if your dog is or has producedTVD is to have all offspring tested at 18 months by echo color doppler.
I may be old, but I can read just fine.
My post was to stress that if you don't apply EXACTLY the same screening for orthopedic dysplasia (testing every offspring) then this is a hypocritical and unrealistic suggestion. Whether bones or heart are affected, deformities are a problem. Most people today would consider it reactionary to suggest that every offspring of every dog be evaluated for CHD and ED. It may be desirable, but it is not likely to happen in what little is left of my lifetime.
That begs the question of why you need to know if a dog has EVER produced TVD (or CHD or ED). If it is not for the purpose of making a decision about breeding that dog, then it is a lot of expense for nothing. Your suggestion for evaluating every offspring may be commendable, but what do you recommend one does with that data???? You seem to be emphasizing only half the story (the detective half). If there is no action plan for dealing with the results, then it is not a very useful suggestion.
Again, I am not trivializing TVD. I am just trying to bring it into realistic focus by comparison with dysplasias we have known and dealt with for decades. If and when we have an accurate genetic test for TVD, then we can make a much better plan for limiting its impact - just like we have for PRA.
The cardiologists and geneticists consulted were giving this recommendation from the mid 90's, when the labrador community in the USA 1st learned of TVD issues, and has remained unchanged.
Read the following quote from last year which has the same recommendations in 2009 as it was 15 years earlier.
Susan ~ Fenwyck
Dear Lies, damn lies and statistics.....
Your statement about echoing with *symptoms* not being the same and echoing a dog without symptoms is hogwash. All auscultations should be confirmed by an echo doppler by a trained DACVM.
Think of it as a leak in your house, you can have a leak causing damage and NEVER hear a drop of water "dripping" and yet there is structural damage that you need to "see" but unfortunately many times it is to late. No, not every time but many times.
Without rehashing old news, or at least begging for your indulgence if I do, I will try to condense what I have learned about TVD during the past year. I had a huge TVD scare, that (had it been real) would have literally brought my breeding program to it’s knees, or ended it. Because of this I have been paying close attention to what I have learned from the DACVM's kind enough to take time to share their thoughts with me. And no I am not a DACVM, and that is why I am listening to them and asking their advice.
I have been fortunate to have had indulgent cardiologists spend time on the phone with me, as well as time spent in person. They have been wonderful in answering my questions and sharing their knowledge in ‘layman’s terms’ with me. I am particularly grateful to Dr. William Tyrell of Chesapeake Veterinary Cardiology Associates, and to Dr. Teresa DeFrancesco,DACVIM (Cardiology) of NC State.
TVD is one of the things that strikes fear in my own heart. Of concern to me were the figures that I heard repeatedly during my discussions with the cardiologists. The specific figures were a 5%-20% ‘miss’ rate for TVD which exists for dogs who have received heart clearances by auscultation alone. That figure makes me shake in my boots. The lower side of the percentage range are those missed by trained cardiologists and, as you would expect, the higher percentages are those missed by general practice veterinarians. While it may not seem significant at first glance, the fact that breeders may receive an OFA “pass” based upon a single auscultation performed by a general veterinarian, causes me to stop and question the validity of that protocol. Unlike CERF, which must be done annually by a trained veterinary ophthamologist, I am not personally aware of any breeders who receive a cardiac ‘clear’ by auscultation alone who have the auscultation repeated annually by a cardiologist for ‘re-certification,’ instead breeders consider that particular clearance box checked.
Why should we be diligent about this particular health risk in our beloved Labrador breed? First we do not yet completely understand how it is inherited, but we do know that it is inherited. We do know that the prognosis, and life expectancy for dogs with TVD is 1-3 years at the most, with the survival time of dogs with TVD dependent upon the extent to which the normal function of the valve is compromised. Surprisingly however, some dogs with TVD may exhibit no symptoms until they are in congestive heart failure, and unfortunately for us, these dogs may have already been bred once or even multiple times. I honestly believe that not one of us ever wants to ‘breed in’ or add an additional health risk factor to our Labrador lines. However, by not sharing information on known TVD producers, known TVD diagnoses in a litter, or known relatives within 3-4 generations, we are making the choice to keep this horrible congenital disorder alive and well in Labradors. This is NOT a finger pointing exercise, it is a request for open communication that can help keep our lines healthy so that our wonderful Labradors can compete in the show ring, hunt and be active in performance events, and lead happy healthy lives as family companions.
My question for each cardiologist I spoke to was, “What can I do to curb/stop TVD when I do not know how it is inherited?”
The answers I received can be summed up in the following guidelines starting with the recommendation to be diligent, communicate and research pedigree risks:
* Do not breed a dog who has any littermate diagnosed with TVD
* Do not breed to a dog who has produced TVD
* Try to stay 3 generations away from any known TVD in a pedigree
* Screen every individual in your breeding program
* FULL Screening at 1yr or older = Auscultation in conjunction with Color Echo Doppler by trained DACVM
I am sure that these guidelines seem rather daunting. They did to me. Then I sat back and remembered just how I felt when, for 3 weeks, I thought that I had produced a TVD puppy which had to be put down. Yes to have full and complete knowledge, I did spend mega $$ in necropsy of the puppy who was put down, along with full cardiology work ups on the litter, who fortunately were all under my control.
But, I remember how devastated the family was who had been waiting a year for a puppy from me felt, and how their children could not understand why their puppy had died. And then, because I had done this particular breeding twice, how I felt about the 4 puppies I had kept from this repeat breeding and having my 20 yr adventure in Labradors come to an end as a result of this congenital disorder.
The good news is that recently the TVD research for a genetic test has been given a financial shot in the arm. This is exciting news, but until we get a definitive test I would beg of each of you to do your best to breed away from TVD using the guidelines provided above. We are the custodians and stewards of what I consider to be the best breed, the Labrador. The Labrador Retriever breed deserves our very best efforts to preserve it, its health, and to maintain it to the best of our ability.
Your statement about echoing with *symptoms* not being the same and echoing a dog without symptoms is hogwash. All auscultations should be confirmed by an echo doppler by a trained DACVM.
Think of it as a leak in your house, you can have a leak causing damage and NEVER hear a drop of water "dripping" and yet there is structural damage that you need to "see" but unfortunately many times it is to late. No, not every time but many times.
Without rehashing old news, or at least begging for your indulgence if I do, I will try to condense what I have learned about TVD during the past year. I had a huge TVD scare, that (had it been real) would have literally brought my breeding program to it’s knees, or ended it. Because of this I have been paying close attention to what I have learned from the DACVM's kind enough to take time to share their thoughts with me. And no I am not a DACVM, and that is why I am listening to them and asking their advice.
I have been fortunate to have had indulgent cardiologists spend time on the phone with me, as well as time spent in person. They have been wonderful in answering my questions and sharing their knowledge in ‘layman’s terms’ with me. I am particularly grateful to Dr. William Tyrell of Chesapeake Veterinary Cardiology Associates, and to Dr. Teresa DeFrancesco,DACVIM (Cardiology) of NC State.
TVD is one of the things that strikes fear in my own heart. Of concern to me were the figures that I heard repeatedly during my discussions with the cardiologists. The specific figures were a 5%-20% ‘miss’ rate for TVD which exists for dogs who have received heart clearances by auscultation alone. That figure makes me shake in my boots. The lower side of the percentage range are those missed by trained cardiologists and, as you would expect, the higher percentages are those missed by general practice veterinarians. While it may not seem significant at first glance, the fact that breeders may receive an OFA “pass” based upon a single auscultation performed by a general veterinarian, causes me to stop and question the validity of that protocol. Unlike CERF, which must be done annually by a trained veterinary ophthamologist, I am not personally aware of any breeders who receive a cardiac ‘clear’ by auscultation alone who have the auscultation repeated annually by a cardiologist for ‘re-certification,’ instead breeders consider that particular clearance box checked.
Why should we be diligent about this particular health risk in our beloved Labrador breed? First we do not yet completely understand how it is inherited, but we do know that it is inherited. We do know that the prognosis, and life expectancy for dogs with TVD is 1-3 years at the most, with the survival time of dogs with TVD dependent upon the extent to which the normal function of the valve is compromised. Surprisingly however, some dogs with TVD may exhibit no symptoms until they are in congestive heart failure, and unfortunately for us, these dogs may have already been bred once or even multiple times. I honestly believe that not one of us ever wants to ‘breed in’ or add an additional health risk factor to our Labrador lines. However, by not sharing information on known TVD producers, known TVD diagnoses in a litter, or known relatives within 3-4 generations, we are making the choice to keep this horrible congenital disorder alive and well in Labradors. This is NOT a finger pointing exercise, it is a request for open communication that can help keep our lines healthy so that our wonderful Labradors can compete in the show ring, hunt and be active in performance events, and lead happy healthy lives as family companions.
My question for each cardiologist I spoke to was, “What can I do to curb/stop TVD when I do not know how it is inherited?”
The answers I received can be summed up in the following guidelines starting with the recommendation to be diligent, communicate and research pedigree risks:
* Do not breed a dog who has any littermate diagnosed with TVD
* Do not breed to a dog who has produced TVD
* Try to stay 3 generations away from any known TVD in a pedigree
* Screen every individual in your breeding program
* FULL Screening at 1yr or older = Auscultation in conjunction with Color Echo Doppler by trained DACVM
I am sure that these guidelines seem rather daunting. They did to me. Then I sat back and remembered just how I felt when, for 3 weeks, I thought that I had produced a TVD puppy which had to be put down. Yes to have full and complete knowledge, I did spend mega $$ in necropsy of the puppy who was put down, along with full cardiology work ups on the litter, who fortunately were all under my control.
But, I remember how devastated the family was who had been waiting a year for a puppy from me felt, and how their children could not understand why their puppy had died. And then, because I had done this particular breeding twice, how I felt about the 4 puppies I had kept from this repeat breeding and having my 20 yr adventure in Labradors come to an end as a result of this congenital disorder.
The good news is that recently the TVD research for a genetic test has been given a financial shot in the arm. This is exciting news, but until we get a definitive test I would beg of each of you to do your best to breed away from TVD using the guidelines provided above. We are the custodians and stewards of what I consider to be the best breed, the Labrador. The Labrador Retriever breed deserves our very best efforts to preserve it, its health, and to maintain it to the best of our ability.
I would not breed a daughter. I would not breed anyone within miles of a dog that has passed this on.
Why breed a sibling of a TVD dog. Same Dam right ? Don't we have alot of nice dogs out there without working with lines that we know have TVD in them. It is like the owners of the stud dogs that have offsprings with TVD. They just keep offering them up for stud. I find it very sad. Do we just want money and glory or do we want to try and keep the Labrador as healthy as we can. We don't know for sure a way to breed around this. Not as clear as PRA. I would think being as careful as we can is a start.
I have an even better idea. In order to be sure you don't produce any problems, just don't breed.
Thanks anon... you got my point
YES, please. Don't.
anon today
I have an even better idea. In order to be sure you don't produce any problems, just don't breed.
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free 
labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free 
That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.
Impossible
labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free
That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.
The board would genuinely like to hear your suggestions for improvement. LabraData was developed to serve the Labrador community. If we know what you would like to see changed, then we can try to make it better. A general comment like the one above isn't helpful in trying to make the system more useable. Since you are a computer person, we would really welcome your input and would even like to recruit you to the team. We are always looking for talented people with good ideas. Please contact us at
board@labradata.org. We look forward to hearing from you with some constructive suggestions. Remember, LabraData is YOUR database and the board is here to serve you.
You may not use Labradata, your friends may not use it. But some of us do. It is not that hard. Anyone would be glad to guide you through it. I am not much at all with computers but figure it out quickly. It is just one thing we use. I find the OFA site shows more who passed everything. The who fail or who is a carrier are harder to find. So you use your tools and I'll use mine, but you don't have to put anyone down.
labradata admin
Impossible
labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free
That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.
The board would genuinely like to hear your suggestions for improvement. LabraData was developed to serve the Labrador community. If we know what you would like to see changed, then we can try to make it better. A general comment like the one above isn't helpful in trying to make the system more useable. Since you are a computer person, we would really welcome your input and would even like to recruit you to the team. We are always looking for talented people with good ideas. Please contact us at
board@labradata.org. We look forward to hearing from you with some constructive suggestions. Remember, LabraData is YOUR database and the board is here to serve you.
last time I tried to say it was difficult and not user friendly and would have been happy to have made suggestions, the "administrators" jumped all over me. It is NOT easy to use or user friendly and I am computer literate.
Impossible
labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free
That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.
Interesting. I'm a retired computer programmer and I found it quite easy to use - and volunteered my time to help with data input at one point.
Perhaps some suggestions to those in control would help to make it easier?
Anon as well
Thank you. I too wish people REALLY cared about the breed and just didn't give lip service. We, current breeders, are the lifeline of our breed.
It is heart wrenching to have a lovely animal that you have your breeding program counting on to be TVD affected, or fail their OFA's, but it happens. We were in the same situation with CHD years ago and we have come a long way. Now it is just heart breaking when they fail their OFS's. We don't throw out the sire, dam or siblings from our breeding program. We are not scared of a failed hip as we are now educated. This is the same situation we now find ourselves in regarding TVD.
What did breeders do in the beginning with hip & elbows that failed? They (we) started and continue to, x-ray and evaluate the sire, dam, grandparents, siblings etc. We need to do the same with TVD...NOW.
So, learn the truth about TVD and stop spreading rumors and false information. If you don't have a thorough understanding of the problem the EDUCATE yourself. START being proactive and, as you can afford to, echo/doppler your breeding stock. And PLEASE submit your information. This helps us ALL.
As was mentioned, Labradata is a free and the only completely open database available. It is not based on hearsay or rumor. The evaluation report is available for viewing. We MUST start somewhere and we MUST start now.
Ok....I have said enough, but I think the breeders that really care about the breed will get on board - for the good of the Labrador breed.
It is heart wrenching to have a lovely animal that you have your breeding program counting on to be TVD affected, or fail their OFA's, but it happens. We were in the same situation with CHD years ago and we have come a long way. Now it is just heart breaking when they fail their OFS's. We don't throw out the sire, dam or siblings from our breeding program. We are not scared of a failed hip as we are now educated. This is the same situation we now find ourselves in regarding TVD.
What did breeders do in the beginning with hip & elbows that failed? They (we) started and continue to, x-ray and evaluate the sire, dam, grandparents, siblings etc. We need to do the same with TVD...NOW.
So, learn the truth about TVD and stop spreading rumors and false information. If you don't have a thorough understanding of the problem the EDUCATE yourself. START being proactive and, as you can afford to, echo/doppler your breeding stock. And PLEASE submit your information. This helps us ALL.
As was mentioned, Labradata is a free and the only completely open database available. It is not based on hearsay or rumor. The evaluation report is available for viewing. We MUST start somewhere and we MUST start now.
Ok....I have said enough, but I think the breeders that really care about the breed will get on board - for the good of the Labrador breed.
Wish I knew who you were - I'd buy you a drink next time I saw you.
