Did you test with the Un of Minn? Have you ran the test for a second time to make sure the first was not contaminated? Sure sounds like typical EIC to me. Strange. I think Katie Minor would find it very interesting to hear from you...

Heat stroke you would have had a change in the muscle enzymes on bloodwork. It does not sound like your typical seizure to me, but I am not a DVM.

This description is not in keeping with EIC. The neurotransmitter breakdown of EIC makes the muscles FLACID, which is why the dog collapses. They wouldn't be stiff. That is more like the neural overload you would expect with seizure activity. I suspect that over the last century, some seizures have been mistaken for heat collapse, some EIC collapses have been mistaken for seizures, etc. When it is your dog that goes down, most of us are too concerned about the DOG to be clinically accurate observers and note takers

An EIC clear dog should not be having EIC episodes FIRST OFF. It doesn't carry the genes AT ALL, so it's not going to be that disease....PERIOD. Rigid legs indicate seizure to me. I had a boy poisoned on weed killer who seized. He went into the vets within 8 hours of the episode (it happened in the middle of the night and snapped out of it in about 3 minutes) and all of his body function levels/blood/etc were OK except for thyroid.

There are many things such as weed killer mentioned above that can cause seizures. How many of you would neuter this nice boy? He obviously must be nice b/c he had just been used for 2 breedings. I am not sure I would neuter him if there are no known issues in his pedigree/offspring unless he has a subsequent episode -I might hold off using him for awhile but neuter? I wonder if all possible bloodwork like thyroid really was done.

Slow down.

*One last thought- When this episode started, or was first noticed, the dog was in his dog run, awake, sitting,leaning against his fence. He was about to get his food so normally was jumping into the air excited. He wanted to get up, but could not and after about a minute was when he flopped onto his side. His "stiff legs" could be described as out from his body, not up in the air or anything, but he did not fall onto his legs. He made a small noise like maybe a choking noise, and this part lasted about 60 seconds until he was back on his feet running to his wading pool to cool off. It is not known how long he was unable to stand prior to feeding time.*

We have put alot of thought into all of this, and now I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about all of these things. This dog could likely never seize again, or maybe never pass it on to another, but how do I decide that it's okay to ever use him again? I am okay with the fact that he is not going to be used, he is nice, but there are MANY nice dogs available so, that's okay. My interest now lies in the notable difference between these three things, so that I am not confused which is which in the future etc. We did ALL tests on bloodwork, so toxins/poisons were ruled out. This did include extra Thyroid testing as well. We used DDC, and I do not know what his parents owners used. They are being advertised by their owners as EIC clears, and I was told personally by this dog's breeder that they both are. I could look up the white list to see. And no I have not retested him, but could for cross reference, more knowledge etc. So far, I trust the EIC tests, I am sure there are errors for different reasons, but overall, a great tool!
THANK YOU for all of your insight, I hope someday there are more tests, ie epilepsy markers for us to be able to know alot more!

I will share my experiences with toxins. I lost a very vibrant 9 yr old, 2 yrs ago to strychnine poisoning. Nothing showed on the blood panel done in house-- it was just coming off the machine as she fell over, began another seizure and died within minutes on the table. It was the worst night of my life. Necropsy showed 2x the lethal limit of strychnine. Yet nothing showed on the blood panel.

Her daughter found something (likely a dead, poisoned critter dropped by crows or whatever) just a few months later within a couple weeks of sending pups from her first litter out-- and also began to seize. I asked point blank the vet on emergency duty if this could be epilepsy and he said NO, she'd been poisoned and he'd seen plenty of cases just like hers. In her case, again, NOTHING showed on the blood work other than maybe high cholesteral and the one liver enzyme being a bit elevated, but not much (different vet clinic on emergency duty). Same dog inhaled a bunch of moldy, rotten apples a year ago and ended up in emergency (same place as where her mom died)... again, NOTHING of significance on bloodwork but as soon as we had her stomach emptied, she was fine other than needing fluids.

Anyhow, I just wanted to add my experiences here to say nothing as far as toxins go, seems to follow any trends with me.

I too would hold off on your boy, maybe collect him while he's young and fertile. Perhaps sometime soon we will have an epilepsy test and really know the status of things. U of MN is also working on some other projects and may want his blood for submission. It COULD be something like PD (paroxysmal diskinesia) though the dog doesn't lose consciousness in that case. Good luck. Anne

Veterinarians cannot directly diagnose epilepsy. They will say a dog is epileptic if all tests for other causes find nothing and there is a HISTORY OF 3 SEIZURES. So for now, you should pull the dog from stud service. If he is a kennel dog, seizures can be problematic. Most seizures are not witnessed by the owners. You might consider making him an inside dog so you can keep better track of him. Good luck!

And get the EIC test to rule that out.

Have you considered sending this dog's blood in to the University of Missouri for their epilepsy research? If you could get access to blood from a clear sibling, or a parent who doesn't have seizures, it would help the researchers reach the number of sibling pairs they need to start the study. You could talk to the folks at U. of MO to see if they think a sample from him would be helpful-- Joan McInnis' latest posts have the info. The good part is that you'll get information on the dog's status-- whether he's clear, a carrier, or truly affected-- once the test is developed. So, potentially, you could leave your dog intact, hold off breeding him in the interim, and possibly clear him via the test down the road, all the while contributing to the development of a test with the potential to help everyone in the breed.

Best of luck to you and your boy, whatever you decide to do.

There is ALOT of posts lately on "EIC", not sure I trust the OP's intentions with all the recent EIC posts. I also think with some anonymous posters may be trying to push the EIC and its testing, when it is really not necessary to blow this EIC up into the end all. It is a very new "clearance" done by a research group who says they cannot 100% identify the actual EIC gene yet. Those who have received Affected results with no collapsing dogs? Still do not believe in the test. Only time will tell and pushing this dna clearance on everyone is not going to make time go any faster. No flames please. Entitled to my opinion, but I am concerned about some people's constant motivation with this topic on this board.

Yes I am going to attempt to submit, I just need his breeders cooperation or the owner of his sire. I am happy to be of any help for studies and that is my next step! Thanks!

We have an 11 year old dog. He was tested as EIC affected at around ten years of age, when we wanted to use him at stud after several years of retirement. His first witnessed EIC incident was at the age of ten. At this time, the dog was on a walk and having a great time and we noticed that he got weak in the rear. This dog never did progress to collapse, he would sit for a few minutes, then get up and run again. Then, he would get wobbly and sit again. I think he could sense something happening and was smart enough to regulate himself. We never witnessed it again, but we were more careful of his exercise after that.
At around the same time as we sent off his test for EIC, we got a phone call that a 7 year old son of his had collapsed and was tested as EIC affected.
I'm so glad that we have the test now, and that we will never again produce an EIC affected dog.

I thank all for speaking up. It was just something talked about for years. Now in not doing anything it is hitting home and way to near. So no one is in a panic, we just do not choose to breed EIC dogs. Placing these pups in a family to break the hearts of kids is not what we want from breeding.

My "constant motivation" to post about EIC is to refute erroneous statements, such as "a research group who says they cannot 100% identify the actual EIC gene yet". The researchers at University of Minnesota are convinced that they do have the gene. The cautionary statements on their website are there because 1. scientists are always cautious about saying they have absolutely proven something and 2. the university's attorney undoubtedly requires that they be cautious when they are offering a product for sale. I have read the research report, and I will include my synopsis here, as well as in the thread below. The research is definitive; they have identified not only the gene but the mutation within the gene that causes EIC. For those of you who were following the earlier EIC thread, this is the same post I made earlier, so you can skip the rest of this message without missing anything. The post was directed at someone who had a scientific background, so I apologize in advance if it uses unfamiliar terms.

I am a geneticist and cell biologist and have read the original research paper. The most salient points are that the research was done by the traditional method of using pedigrees and LoD scores to establish linkage between a marker and EIC collapses. it was NOT done by the more controversial Genome Wide Association technique. One was found that had an astronomically high LoD score (an indication of linkage). The chromosomal region was then searched for candidate genes, and the most likely one was the gene for dynamin 1, which is a protein involved in recycling synaptic vesicles at the neuromuscular junction, in other words a likely candidate to cause the symptoms of EIC. The team then searched the dynamin 1 gene for polymorphisms that associated with EIC in several pedigrees. They found a single base change that always segregated with EIC and thus is without doubt the mutation that causes EIC. The test is for this mutation. The association of E/E status (homozygous for the mutated form) with EIC collapse is not 100%. About 1-2% of dogs that collapse in a manner consistent with EIC do not have the genetic condition. This proportion is the same for carriers and clears. Also, something like 20% of the E/E dogs do not collapse. So there are other rare conditions that mimic EIC, but carriers do not collapse any more frequently than clears do. And some dogs seem to be protected from the effects of the dynamin 1 mutations, presumably by other genes. All of these data are documented by tables in the paper. There also were large data files available as electronic files at the time the paper was published, and I looked at those, too. The researchers had extensive pedigrees to work with, which were shown in those files. Dogs are not named, only assigned a number. Relationships are shown by horizontal lines to denote matings and vertical lines to denote ancestry, as is standard in genetic research. The only thing the researchers did not do was to use knock-out technology to prove that the dynamin 1 mutation does give the phenotype associated with EIC. There is a mutation in the dynamin 1 gene in fruit flies that causes paralysis, but it is in a different part of the gene.

There is NO WHITE LIST for EIC. There is a White List for CNM which is a different genetic condition with similiar symptoms. Are you sure you are not confusing the two.

Yes I know cnm has a white list, my typed mistake, and I looked in the OFA database for his parents results. Thanks for making sure.

DITTO THIS! I have an epileptic dog (Maltese). I witnessed one seizure in the late summer/early fall of 2009. In Feb 2010 I saw three in one week. But as I look back I think he had been having them for maybe the all of 2009 but we were just not seeing them (happening while at work).
One seizure or 5 I would NEVER breed a dog who has had even one!!!!!! Just because you only witnessed one does not mean it is the only one.
There is nothing more horrific than watching your dog seize!