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Susan Mouw
Aug 11, 2010 - 1:57PM
Re: breeding a daughter of a bitch who produced TVD

Riddle me this
"1. a dog/bitch with a clear echo/doppler can produce a TVD affected dog - so it can come throught the sire or dam even if both are cleared by echo/doppler."

So why exactly are we testing? Where I live Echos are hard if not near impossible to come by. Usually means a day off work to travel to a teaching hospital & 3 times the price of a clinic.

Hard to convince people to do a heart clearance when we have no way of fixing the problem by doing it. What is it we plan to gain here?


We test because:

1. Just like x-raying hips and elbows, it is the only way we have to determine the health of that dog's heart. While we are not able to determine the genotype, we can see if there are problems going on internally that can be managed and, hopefully, minimized by being proactive.
2. Because cardiac metrics are still subjective and there is no current standard for normal vs abnormal, testing a large population and reporting those results to a central database will give us the data necessary to of identify true abnormal heart conditions vs normal but different values.
3. Because, while breeding an echo clear to an echo clear could potentially produce an affected dog, just like breeding an OFA good to an OFA good can potentially produce a dog with HD, at least we know what we are breeding. Without the test, we are breeding unknown to unknown and cannot make a reasonable risk assessment on unknown variables.

Hopefully, as more attention is drawn to this issue and more echo clinics are offered, more breeders will have easier access to one and more dogs will be tested. As someone mentioned above, we are riding the crest of a technological wave. At some point, that wave will crest and the test will be more readily available and financially manageable. Remember when video recorders were $400 and up?

Email   Website
Aug 11th, 2010 - 1:57 PM
w
Well Said
Aug 10, 2010 - 9:04PM
Re: breeding a daughter of a bitch who produced TVD

Anon as well
Upon a long discussion with a very experienced cardio doctor here are a few things to be considered:

1. a dog/bitch with a clear echo/doppler can produce a TVD affected dog - so it can come throught the sire or dam even if both are cleared by echo/doppler.

2. It only takes one to tango...not a carrier to carrier as in EIC or PRA.

3. A Cardio by Auscultation is not reliable in mildly affected animals. A "normal" dog by auscultation can have TVD.

4. There are levels of TVD as in CHD. A mildly affected dog can/will live a normal life and you would never know he/she had TVD with out the echo/doppler.

So, until ALL who breed Labradors will start to be open and honest we will not have reliable information to make breeding choices. We MUST submit the affected TVD dogs and their sire & dam so we can find the lines through which it is resides. And we must assist each other in getting the information out, with out blasting the breeder!!!! This is new and expensive and I would bet it is as widespread as CHD affected animals.

Now that being said, we MUST also start doing echo/dopplers on ALL breeding stock. This is a place to start not the end all answer.

Now my opinion on the original question....would I breed a daughter of a bitch who produced TVD. Yes, if she were echo/doppler cleared. However, I would do my very best to find a stud dog who had a clear echo/doppler and hopefully had parents with clear echo/dopplers as well. Again, if we don't START testing we will get no where fast as there will not be any sires with parents who are all tested (and it would be even better if the siblings were tested as well). Information such as this it a tool, so lets get out and test and SUBMITT ALL results and help each other and our breed out.


Just repeating the above for emphasis. I wish your views were widely shared.

i
Impossible
Aug 11, 2010 - 12:48AM
Re: breeding a daughter of a bitch who produced TVD

labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free


That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.

l
labradata admin
Aug 11, 2010 - 8:59AM
Re: LabraData

Impossible
labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free


That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.

The board would genuinely like to hear your suggestions for improvement. LabraData was developed to serve the Labrador community. If we know what you would like to see changed, then we can try to make it better. A general comment like the one above isn't helpful in trying to make the system more useable. Since you are a computer person, we would really welcome your input and would even like to recruit you to the team. We are always looking for talented people with good ideas. Please contact us at
board@labradata.org. We look forward to hearing from you with some constructive suggestions. Remember, LabraData is YOUR database and the board is here to serve you.

b
Breeder too
Aug 11, 2010 - 9:12AM
Re: LabraData

You may not use Labradata, your friends may not use it. But some of us do. It is not that hard. Anyone would be glad to guide you through it. I am not much at all with computers but figure it out quickly. It is just one thing we use. I find the OFA site shows more who passed everything. The who fail or who is a carrier are harder to find. So you use your tools and I'll use mine, but you don't have to put anyone down.

a
anon
Aug 11, 2010 - 10:23AM
Re: LabraData

labradata admin
Impossible
labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free


That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.

The board would genuinely like to hear your suggestions for improvement. LabraData was developed to serve the Labrador community. If we know what you would like to see changed, then we can try to make it better. A general comment like the one above isn't helpful in trying to make the system more useable. Since you are a computer person, we would really welcome your input and would even like to recruit you to the team. We are always looking for talented people with good ideas. Please contact us at
board@labradata.org. We look forward to hearing from you with some constructive suggestions. Remember, LabraData is YOUR database and the board is here to serve you.




last time I tried to say it was difficult and not user friendly and would have been happy to have made suggestions, the "administrators" jumped all over me. It is NOT easy to use or user friendly and I am computer literate.

l
labradata admin
Aug 11, 2010 - 11:35AM
Re: LabraData

last time I tried to say it was difficult and not user friendly and would have been happy to have made suggestions, the "administrators" jumped all over me. It is NOT easy to use or user friendly and am computer literate.

I have no idea what the situation was, but the board is always eager to receive input from users - good or bad. Just because the administrative staff did not agree with your suggestions does not mean they didn't appreciate the feedback. What may seem simple to one user may not be simple to another. This is especially true when experienced computer people would prefer a streamlined system, but the design has to accommodate novice users as well.

The 2.0 upgrade two years ago simplified submittal and made it a step-by-step process so that novice users would know what information was required at each step. We added links, a new front page and expanded searches. This upgrade was entirely user driven with input and suggestions at each stage of redevelopment. If it is not to your liking, then you probably were not part of the process. We have to know what people want instead of general comments about user friendliness.

The official board email address allows all the board members to see your input and evaluate it. Even if your ideas are not incorporated, please don't take it personally as nobody is jumping on you - we just try to consider all the implications and (of course) the funds available for improvements. We would be happy to provide the Labrador community the most useful and advanced database possible - but it can only happen with user input and financial support. Please visit the website and tell us what you would like to see.
http://www.labradata.org

a
Anon as well
Aug 11, 2010 - 12:14PM
Re: breeding a daughter of a bitch who produced TVD

Thank you. I too wish people REALLY cared about the breed and just didn't give lip service. We, current breeders, are the lifeline of our breed.

It is heart wrenching to have a lovely animal that you have your breeding program counting on to be TVD affected, or fail their OFA's, but it happens. We were in the same situation with CHD years ago and we have come a long way. Now it is just heart breaking when they fail their OFS's. We don't throw out the sire, dam or siblings from our breeding program. We are not scared of a failed hip as we are now educated. This is the same situation we now find ourselves in regarding TVD.

What did breeders do in the beginning with hip & elbows that failed? They (we) started and continue to, x-ray and evaluate the sire, dam, grandparents, siblings etc. We need to do the same with TVD...NOW.

So, learn the truth about TVD and stop spreading rumors and false information. If you don't have a thorough understanding of the problem the EDUCATE yourself. START being proactive and, as you can afford to, echo/doppler your breeding stock. And PLEASE submit your information. This helps us ALL.

As was mentioned, Labradata is a free and the only completely open database available. It is not based on hearsay or rumor. The evaluation report is available for viewing. We MUST start somewhere and we MUST start now.

Ok....I have said enough, but I think the breeders that really care about the breed will get on board - for the good of the Labrador breed.

a
anon
Aug 11, 2010 - 1:23PM
Re: LabraData

"last time I tried to say it was difficult and not user friendly and would have been happy to have made suggestions, the "administrators" jumped all over me. It is NOT easy to use or user friendly and I am computer literate"


Your Response:"Just because the administrative staff did not agree with your suggestions does not mean they didn't appreciate the feedback"

This is exactly why there are so many problems on this forum. READ what I said.................. I WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPY to have made suggestions. I DID NOT. I was not given the opportunity at all, I was jumped on instead and in fact it was on this forum last year!!

s
Susan Mouw
Aug 11, 2010 - 2:04PM
Re: breeding a daughter of a bitch who produced TVD

Impossible
labradata fan
I know many hate to spend the $15 to post reports on OFA. Remember, you can put all your results in Labradata for free


That site is impossible to work with. It is not user friendly and I'm in the computer field. I would rather spend $15 for clearance on OFA. No one I know even looks for clearances on the other small database especially for a stud-dog.


Interesting. I'm a retired computer programmer and I found it quite easy to use - and volunteered my time to help with data input at one point.

Perhaps some suggestions to those in control would help to make it easier?

Email   Website
Aug 11th, 2010 - 2:04 PM
s
Susan Mouw
Aug 11, 2010 - 2:09PM
Re: breeding a daughter of a bitch who produced TVD

Anon as well
Thank you. I too wish people REALLY cared about the breed and just didn't give lip service. We, current breeders, are the lifeline of our breed.

It is heart wrenching to have a lovely animal that you have your breeding program counting on to be TVD affected, or fail their OFA's, but it happens. We were in the same situation with CHD years ago and we have come a long way. Now it is just heart breaking when they fail their OFS's. We don't throw out the sire, dam or siblings from our breeding program. We are not scared of a failed hip as we are now educated. This is the same situation we now find ourselves in regarding TVD.

What did breeders do in the beginning with hip & elbows that failed? They (we) started and continue to, x-ray and evaluate the sire, dam, grandparents, siblings etc. We need to do the same with TVD...NOW.

So, learn the truth about TVD and stop spreading rumors and false information. If you don't have a thorough understanding of the problem the EDUCATE yourself. START being proactive and, as you can afford to, echo/doppler your breeding stock. And PLEASE submit your information. This helps us ALL.

As was mentioned, Labradata is a free and the only completely open database available. It is not based on hearsay or rumor. The evaluation report is available for viewing. We MUST start somewhere and we MUST start now.

Ok....I have said enough, but I think the breeders that really care about the breed will get on board - for the good of the Labrador breed.



Wish I knew who you were - I'd buy you a drink next time I saw you.

Email   Website
Aug 11th, 2010 - 2:09 PM
l
labradata admin
Aug 11, 2010 - 2:22PM
Re: LabraData

If you didn't make suggestions for improvement, then we can't address the problem. General complaining about the system (not user friendly, don't like it, etc.) are not constructive and the board can not use this for planning.

I hope you don't consider this also being jumped on... there is no malice intended. We just can't make improvements based on generic or hostile complaints. The LabraData board is here to serve you, so please participate - and not just on a discussion forum. The board address is the best place to send your comments or complaints. If you would genuinely like to make suggestions, please do so at the board email address. We all have an opportunity to review it that way.
board@labradata.org

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