Labrador Retriever Forum
I am looking for a nice well bred red fox red stud dog to breed to one of my girls
something like a gorgoeus fox red dog from the past- Tobasco
First of all, there are no good quality fox red stud dogs out there at present.
Secondly, why are you breeding for color? When someone breeds for color, it raises red flags (no pun intended)that the person has hopes of: 1. improving the breed in that specific color (legendary breeders like Sally Kelly have had limited success with this concept in 60 years of breeding Labradors!) 2. making a name for themselves, or 3. making money.
Breeding for color is what ignorant breeders did years ago with chocolates, and it took 30 years of dedicated, experienced breeders "undoing" or breeding out the unfavorable attributes of these restricted gene pool chocolate individuals. What I remember from chocolates at this time in history were: skin problems, hyperactivity, unthriftiness, bad temperament, lack of breed type, and poor coat.
Do you know enough about the color-linked traits of the fox reds to be able to make informed breeding decisions for the betterment of the breed? Or are you just interested in making some money off a litter with "unusual" color?
Thirdly, this Forum is not the place for stud dog inquiries for obvious reasons. What are those obvious reasons? If you have to ask, you do not have the experience for this undertaking.
Sorry to be blunt, but your post showed a lack of experience in the breed.
You need to post an email address to get responses.
If your bitch is fox red I would take her to Blaze at hyspire he produces fox red but he is black. Yeah you want get a whole litter of fox red but the ones you will get will be super.
http://www.littleriverlabs.com/willie.htm
Check out Penara labradors. She has a very nice male.
This post shows what is inherently wrong with anonymous posts. This poster is trying to make a statement at the same time she is trying to put down someone else's motives and also prove how intelligent they are.
Making assumptions to the motives of a breeder is not only poor communication, it shows very bad manners. Asking for some help with finding a stud dog is not akin to sinking the Lusitania.
Taking Sally Kelly to task on a public forum is way out of bounds.
And since "Dubious" is unashamedly trying to scold a breeder for asking a question, and such a good policeman for all forum rules and regulations, why does she stop here?
Dubious' broad assumptions about Fox Reds and even Chocolate shows a lot in her use of stereotypes and generalizations.
Dubious' rude behavior here and her wild accusations do nothing to help only to hurt.
Secondly, why are you breeding for color? When someone breeds for color, it raises red flags (no pun intended)that the person has hopes of: 1. improving the breed in that specific color (legendary breeders like Sally Kelly have had limited success with this concept in 60 years of breeding Labradors!) 2. making a name for themselves, or 3. making money.
Breeding for color is what ignorant breeders did years ago with chocolates, and it took 30 years of dedicated, experienced breeders "undoing" or breeding out the unfavorable attributes of these restricted gene pool chocolate individuals. What I remember from chocolates at this time in history were: skin problems, hyperactivity, unthriftiness, bad temperament, lack of breed type, and poor coat.
Do you know enough about the color-linked traits of the fox reds to be able to make informed breeding decisions for the betterment of the breed? Or are you just interested in making some money off a litter with "unusual" color?
Thirdly, this Forum is not the place for stud dog inquiries for obvious reasons. What are those obvious reasons? If you have to ask, you do not have the experience for this undertaking.
Sorry to be blunt, but your post showed a lack of experience in the breed.
I knew Penara made good food, I did not know they also bred labradors.........
kidding
Well if we are naming names lets include Judy McCormick at Keepsake and Salley at Kelleygreen who started the Fox Reds in the U.S.
Secondly, why are you breeding for color? When someone breeds for color, it raises red flags (no pun intended)that the person has hopes of: 1. improving the breed in that specific color (legendary breeders like Sally Kelly have had limited success with this concept in 60 years of breeding Labradors!) 2. making a name for themselves, or 3. making money.
Breeding for color is what ignorant breeders did years ago with chocolates, and it took 30 years of dedicated, experienced breeders "undoing" or breeding out the unfavorable attributes of these restricted gene pool chocolate individuals. What I remember from chocolates at this time in history were: skin problems, hyperactivity, unthriftiness, bad temperament, lack of breed type, and poor coat.
Do you know enough about the color-linked traits of the fox reds to be able to make informed breeding decisions for the betterment of the breed? Or are you just interested in making some money off a litter with "unusual" color?
Thirdly, this Forum is not the place for stud dog inquiries for obvious reasons. What are those obvious reasons? If you have to ask, you do not have the experience for this undertaking.
Sorry to be blunt, but your post showed a lack of experience in the breed.
I am not a novis breeder. I have been breeding for about 12 + years as a hobby show breeder, I share the same goal-to improve the breed. I do not need a lecture on breeding ethics.
I have a really nice well bred female from top lines on both sides. She is beautiful, more of a med shade of yellow. I talked to a fox red breeder a few years ago, and she said I stand a chance at getting something nice if we breed my girl to a fox red. They may not be fox red puppies, but close.
I am interested in breeding her to a well bred fox red stud dog that is a good as she is, and that has the power to reproduce well.
There was a stunning fox red in the days of old, His name was English SH CH Wynfaul Tabasco, and he was awesome looking dog with good confirmation.
There was an article by Sally Kelly about fox reds in the LQ a few years ago, and Tabasco was in the write up. I think he was a great grandson of of Ch Balrion King Frost.
And yes, I would love to have a well bred fox red in my breeding program.
If I had made this uninformed, judgmental post, I would not have put my name on it either.
Several breeders had been trying to bring back the fox red shade of yellow over the years, among them:
Sally Kelley......Kelleygreen
Judy McCormick.....Keepsake
Sally Bell........Borador
Pam Doubek........Penara
Eleonore Diehr....Elkens
Us................Little River
While no Labrador is perfect, I must say that the fox red shade is particularly challenging. All the breeders mentioned above have/had this shade as just a part of their breeding program with black, the normal shades of yellow and sometimes chocolate as the main part. Each shared the common goal of bring back and improving the gene pool. Overall the blood lines are fairly healthy, most possess a high degree of retrieving ability, and the conformation is improving slowly but surely. This can be seen by the recent success of one of Eleonore's girls who just lacks a few singles to finish. She will be the first girl of this shade ever to finish her AKC championship. Thanks to some of the breeders listed, the shade is starting to get some help by breeders in both Europe and Scandinavia who are now working with the shade.
To answer the OP's question, generally speaking going down the fox red trail can be very narrow and curvy. The choices can be slim and progress slow but they are not just limited to only fox red boys. A dominant black with a very strong bitch line is also a very good choice. The resulting puppies will of course be all black but will carry the fox red shade.
Gregg named them.
I extend my thanks and congratulations to the good people who are trying to breed fox reds. It can't happen by accident. Think about the chocolates 20 years ago and look at them now.
Did you ever see Tobasco in person? He was a nice enough dog and a good, dark color, but he was not the "best" dog of his time. Do yourself a favor before breeding for color. Actually LOOK at photos or talk to people who had hands on some of the foundation fox-reds in this country. Those dogs of the past were not at all the "style" of what is in the ring today in this country. If you are hoping to produce show-potential pups that are competetive in the USA, you don't want a stud that looks like Tobasco or any of his sons!
Thank you....my point precisely. The fox-reds that are competetive in THIS country today do not look like Tobasco or Red Alert. If he wants winners, the OP needs to breed to the style of dogs available TODAY in the USA, not aspire to studs like Tobasco. Of course, if he wants to breed classic type Labradors for his own enjoyment, then that is another kettle of fish. Some people want the latest model car, others prefer the old classics.
To 20 yr breeder, if you look Gregg came in the middle of the discussion, check the times. So they were not mentioned at the time.
from what I understand, if i breed my yellow girl to a fox red or black that produces fox red, I may stand a chance at getting a puppy that would carry the red gene, or would all of them carry the fox red gene.
blacks & yellows & chocolates are some what better now than they were in the past (I like more bone, coat, and substance, and nice big head pieces that we have today)
But, I prefer shorter coupled dogs, that are well put together vs dogs that are long in body, short legs, out of proportion.
I have seen several pics of Tobasco, and he was a stunning boy. I like the fact he was shorter coupled, and I love his beautiful expression.
Different anyway
Yes, he was shorter coupled AND longer in leg than most Labs in this country today. Red Alert even more so. I saw both of them in England many years ago. I would have liked a bit more angulation. Many of the reds today have straighter rears (less turn of stifle) than the other colors due to this heritage.
If you post your email address, I'm sure you will get some private replies with photos from those who have nice reds available at stud.
I just wanted to point out that there already was a modern day Fox Red colored AKC champion, Keepsake's Cajun, owned by Sally Bell, earned his championship just a few years ago and is the second Fox Red colored AKC Champion in AKC's history.
I've met a lot of Sally Bell's fox reds and they are exceptionally NICE dogs, wonderful labrador temperaments and structure with deep, rich color.
Cajun was by far one of the nicest labradors I ever had the pleasure of knowing.
Secondly, why are you breeding for color?
You don't breed for color? You don't know or care whether your black bitch carries chocolate or yellow? You don't know or care what color your stud dog is and what he carries? Don't be silly. We all breed for color whether it's to get yellow, black, or chocolate or to get our favorite shade of yellow or chocolate.
Ch. Keepsake Red Star Rising was shown in Breed at Potomac yesterday - nice boy!
