I am curious about how fellow breeders feel about a dog being sent back to them. If a dog was purchased as a show prospect and didn't turn out would you as a breeder be upset with someone wanting to send them back (if you demanded them be sent back rather than being sold)? TIA and positive only please

I'd take any of my progeny back,of course.I'd rather rehome the dog myself,than chance it ending up making "doodles"or sub-standard puppies somewhere!I call them show "hopefuls" here.You never know how they'll turn out.It's a crap-shoot,even with all we do to produce good ones.Mother nature is known to throw curve balls.

anyone I would sell a full registration dog to as a potential show dog I would have a good degree in trust. So in that case, I would trust them to place the dog with good judgement and the dogs interest at heart.

But I would want to be informed of the decision and would always take any pup / dog back if that is what they prefer.....not always going to give a full refund, it depends on circumstances and what the contract states.

your paragraph is so vague hard to give you a good scenario opinion.

There is a situation happening right now, where after hearing all of the owner's concerns, the breeder said of course he can come back. Contract states she has to pay to ship him back, along with all health certificates, etc. Owner states over and over how he is not show quality, judges just don't like him and how can she get anyone to use him. ( Even tries to lease him out to people in an attempt to get him used.) BUT wants to retain breeding rights . Owner changes her mind, because she wants money and the breeder to pay. Breeder say fine and pays shipping costs. Then when she tries to make plans for him to come home is called a Bully. Owner finally sends the dog back and doesn't even call to check on his flight status or if he arrived safely. This is a perfect testament to why we should not sell Full registrations to people who have been in Labradors for all of 5 minutes. They want instant success and not have to work and breed to achieve it. All of us have run on puppies that do not turn out to what we would have liked. Why do these buyers think they would be different. It is all a crap shoot.

Am I reading you correctly, he isn't good enough for her to keep, but she wants to breed him???????????????? Oh brother!

Yes, when we keep one for ourselves we are taking a chance. It is a crap shot. And you are right some of the newer breeder expect it to be perfect if they pay for a show dog. If I get one from another breeder am taking my chances. Not asking for money back, another dog. Will offer dog back to breeder. But if okay, will rehome and keep moving forward. That why we hate to offer on full registration.

Did you sign a contract? If you signed a contract stating that if the dog needs to be re-homed that the dog is to be sent back to the breeder then this is *not* demanding. You signed the contract, therefore you accept the conditions.

How did the dog fail as a show prospect? Did you try showing them? Maybe you dont know how to handle and need some lessons? Or a handler that knows how to make your dog look good? Were they conditioned? Sometimes dogs just dont turn out as well as we planned, and so you move on, return the dog and accept the truth.

Wow, you have got to be kidding me! So the dog wasnt good enough for her? But good enough to lease to other breeders? If I was going to lease a dog out, I would certainly hope that he is the best I have! Or was it just for the money?

She didnt like the dog but she wanted to lease him to other breeders? Thats rather silly, I would only lease dogs out to breeders if they were one of the best dogs I had... because this dog is representing not only you but the breeder of the dog.

Sure it wasnt just to get money?

That's why I do not sell show puppies to people I can't trust. I must either know them, or they better bring 3 references from known breeders and one from their vet. It is not worth the headache and usually the dogs are the ones to take the worst part.

Do you know the person that bought this dog from the breeder?? Do you know the situation first hand? It is a crap shoot. You don't know what you are going to get. It would be nice if every show prospect turned out but odds are they don't It sounds like the buyer wanted to send the dog back because it wasn't turning out as a show prospect. Maybe they couldn't afford to use it to breed and then hope that it's offspring would work out. Some people can only keep so many dogs to run on at their house. If they don't turn out then sometimes they have to make the decision to let them go. That is the hard thing about having dogs that have to "pull their weight". We can't all keep the ones that don't turn out as pets

Some breeders take advantage of these newbies that you say want instant success. They place mediocre puppies or dump dogs on new people who don't really know what they are getting. They tell the newbie that this is a "show quality dog" and get them all interested just so they can sell the dog to them. Meanwhile most of the time the dog is not much at all. Would you sell your pick bitch to a newbie wanting a show prospect or even your second pick? I think not!! There is nothing wrong with a little expectation when buying something you are paying a high price for and led to believe it is a dog of a higher quality that "should" be competitive.

I have one right now that should have never been sold as a show prospect. The breeder does not want the dog back and now I have to rehome it. I have done my part to make the best of what little I have been working with in getting this dog points by putting it with a handler. The breeder was just to kennel blind to accept this should have been a pet all along. I took it on and tried to make it work only to come to it not passing a needed clearance. Now what? I have paid high dollars for the puppy, put my money in to it and I have nothing but a pet to place for another breeder now. IMO a breeder should take back their failed show prospect and rehome it themselves. Replace the puppy or refund the money.

Wow thanks. I think sometimes people get offended when their "show prospects" they sold don't turn out. So hard to tell and since no one has a crystal ball you never know what will happen. To IMHO do you know if the breeder refunded the money spent on this dog? Do you know how long the buyer had the dog? Do you know if the breeder was helpful with the buyer to try to show the dog? If there was no refund given do you think they wanted the breedings so they might have something to show for the money? Just curious sounds like you are giving 2nd hand information

Someone in our area bought a show prospect from a very well know breeder. . They bred her a few times and then decided she wasn't working out and shipped her across country to the well known breeder. I thought it was really low...course this is the same person who takes deposits from puppy buyers and when her bitch misses won't give back the deposit. Low class.

How about when a well known breeder judge sells a 2 year old "show quality" with prelims. After getting the dog and spending 6K with a handler and 2 points we take the dog in for finals and fails clearances that would never had passed prelims. I ask for prelims copies from breeder and was given bogus handmade reports. The breeder says give back the dog and you will get a replacement. Years later still no replacement and the breeder stopped returning phone calls shortly after taking back the dog. I am out thousands and no dog. What would you do?

To IMHO - Sounds like someone wants to have their cake and eat it too! Shame on them for not being concerned about the animals safe arrival!!

if you are out thousands of dollars take her to court

If you feel this was completely wrong and you want your money back then take the time and effort and use the legal system.

I am a "newbie" and was graciously blessed with a show potential, beautiful bitch puppy from an outstanding litter. Due to orthopedic issues, this puppy did not turn out to be a show dog, but never in my wildest dreams would I expect a refund nor a replacement puppy. Show potential is just that- potential- no way a guarantee. But then again, I'm one of those "pet people" who actually love their dogs enough to keep them as couch warmers. While I dabble in showing and breeding, my dogs are first, foremost, and most importantly, the loves of my life and they don't have to pay their own way in order to have forever spots on my couch.

In answer to some of the questions, contracts are a beautiful thing. If you aren't willing to agree with it after two years, why did you sign it when you got your puppy. The said puppy was a youngster who had already started to be shown. This was not just a crap shoot with an 8 wk. old puppy. Nothing was owed! The breeders contract stated that the dog had to be returned and purchaser was to pay return shipping costs if they no longer wanted him. The newbies want instant success. They don't want to work as hard as all of us have to get where we are today. Many people run on 2 puppies and then place the one that doesn't fit into THEIR programs. That doesn't mean it is sloppy seconds. I just don't understand why you would want to breed a dog, that you claim in the same email, that breeders around you aren't interested in using him. We have all cried many tears for puppies who didn't work out. We had to go back to the drawing board and try again.

Lesson: If you sign a contract, you are obligated to live up to it or risk going to court. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE RULES HALF WAY THROUGH THE GAME!!!!

The sad thing about it all was that there are breeders like this one, that wanted to help a "newbie". The newbie played it out that they wanted to get their feet wet in the show ring. However the "newbie" wanted INSTANT success with their "show prospect". But I am sure they expect that with all of their current co-ownerships. No breeder can guarantee that a dog will turn out, or guarantee that a dog will do well on the other side of the country with very limited showing.

Why should any breeder be responsible for helping with handling fees, vet bills etc when they were kind enough to give this person one of their males out of a wonderful litter? The breeder themselves are taking a risk, on their picks, investing so much money (food + show entries + handling fees + travel expenses etc etc etc etc ), is anyone refunding them? No. It is ALL PART of this hobby!

If you sign an agreement with someone, stick to it! If you arent happy with a dog when they arrive, send them home. But I am sure you would go see the dog in person before you travel them across country... it would only make sense... right?

Are you suggesting that you should not have to return a dog to it's breeder? I feel very strongly that dogs should be offered back to their breeder first! Doesn't have to be for free, the cost you paid for the dog. I recently tried to purchase a dog I bred back and the owner refused to sell it to me and the co-owners. I simply wanted the dog I bred back so that I could determine what was in it's best interest from there. How insulting and heartbreaking to find out the dog was given away rather than letting me buy him back. If a breeder trust you enough to let a dog come to you than why would you think you should do anything other than show them some respect and offer the dog back to them? It's called right of first refusal! Most breeders put it in their contract. In my case the dog in question was a stud fee puppy and I thought I could trust the person and did not have them sign a contract. Lesson learned.

"show for the money"? Show for what money? For the couple shows that maybe the dog was shown to? As a later poster stated, if you buy a show prospect, unless it is in the contract stating the expenses are split, YOU as the BUYER are responsible for all expenses. It is not the breeders fault that the dog was not shown to the best of the dogs ability. Was the breeder notified first hand that the dog was being offered to several handlers and breeders? Most likely not. As Liz Martin stated as well - most breeders put in their contract "first right of refusal". Unfortunately, newbies like this one ruin it for the rest of the newbies.

Can you please explain what first right of refusal means? I always thought it meant that if a buyer of a puppy (or dog) decides that dog (or puppy) is not working out that the breeder has 1st right to purchase the dog back. If the breeder does not choose to purchase the dog back then the buyer would be then able to sell the dog to whom ever they want. Is that not right?? Also a question for Sara. It is great that your pups that don't turn out as show prospects become couch warmers and lifetime pets but how many dogs that don't turn out could you/would you keep?

Is this thread about you? If not sounds like you know a lot about this "person" Did the buyer ask you to pay for handling fees or vet bills? Was this, male I am assuming, on a co-own or was it sold outright? If you are the breeder and stated 1st right of refusal did you give a refund at all to the buyer that sent the dog back? Why be upset that the buyer chose to return the dog to you? Don't most breeders state that any dog they breed is always gladly excepted back to their kennel? It seems that the buyer was doing what was in the contract. Send the dog back if it didn't work out. How long did the person have the dog? How many shows did they go to? Did they ask your help? So many questions.

Lots of issues here:
1. IMHO knows someone who is trying to shop her dog around to everyone and their brother in an attempt to get him used. If that person thinks breeders are going to use an unfinished dog with a dodgy show record then they are dreaming. Very few dogs get used AT ALL, let alone frequently, by reputable breeders. Of course there are those stud dog owners that happily let their dog be used by all comers, but that is a different topic for a different day.
2. This person thinks that their "Show potential puppy" hasn't worked out. Well welcome to the wonderful world of dogs. It happens ALL the time! It is the rare dog/bitch that does turn out to be a true show prospect. I cringe when I see what people pawn off as show prospects. Or even keep themselves as show prospects, or even worse BREED as show prospects! It is most often rookies selling to rookies. For one of those puppies to work out in the ring is akin to being struck by lightening.
What do responsible people do when *they* make a mistake and buy a show puppy prospect that doesn't work out for one reason or another (health/conformation) why they suck it up, learn from it, and MOVE ON. Whining to all your friends and forums because you made a mistake (It is your job to educate yourself on conformation, contracts, and study pedigrees and make an educated purchase and then owning your choice) won't help move you forward.
3. Return the dog if there is a right of first refusal or place it if not. Be done with the whole thing and move on. All of us have had dogs wash out. It is what happens when we are working with living things. Like it or not, it is what is referred to as "paying your dues."
4. If you are in this to make money or even break even you are in for a long sorry road. Playing in the dog world and being successful is a long haul and very expensive game. Dog farming, where you expect your dogs to be used and produce, well that is a much shorter road, but don't look for a lot of sympathy from respected breeders if that is your chosen path.
5. AND to the OP here is my positive answer to your question: The world of dogs isn't always positive and little spinning smilie faces doesn't make it so. YES if the breeder said they wanted the dog back they should take it back, but if they don't respond in a reasonable length of time, just place it in a good home and be done with it (unless the contract stipulates otherwise, first and foremost follow your contract). Assume the risk we all make when we buy a LIVING thing. You don't get your money back, you learn from your mistake and you move on. Oh and the best lesson you may have learned from this is who NOT to do business with in the future and that is priceless!

Ok, let me direct my response back to the original post, and this is exactly what they asked:

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I am curious about how fellow breeders feel about a dog being sent back to them. If a dog was purchased as a show prospect and didn't turn out would you as a breeder be upset with someone wanting to send them back (if you demanded them be sent back rather than being sold)?

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Not only would I NOT be upset with someone bringing the dog back to me, but I would be thrilled. My contract does state that the dog is to be returned to me (for a full refund) or that I approve of any subsequent home that the dog goes to. I much prefer to know where dogs of my breeding have ended up and to screen the homes. Especially if the dog was sold by me to someone far away, possibly in another country, then they want to sell the dog, I like to at least be part of the process and know where the dog is going to be, especially given that I take full responsibility for the life of the dog, so might find myself having to bring the dog home from a shelter or rescue, if the home, screened by the person who bought the dog from me, doesn't pan out. And who knows, maybe with some training and conditioning, I'll find that dog does well in the show ring. But it's my prerogative to make that decision, especially if the dog was sold on a co-own, and the person signed the contract agreeing to all this in the first place.

You Go Sara!!! I am of the same opinion.

"1. IMHO knows someone who is trying to shop her dog around to everyone and their brother in an attempt to get him used. If that person thinks breeders are going to use an unfinished dog with a dodgy show record then they are dreaming. Very few dogs get used AT ALL, let alone frequently, by reputable breeders."

Show wins have NOTHING to do with a dog who can produce well. There have been dogs over the years who never finished a Ch title or even gotten a major win that were excellent producers. You may be missing out on a great breeding by passing up on a dog that is right for your bitch just because it isn't a "show dog".

This thread illustrates why I never sell a puppy to people who only want to show. I am fortunate to have working titles on my dogs that make them desirable for other reasons. I always make sure that I know what the people will do with the dog if it doesn't work out as a show dog. If they want to do field work or obedience and will be content with a dog that may not work out in the show ring but will allow them to pursue other interests, then they would get a puppy. If they just wanted to win specialties- well, they probably wouldn't come to me in the first place- but if that were the case, I'd send them elsewhere.

I would be happy to take take back one of my puppies. Two co-owned dogs were returned to me when they were about one year in age. I returned the purchase price for one; the other is still co-owned on paper. I kept them both. Both became Master Hunters and both were conformation pointed. I was lucky to get them both back.

I wish the breeder of my young dog thought like you. I had to do the placement myself. He wouldn't pay shipping and offered no refund.

He knew he sold me a pet quality pup from beginning but called it show quality.

I consider it part of my responsibilities to make sure that not only will the people who buy my puppies treat them well but that the puppy will be appropriate for their needs and desires. If they want a dog that they can show, that's fine, but I insist that the dog will be first and foremost a companion and family member. You don't send a family member back because it doesn't make it in the show ring. So far I have not sold a puppy to anyone who wants to win that badly. The dogs who were returned to me were returned for entirely different reasons. I may have a different attitude from your breeder, but my puppy buyers also have a different attitude from you, which is not to say that your attitude is bad, only that we are not a good match, and you should not buy a puppy from me. I sell very few puppies to show homes.

Good luck, however, on finding a breeder who will guarantee that a puppy will make it in the show ring. I would certainly have taken the pup back, but I would have expected you to pay for the shipping, and I would not have refunded your purchase price. If you were expecting the breeder to do that, I think you need to rethink. If you want a guaranteed winner, suck it up and buy an older dog at a bigger price. About 50% of the dogs I have purchased as possible show dogs have finished their championship (which is probably a fairly high percentage), and two purchased dogs who are the backbone of my breeding program did not earn any points.