After having a few days of looking at beautiful spotlight ads I decided to start looking deeper into a few boys. How disappointing that stud dog owners are misleading. I found one boy who is advertised as "CERF Clear" but when looking at the CERF on OFA the dog has entropian. Yes, I know that's a breeder option but in my mind a "clear" is a dog that is marked normal/normal. What do others think? It was a reminder to me that as much as I want to trust people it's always up to me to double check the clearances!

It is shameful considering I was not made aware of the status of the stud dog. His entropian was concealed. That simple fact is essential in making breeding decisions. It is one thing to decide to pass on a stud dog because of his hip score or his EIC status, but concealing entropian is horrendous.

It was revealed in a horrid way, our pick of the litter had a weeping eye and confirmed entropian. You can imagine our feelings having to place a very nice bitch sired by this boy. The cost for the surgery and the frustration of going backward in a breeding program.

The saddest part is not my one girl being sent to a pet home. The saddest part is the vast amount of stud dog owners concealing these types of issues making rationalizing it as not life-threatening. Any information is valuable in choosing stud services.

JMO of course but there is nothing unethical about saying the stud dog is clear, he did not flunk........again, JMO.

Stud info should have read "CERF with breeder option Dx. It is misleading and just becasue it has a CERF # does not mean it is "CLEAR". JMHO here, too!!!

I think this is why anyone who does a breeding should verify clearances and do their homework. For things like epilepsy, it can be difficult to verify and one does have to rely on the stud dog owner to be honest. But for things like hips, elbows, eyes, PRA, CNM, EIC, and hearts (at least for the dogs themselves), FINAL clearances can and should be verified regardless of who the stud dog owner is. Puppy buyers should verify clearances regardless of who the breeder is. No breeder/stud owner who is ethical is going to be put out by this. The ones who are put out by it or who make excuses are the ones to avoid.

It is one thing to go into a breeding with full knowledge of the issues (knowingly breeding to an unclear elbow or into a line that has produced heart issues); it is another to go into it blindly because either no one did their homework or one party was dishonest.

I know a breeder whose pup needed elbow surgery - she was outraged that the stud dog owner did not disclose he had an unclear elbow. Most of us in the area know that not only does he not have an elbow clearance, but neither does his dam (nor does her littermate or grandsire), who has produced numerous unclear elbows. Any request for OFA paperwork would have produced that tidbit of info - a check of the OFA website would have raised concerns as well. But the stud dog owner is a well known breeder and a big winner and the assumption was made that there was no need to verify anything. I think it is always best to verify because every breeder has their own view on what is important and what is not, and I would not want others making that decision for me or my puppy homes.

Of course that does not excuse people from being dishonest or misleading. Yes, the dog is technically clear but I think that they are blowing over an issue that they should know would be an issue for others. I have a dog with punctate cataracts, and while I personally do not consider that to be an issue, it is not my place to make that decision for others. I list that my dogs are CERF'd annually and send the CERF to OFA- that way people can check the CERF for breeder options and verify clearances.

A dog’s CERF status can be verified by asking the stud dog owner for a copy of either the exam report or the CERF registration paper. Either will show you (the bitch owner) whether the dog was “normal/normal” or just got a number and had a breeder option diagnosis.

The question of whether advertising as CERF clear is misleading – probably to newbies. Is it unethical – maybe, but that’s a stretch. It depends on your perspective. It’s up to the bitch owner, the person ultimately responsible for the breeding, to verify everything before the breeding occurs.
To “Clear?” – nothing was concealed. You failed to perform due diligence to check out the dog you were breeding to.

IMHO I’d like to think CERF clear means nothing was found on the latest exam, but I know better.

"To “Clear?” – nothing was concealed. You failed to perform due diligence to check out the dog you were breeding to."

Thanks Marti for your opinion. It was highly unethical. The stud dog in question had received surgery then went on to finish his akc ch. this is not only unethical but against the akc rules.

I might have failed to perform due diligence, but rest assured, the facts speak volumes on the ethics and stature of this stud dog owner.

I want to be clear I'm not sure what dog is being referenced by others. My comment was directed at a potential stud listed this month. Guess there's more than one person out there concealing entropian!

We ended up with 3 entropions in one litter and 1 in another, litters whelped within days of each other. It was an expensive fix and something I believe should be paid for by the breeder of the litter. Imagine paying $1000 for a new puppy, family takes it home only to find out their precious bundle has entropion 3 weeks later when eyes start watering and eyes are squinting. I had to shell out $4000.00 that year. My moral of story is, bitch owners need to do their homework on health clearances and don't assume the stud dog owner is going to tell you all the nity grity details of what is behind their boys.
bitch owners need to be honest with stud dog owners as well. They can't help you improve your own lines if you aren't upfront about your own dog's genetics.

I also find it misleading when a spotlight dog is listed plainly as a Ch to find out it is not an akc title.

I too was bit by entropion. Had a nice litter and was going to run on one bitch until I found out the stud dogs litter mate had TVD, and the stud himself had entropion, had surgery and finished his championship after surgery. One of the pups I had also had entropion. When I visited with stud owner and asked her if these things were true, she admitted to them. I asked why she did not tell me. Her exact quote was "You did not ask". So now when I make stud inquiries, not only do I do intense pedigree research, I visit with other folks who have bred to the stud and then give the poor stud dog owner the fifth degree when inquiring. Trust is not alwaysa good thing...don't be afraid to ask questions. After all we are the ones deciding to bring these pups into the world, and I know I am responsible for them their entire life whether they live with me or not.

If we are going to be talking about a genetic disorder, can we at least spell it correctly? It is entropion. Thank you.

I have had the same thing happen... and sad thing is they don't think of the puppies who will be affected and will need surgery. And when I told her about most of the litter having that problem never offered any information... but here to find talking to others/vets that have fixed the issue for them it is in these lines and they continue to breed those dogs without anyone knowing about it.... so sad.

I would agree with you, knowing this additional info. If you know the surgery was performed prior to the "clear" ACVO exam, and can prove it in some way, report the individual to the board of directors of their regional club. This is surely against any club's code of ethics and could result in expulsion from the club. At a minimum, a letter of complaint would make it known to others, if they don't already know. I don't know what the recourse is in regard to AKC.

Oh come on - do you think the US is the only country? Do you write "AKC CH" in front of every finished dog you own? The owners of that dog live in Canada - the dog is finished in Canada, so I see nothing wrong with them advertising their dog as a champion where they live!

So does anyone think that maybe the dog is "Clear" meaning NO cataracts or genetic defects? What about a stud dog that has allergies to pollen that goes in with eyes that are bothered? You wouldn't say that a person has pink eye if they go in for an eye exam and have pink/red eyes right? Some dogs may have been exposed to something they aren't used to, or have issues with the sun in their eyes before they go into the Canine Opthimologist?? JMHO but sometimes the bitch owner needs to check all the reasons that the dog may have Entropion... It may be spiratic (sp?) entropion and if it is a real bothersome then call the Opthimologist about it. Again JMHO

Oh thank you for the correction. Now the discussion makes so much more sense.

LOL!!!! Isn't that the truth!!! Yes, people do your homework. Look at all the angles. Like one stud dog, has all the clearances, but father and a sibling doesn't have elbows-hmmm. That stud dog, I would really have to think hard about using

Well, here we go again. People will assume it is a AKC Champion. It should be listed as Can. Ch., which it is, not just Ch., so people think it is a AKC Champion. That might make a difference in someone's preference in what type of Ch. they want to breed to.
There is a difference in AKC and Canadian Ch., so yes, this is not being truthful, JMO

I havr not had any problems with entropion. It sounds terribly expensive to resolve. Is this something that is noted on the CERF exam?

You will at some point if you unknowingly breed into it. I did and this was after 25 yrs too. Thank God only 1 in a litter of 9 was afflicted. Poor thing looked like she dunked her head into a water bucket all the time!

This is a horrible, costly and can be medically serious for the pup who inherits it. Yes, it is indeed highly a heritable condition. I wish CERF wouldn't even allow it. For the pet owner who may not have the $$ to help the pup, the pain that pup is in. Just get something in your eye and never get it out. You too, would tear and eventually your cornea could become so lacerated. Have you ever had a cornea abrasion? Let me tell you, they are so very very painful.

To fix the dog's eyes, raise it up, finish its championship and then breed from it is plain wrong and unethical in my books.

I haven't had it either. I do know of breeders that have had it and it is so sad. These breeders had the surgery on the puppies and then placed them in pet homes. Not one of them had the eye's fixed and finished the dog. That is horrible and so unethical! I would think that if anyone told the AKC about this, they would take away the dogs Ch. title. That is just the lowest a person can stoop to. Wow, what people will do to get a Champion and pollute other blood lines that use this stud dog! Wow

I absolutely agree! Can. Ch. would make it clear that the dog is not an Am. Ch. There is a difference.

if the entropeon is repaired, he or she can get a CERF certificate, but not allowed to be shown in akc shows

that is not false advertisement

if we ALL ditch everything that is not "perfect" and i am talking about TEMPERAMENT, as well as conformation, and soundness, we will have nothing.

and as long as we keep breeding to get the big head pieces, entropeon will pop up

It may not be inaccurate that the dog CERF'd clear after the repair, but it is certainly something the stud dog owner should disclose, regardless of whether or not they are specifically asked. A clear CERF gives one the assumption the dog is not (nor has ever been) affected.

Being honest allows people to make informed breeding decisions. I think everyone realizes there are no perfect dogs, but they should be aware of what specific issues they are likely to deal with given the health of the parents.

Well worded and stated. I agree.

The problem is not everyone is honest so we must check up on everything unless we know the breeder exceptionally well for alot of years. Honesty means the world to me in the breed and any other venues of life and friendships.

As for this particular dog or dogs, I think there are 2 different dogs breeders are discussing. There was also an Am Ch with similar entropian problems. JMHO.

Finger pointing is so easy but just how constructive is this discussion? First of all, I haven't the foggiest idea who the dog is that some of you are referring to... and I'm not trying to find out.

We are breeders on this list. Some of us want to read before we learn our alphabet. It is our decision to choose a stud dog out of a hat, to bring innocent puppies into this world, to farm them on unknowing families... and then to scream blue murder if the perfection is chipped!

After making sure where our bitch stands health wise, the one obligation we all have before breeding is to make sure we are holding copies of all the dog's clearances, and that we have READ them. There is a measure of guesswork in any breeding, but it should at least be educated guesswork. If we have failed to do this, then maybe we have failed our duty! There are some hidden disorders in our breed and we cannot guess at atopy, hyperactivity or epilepsy. But surely a certificate which clearly states "breeder's option" for entropion cannot be considered unethical just because you couldn't be bothered to consult it.

In my case I have generations of my bitch line and have never seen it.... sometimes studs dogs you chalk it up as a bad combo.

However, having a litter of almost all with the problem it is heartbreaking and now I know to stay far way from those lines.

This post is talking about multiple stud dogs not just one.

And doing your so called research... well if the stud dogs eyes have been altered and they don't honestly put on the CERF papers the problem then you will not know until the puppies are suffering.

People need to be honest so that we can all have healthy puppies moving forward... but honesty seems to be out the window. Perfect reason why I choose not to selectively use this stud dog or this stud dog. Getting one and breeding to all your girls is safer in my opinion. When he is done... get another one.

That is true unless the breeder's option is no longer listed because the eyes were repaired - the dog will CERF clear on subsequent exams. At that point, the certificate is meaningless.

The OP writes, "I found one boy who is advertised as "CERF Clear" but when looking at the CERF on OFA the dog has entropian."

Good grief!!!! It is on the OFA database. That is about as public as you can get. Use the dog if that is OK with you. If it is not OK with you, move on.

If that is where you think this thread was going, then may I suggest you go back to the initial post, which was already narrowed down to a handful of Spotlight Dogs.

"...I found one boy who is advertised as "CERF Clear" but when looking at the CERF on OFA the dog has entropian. """

Without making a direct accusation aimed at one dog by name, it cannot get more specific than that!!! Yet the info was apparently on a public data base. You are of course aware that unilateral entropion does not necessarily have a genetic cause. Everybody on this list has a telephone and a computer - grievances can be handled in a much more adult fashion. Public accusations usually teach us a lot more about the person who is squealing.........

Think this dog was lined up with breedings way before information came out. Think it was forced out.
Know others knew before alot who bred to the dog knew. Do your research. I do know of two nice stud dogs that are passing it. Don't blame everything on the dog. But if the breeders see it and never had it before in the females lines and are compairing notes. Am just saying. Just be honest. The same with the heart stuff. See same dogs used again and again. Ask the questions. If the stud owner gets mad, run.

Common sense tells you that a dog with loose skin and deep set eyes that appear small could have this problem. So breed to a dog with a clean head and more prominent eye. It is a conformational fault. Heads are getting very incorrect and it would be good for poeple to give them as much attention as the rest of the dog. Why not choose away from the heads that have loose skin, hanging flews, and small deep set eyes even if they are the big winners of the day.

Entropian is not an eye problem but a conformation problem. As per Dr Gus Acguirre. When you look for a stud dog and see the deep set eyes, sagging skin on the face and forehead, it is time to think that that skin is going to roll in to cause a problem. It is a conformation problem. Why don't you all get it. Now some puppies may have this problem but, as they grow, the problem may clear. The vet can sometimes tack the lid and, as the puppy grows it will correct. However why don't you look at what you are breeding to rather than what show that dog won. I would think you all should be growing up and getting smarter. But, doesn't seem so. People spend money to advertise their stud dogs, and, if you don't like the dog, don't use it. Seems to me that you all have a PHD in checking on everything possible and just are here to trash. DON'T THEY HAVE FIREWORKS IN YOUR TOWN. BETTER THAT THIS THIS CRAP RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED ELLIE

Dear Nasty, oops I mean, Nice Ellie, please, before you go off on a rant about something, can you at least SPELL the disorder properly? It's entropion. Just like hip or elbow dysplasia (not displacia). Thank you.

If it were as simple as that, why have I seen the occasional dog that is Dxd w/ entropion very late in life, presumably after a number of CERFs? Just wondering....

That was a test to check your investigative powers. Better to go watch the fireworks. nice ellis

You will have to consult with Dr Acquirre about that. I know that allergies can cause problems with the eye and old age can cause saggy skin. Being 80, I know this from the horse's mouth? nice ellis

Dry eye can also cause entropion to develop later in life. Have one here right now. 13 years old. Dry eye developed at age of 9 and entropion a year later.

Hmmmmm....your story sounds EXACTLY like mine. Bred my gorgeous MBISS bitch, 4 puppies in her litter had entropion, obvious entropion, by 8 weeks of age. The cost of repair was tremendous on all these puppies. I think the least the stud owner could have done was refunded my stud fee since it was a KNOWN issue in the stud dog and his bloodline. The more time goes by and the more I think about it the more ticked off I get. Wasted a whole breeding on my bitch, wasted money shipping semen, wasted stud fee, wasted more money fixing puppies that didn't deserve to have this done to them and all because "I didn't ask", pretty shitty if you ask me!

I spoke to Jeffrey E. Bowersox, DVM, DACVO--Veterinary Ophthalmologist, in Delaware several years ago. I have a girl who CERF'd who has very mild entropion that often presented like ectropion. (her lower lid rolls in a little because it is shorter than her upper lid, and then because of the irritation, it droops) Dr Bowersox told me that it is fairly common in Labs for the upper eyelid and the lower eyelid to be of different lengths, which can cause the shorter lower lid to roll in. I was surprised that this dog CERF'd and cleared by several Ophthalmologists.

it appears that the lines with strong heads may produce entropeon ever now & then, but not entire litters.

are we not supposed to keep the best ones for ourselves, and place the others in pet homes.

or are we breeding just for pet homes.

Is our goal to improve in every area- type, temperament, soundness?

If we breed for eyes only, we will loose type, and create PET QUALITY dogs.

Let's get back to the real purpose of this thread

You are absolutely right about double checking clearances.

I have always been up front about all of my dogs' clearances, but I have had 2 bitch owners lie to me about their girls that I caught later when litters were on the ground. One failed hips and one failed elbows (not grade ones either). Both bitch owners lied to me before the breeding by saying their bitches passed Hip/Elbows and I didn't check up on their stories.

When I first began offering boys at stud I insisted on having copies of all clearances before shipping semen. I also would look up OFA records on the girls brought to my boys.

Time passed and my boys got more popular, there are times when they bred to 3 or 4 bitches in the same week.(not always that busy, but we've been that busy before) I also work full time and occassionally have a litter here to take care of. The first thing that slipped between the cracks was verifying bitch clearances. After all, who would breed a bitch with hip dysplasia? Who would breed a bitch with bilateral grade 2 elbows?

Now I know at least 2 bitch owners who would.

I am a bitch owner as well as a stud owner with multiple active studs. I am SO SICK of bitch owners who have never managed a stud who CONSTANTLY gripe about stud owners on this forum and other places. You take your bitch to ONE stud a year or less. We breed our dogs to several bitches a month. I used to be meticulous about verifying clearances, and after I was lied to I have become meticulous again. If I can ask the questions and verify clearances on multiple bitches in a month per dog, you can ask the questions and verify ONE dog a year per bitch. If not, you are too busy to whelp and raise a litter anyway.

Of course when shopping a stud, you should be more detailed. I only verify hips/elbows/CERF (which some people do lie about). My dogs are clear of PRA, EIC, TVD, and there is no history of TVD in their lines. I leave all of these questions to the bitch owners.

As a bitch owner I do what I also expect from bitch owners when shopping my studs. I ask about allergies, temperament, TVD and other things that I don't want to introduce to my lines. In my experience there are many more people who are honest than dishonest about these things.

Part of breeding dogs is doing your homework. Don't cut corners and then blame the other party when you cut the wrong one. I didn't immediately call these two breeders out who bred to my boys. I took the information in and quietly decided not to trust them again. I also decided to be vigilant again when asking for clearances. There are many more good bitch owners out there than bad. Just as there are many more good stud owners than bad.

No, we aren't the only country, BUT Jill and her forum are based in the USA, so I think it would be a nice courtesy that if the dog is a champion outside of the USA or through a different US registry, the differentiation is made clear. I think that would be fair.

I agree that if you are advertising in/on a US site you would use a country designation for all registries other than the AKC. However, I would be interested to know how other countries (Holland, Germany, England) write their titles in advertising. Do those countries use Ch So And So if the dog is in England and has an AKC championship title, or do they write Am Ch So And So?

What are you saying Breeder? That's it's ok? Why do anymore CERF's on a dog that has had this. Pet home...byby doggie.

Marti, what are you hiding??? It's just not cool to advertise a "clear" dog when it's not! I agree with due diligence, but having to DIG for info is ridiculous!!! If a dog owner has something to hide, the dog shouldnt be bred!!!

I couldn't agree more. Why would someone ask about entopion when the cerf sheet isn't marked as breeder's option? Are we supposed to be mind readers?

Many stud dog owners take the approach that if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all.
Have you noticed that they will post everything under the sun and opps no EIC clearance and when you look into it the dog is a carrier. Come on folks if you have tested the dog and he is a carrier save everyone some time and put it out there with the rest of the clearances.

You are right, in Theory this Dog did pass (CERF did issue a#), but let's call a Spade a Spade here, or at the very least a #%$ Shovel. It's just plain lousey not to come clean and explain that although there was a passing CERF, the clearance did come with qualifications.

Can someone explain this please? This is the post I don't understand. Were posts removed that I happened to miss?

Thanks in advance.

First and foremost, never breed to just a picture. Written word can also be just what someone wants you to know. Look at all the advertizing about drugs and face creams for humans? It's all in the wording that can make you think one thing yet not to be sued if you misunderstood what they were trying to say.
If you like a dog, then next step is go to the breeder and ask questions and ask for copies of original papers.
THEN......ask around about litters and what they did produce. I know breeders will say that's terrible, but doing your homework for pups that "YOU" are bringing into this world, well, I say do all possible.
My biggest problem is breeding to very healthy dogs who have temperament problems. That is so well hidden and only if you approach that dog at a show and see for yourself. Then, even then, a dog that won't look you in the eye and the handler will ask you to stay back so the dog can concentrate on the show...BULL!!! Been fooled, and sorry I didn't ask around before breeding.

Why is it always my fault when a puppy has something wrong with it? I gues all of you have perfect bitches.

Don't worry......being a novice in this doesn't last long. You will eventually grow out of it.

So true...as does "Idealism". They either grow out of it or quite breeding.

Entropion's are a structural issue...it is hereditary when you breed for that structure. There is no reason you cannot use a dog dx with entropion if you are intelligent about it. But for goodness sake's understand what you are breeding. You want all these cute wrinkly, smooshy faces...well you are going to have to learn to deal with the Entropion and Ectropions then. Breed for a correct, clean head and you are going to minimize the chances of this happening. I have had long discussions with my ACVO about them as one of my early show dogs had it and my foundation bitch had ectropions. I made my breeding decisions with that in mind and never produced one...and I am on my fourth generation from her.

I don't disagree that a stud dog owner needs to be upfront with clearances. But bitch owners need to do their homework. The dog passed his CERF...how would you not see the breeder's option if you reviewed the clearances?? What happened to researching and understanding what you are breeding before you do it? Don't we owe the health of the breed that much? You can breed to a dog with every clearance under the sun and end up with a litter from he** if you don't understand what you are doing and what is behind the pedigrees. I have both stud dogs and bitches..I guess I always looked at it as my responsibility to make sure I knew exactly what I was breeding.

Don't get me wrong...there are questionable characters out there...just as there are in every walk of life. And I am not making excuses for their actions. I just look at it as we have to be responsible for ourselves and our decisions. Bottom line.... Sometimes I think we all get caught up in passing the buck...take ownership, learn from the experience and move on.