At the risk of some trolls coming out of the closet, I am going to start this thread anyway, because I find it disturbing and would like to read what honest/ genuine/ quality breeders think and feel about it.

Because we mostly read, see and hear about the successful show dogs, or the health issues breeders need help with, a question popped up in my head. How many of you have had entire litters ( or the ones you could track anyway) where you can honestly say you didn't have one pup eventually have issues with any orthopedics , allergies, eye issues, temperament issues, cleft palate etc????? I mean no issues at all, 100% healthy/sound dogs? What is the ratio of those litters compared to the litters you had even one health issue in? The more I am in the breed and listen to other breeder's stories the more frightened I am for the long term health of the breed. We spend all kinds of money on clearances to cut the odds of having issues, study pedigrees, etc yet it appears to me that we have more than a substantial amount of worries when we bring puppies in the world...
And how do you all handle those issues? Of course our contracts allow for this and that.. But what about things like allergies that show up later in a dog's life? What about entire litters that are affected?
I wish there was a board, a group of people / mentors that told me prior to breeding that health issues are more prominent than I personally find is discussed in this breed. ( I belong to many groups and frequent many forums and have prior to my first litter)
Some breeders can just send their pups off and figure it's nature and let the pet families deal with whatever... After all we are "playing with nature" and "the more you breed the more likely you are to experience all the issues in the breed" Others breeders have limited responsibilities to the puppies and do care, but you can only do so much once the pup is born and the issue present. But what about the breed long term? What about the Labradors we are producing? Seriously, I wish health issues were discussed more openly and not buried underneath the rug so much... I have been told by so many breeders during my searches and even casually that this or that dog produces X... or the lines are known for X, and the pups affected are mentioned to me as I know some of them... So as a responsible breeder, if I am interested in said dog, I call the stud dog owner and say I know of X amount of puppies sired by so and so,,, And X has shown up a few times. Do you have any knowledge of pups sired by your stud dog, or in your lines with X issue? And I have been told too many times that the sire has never produced X with any bitches the stud dog owner is aware of... ?????? It must be the bitch line....( not targeting stud dog owners at all, merely an example) So many breeders who REALLY care get caught in the middle and breed less than healthy lines, not knowing, even when they have veteran breeders mentoring them. And even when they do their research... You can only investigate so much How do you know who to trust? And sometimes it's too late when you find out....
The other thing I worry about is desensitiation... It seems to be 'expected' that these things will happen and breeding is" not for the faint of heart"

It's really discouraging and depressing to me. I adore this breed, but it makes me wonder if breeding is the right choice for me.

I would have to say that from everything I have just read from you, perhaps breeding is not going to be your "thing".
I'm sorry to sound harsh but it seems to me you are more concerned about preventing ANY and ALL problems than breeding to improve, which means taking chances.
There are living beings and we cannot control mother nature but we can make wise decisions that we feel will help our breed long term and most importantly, we can use the tools we have to make sure we don't knowingly produce those problems we CAN control.
There is risk in any aspect of life and until you can logically look at things in the right perspective, without getting an ulcer over it before you've even bred the litter, you maybe are better off NOT breeding.
Frankly I am tired of new breeders breeding only to clearances and to whatever dog they haven't heard any rumors about. Because believe me, there are skeletons in EVERY closet. It's how you utilize that information that makes or breaks you as a true breeder.

Here Here ! What she said !!! And this is why the seasoned breeders no longer bother with this forum. It has become the blind leading the blind. Those that think they know of what they speak, it's tiresome. Off to train some dogs....

As a breeder, I see both sides of this discussion. It's not like baking that perfect cake; however, puppy buyers can be sue-happy if the pup they purchased, albeit a carefully bred puppy, turns up with "hereditary" problems. I only state that the sire and dam are certified to be clear from this and that. If puppy buyers don't like it, the explanation why is in my contract, and if they choose to go elsewhere for a 100% guarantee that NOTHING will go wrong with this pup, they can continue their puppy search.

We all take chances, x our fingers and hope for the best; I as well have others have had our keepers not clear orthopedics, despite the clean pedigrees we bred to. Please don't be hard on the OP on this issue, I try to be a little more open to these concerns.

"Because believe me, there are skeletons in EVERY closet. It's how you utilize that information that makes or breaks you as a true breeder. "


I do not agree! Not EVERY closet, but you obviously got my point. You cannot utilize information that is hidden from you! I am not naive enough to think there will not be issues. I am also not naive enough to think that some of the better known dogs ( bitches and dogs) are used when they shouldn't ( due to health issues they produce) because they are successful in the ring and producing like puppies. There are risks in life and I take them... But I also make informed decisions whenever possible. I personally do not appreciate that option being taken from me when information is withheld deliberately. These ARE living beings and breeders should NOT be hiding issues that affect generation after generation so they can win in the ring and make money off their Labradors.
Yes I am idealistic. I love the breed so much so that I would love to make them issue free. No I am not naive enough to think that possible.. But I would love to see less selfishness and excuses and more putting the information on the table and the health of our Labradors first and foremost.

You wrote:
"sorry to sound harsh but it seems to me you are more concerned about preventing ANY and ALL problems than breeding to improve, which means taking chances."

My motive for breeding would be to improve health first, conformation second... I would take a litter of 10 healthy Labrador pet puppies in it ANYDAY over a litter of 10 with a BIS winner and several pups with issuess..... Guess it's a matter of priorities.

Please don't be hard on the OP on this issue, I try to be a little more open to these concerns.

Thank you tired and sunburn..
If the new breeders are not concerned with the issues in the closets, then who will be? Is this what a seasoned, veteran breeder has become? Someome who can successfully hide things and get away with it? To be a 'true" breeder do you have to breed to skeletons in the closet? NO ONE spoke about producing and guaranteeing healthy puppies each and every time. The thread is about knowing about issues and burying them... Mother Nature messes with us enough. Do we need to help her create problems for these unborn babies?

I always thought of a veteran breeder as someone who has the experience with the clearances, health issues, pedigrees, genetics, and uses them wisely and is willing to share with new people for the betterment and health of the breed.
Who are the future of the breed if not for the new breeders and the kids wanting to learn about it?
How will they all learn and better the breed w/o those who have gone before them and made the mistakes and learned from them? Without the help of the veterans in the breed the newbies will make all the same mistakes and more Labrador and families will suffer. Why does that NOT bother some people?

Yes, every closet. Every dog has issues behind it. No living being is perfect. No, they might not have produced it, but something is behind every dog.

Unfortunately, many want everything to be black and white, but things can be gray instead. You use the tools you have and pray a lot afterwards. Sooner or later, you're going to produce something and you'll wonder where the heck that came from. You deal with it and move on or you get out of breeding.

Thank you. You have just proven why it's so important that newbies do not breed until they have LOTS of experience and knowledge behind them.
You are obviously new or you wouldn't be saying not every closet has skeletons and you would not be practically begging for everyone to open up their personal business to you, ie, telling you "whats in their lines". Guess what? It's none of your business actually.
And until we have a working crystal ball that tells us HOW and WHY each and every "issue" comes up, I don't think you'll be seeing any of the long time breeders spilling their guts about what their dogs produced. Takes two to Tango sweetie.
Secondly, most of us are smart enough to figure out what we should quietly make disappear (pet home) so that potential issues are not perpetuated.
You may not hear about it, no one may have told you about it but if you watch real carefully (preferably silently) and keep track (like a seasoned breeder does) you will learn from others without them having to tell you.
You come across as very green (novice) and slightly whiney. Please just close mouth and observe.
You also sound like you may be bitter about something you produced in your one and only litter.
Don't be. It happens to us all and like Laura said, we either move on and learn from it or we quit.
The choice is yours but there's no room for the weak at heart in this game.

Yes, every closet. Every dog has issues behind it. No living being is perfect. No, they might not have produced it, but something is behind every dog.


Sorry misinterpretation of skeletons in closet..
YES every dog has something behind it.
I meant hidden deliberately when known.
My error.

I also can deal with gray... Just not black and white existence that is denied.

Dear stud dog :
Thank you for your replies.
It is incredibly difficult to respect or acknowledge anything in your reply since you come off as very arrogant and uncaring of another's experience and perspective that is different than your own.. My preception of your people skills is not a favorable one. Perhaps others may feel a need to read and reply to your posts. Please be advised I do not.
Thank you to everyone else who has been participating in this thread with an open mind and willing to share and educate.
Have a grand day.

Yes I agree, there are dishonest people everywhere.
I choose to try not to deal with those people.

As for your response attacking my character, your loss.
I gave you the real truth and you just didn't like it so you chose to attack me personally.
So be it. Sure hope you never, ever call me for stud service. You are no doubt the type that would turn into a frothing at the mouth, vindictive vigilante.
No thanks.
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

And your response to Stud Dog is precisely why so many of us who have put their heart and soul into this for many years (hint: many does not equal 5 or 10 - it's far more) seem unapproachable and unsharing. Why should we care about mentoring you when it is so obvious that you just want what you can get out of it in terms of inside "secrets" instead of spending the time to study and learn. It's not our job or responsiblity to make a 50-word ad into a 3 page document enumerating all of the issues for 5 generations back in our pedigrees. Rather, it is your responsibility to study pedigrees, research databases, talk to breeders intelligently and with just a little more humility than you are showing here, and spend the TIME needed to learn about the history behind this breed. Did I strike a nerve there? TIME = paying dues, something people aren't much willing to do these days.

Agree with Tired and Stud Dog...not to mention that you need to look at the individual when you are planning a litter. What you may percieve to be a weakness in a pedigree for your dog and needs may not be for another.

The best advice has already been given. Learn your pedigree and seek advice and expertise from mentors. My guess is that if your perception is that everyone is hiding secrets from you...then you are new and do not have a mentor. Less idealistic talk, more watching and learning.

When you have a lot of tests available, it appears like the breed is un-healthy, because there are so many "issues" you can have. Think about years ago when Lab breeders did hip OFA's, and a current CERF. The breed survived, quiet well actually, and is a (relatively) very healthy breed right now. It is easy to think Labradors are unhealthy because there are so many things to test for. Check out some other breeds and the (serious) health issues they face, and the dire conditions their breed(s) are in.

Cherish the long time breeders, and the information they have in their heads, go sit at a Specialty and make friends with some, and sit ringside and just listen. You earn the right over time to be given valuable information, and to join friendship circles that share information.

You do seem to have a little bit of a Chicken Little ("The Sky is FALLING!") complex, maybe breeding won't be your game, but please don't alienate the long time breeders that are interested in helping and sharing with you, even those that still post on this forum. Politeness and respect go a long way.

Another note, I find it much more helpful when consulting a potential stud dog owner, to tell them what the main thing(s) you are looking for to improve your bitch (ie, missing teeth, allergies, a stronger orthopedic line, better topline etc... ad infinitum). This opens up a discussion where the stud dog owner is not on the defensive, and may be willing to share relevant information. Also, they will perhaps guide you to a different dog as a subtle hint that this mating may not be beneficial. Not all long time breeders are the "enemy", or "hiding" information, there are many many many many who care deeply about the breed, and won't steer you wrong, you just have to "listen".

My guess is that if your perception is that everyone is hiding secrets from you...then you are new and do not have a mentor. Less idealistic talk, more watching and learning.


No one ever said I perceived EVERYONE as hiding secrets.
I said some breeders intentionally hide things? Can ANY of you say that is not true?

I am also not looking for a free ride. My personal story would really suprise all of you. I have many mentors who are very well known and collectively have many years experience.. I have been told much of what I know and how I perceive things are from some of the thoughts these seasoned people shared...

I do not share private information here or anywhere else because of the exact direction this thread has taken. And what I am told I guard because I am trusted and I do keep my mouth shut about shared information. I am not as new to the breed as you would think.

Just a person willing to stick their neck out and speak things so many have spoken to me ( including well known breeders) who are unwilling to speak it in public because it is not popular to talk about the skeletons in the closets, obviously.

In addition I will not be respectful to someone who calls individuals names on a public forum. If you agree with that individual it is your entrie right. But it has no reflection on my back round in Labradors or my future. It has to do with an exchange on a public forum that obviously got personal and defensive.

All of the replies that offered real solutions to breeding problems, I acknowledge and have always taken into consideration in the past and will continue to in the future.
Thank you for your thoughts. but this thread has been non productive so far.
Have a nice day everyone.

Politeness and respect go a long way.

Yes especially when it is mutual.
You make some very valid points about the health of the breed compared to other breeds. Thank -you.
Thanks for the laugh as well... I can come off as an alarmist.. That was not my intention.
It seems the forums are filled these days with health issues and the groups and the breeders I know have been having more than the usual difficulties lately.
I wanted to explore stats and respectfully discuss possible reasons but of course that is not the course the thread took.

I do cherish many, many long time breeders who have taken me under their wing over the years. People who know me do know that I sit quietly ringside and listen. I do take workshops, read, do research.

But I am not one to just accept things because I am told to . I prefer to have some sort of comfortable feeling, whether it is right or wrong for someone else. We all have our own criteria for what is acceptable and what is not in a breeding program.
I just want to make the best choices for mine so that I am comfortable... I don't think hiding valuable information is productive and even if I am in the breed for 50 years, I doubt I ever will. That is my perogative.

So wait, you have many mentors but need to come on this board and beg for more openess?

You are privey to much information given to you by your many mentors about health issues but you come onto a public board to accuse breeders of not sharing information?

You will not divulge this information you say you are privey to from your many mentors because you know when to keep your mouth shut, yet you come on this board to condem that very practice?

Hmmmmm. Sounds fishy to me. Do you have multiple personalities? Because you seem to contradict yourself quite a bit :(

If you really wanted to have a meaningful conversation about why your friends are suddenly having more issues than normal then you should not have come here accusing people of being dishonest and witholding information. You set the tone.

If your friends are having more than normal issues I would #1 step back and see what it is that they are breeding to. #2, possibly realize that maybe the issues were there all along but now you've been accpeted into the circle of information sharing.

I think that's ridiculous. If we all waited until we had LOTS of experience and knowledge, no one would be breeding. It's SOO hard to get people to tell you the truth about things even if you ask, even if you have been around the lab community. I belong to several clubs, have been in the breed over 10 years, have done my time with my obedience and hunting dogs before I entered the show ring and tried breeding. But getting someone to talk to you honestly about problems is like pulling teeth. I find out things by chance, and more often than not, I find out after the fact. Someone told me about a serious issue in a line they won't breed to, but when I asked early on about breeing to that line, THEN no one knew anything. Of course I have now adult dogs with just those issues. I think many times it takes years and folks breeding to these dogs and having those pups become adults to have these things come to light.

I am certainly not blaming the stud dogs, but it's so hard to NOT when you have a perfectly healthy bitch that's passed all her clearances and has never been sick a day in her life, and then when you breed to one dog, X appears (then you find out that that line is known for it) and then you breed to another dog and someone asks if you have seen Y, and sure enough that appears too.

So are you saying that you bred to a stud dog who wasn't perfectly healthy with his health clearances????????????????????????????????????????????
If so, then bad on you.
If not, what makes you think your bitch didn't contribute to the HIDDEN problems that came out in your puppies? I say hidden because I am assuming the stud dog didn't have the issues himself or you wouldn't have used him?????
See, this is why I prefer not to deal with Novices anymore.
Always looking to point fingers!!!!

I'm really going to throw a kink into your machine here.

In your first post you questioned having a litter with absolutely no health problems. Yes, I had a litter of 10 healthy puppies that turned into 10 of the healthiest dogs I've ever bred. No issues at all. Great longevity too. No skin problems, orthopedic issues, temperament issues, allergies, etc.

I repeated the breeding 3 years later and the litter was riddled with problems ranging from chronic ear infections to bad elbows and LITERALLY everything in between. I could give you the laundry list of things that went wrong with these puppies and it would shock you considering the health of the first litter.

Sometimes things just happen. There are people out there who are always looking to point the finger of blame, when sometimes there is no one to blame. It's just one of those things.

I have a stud who has sired more than 150 puppies in 4 years. Out of that group, two pups were diagnosed with OCD of the hock 3 years apart. So where should the finger of blame point? Is it bitch owners? The stud owner? The actual puppy owner feeding the wrong type of food and letting their pup rough house with their 3 year old Rottie?

Part of the problem is that some of the things you mentioned are either highly affected by environment or somewhat influenced by environment. Skin issues can be genetic, or they can be related to the type of shampoo the puppy owner is constantly using despite your protests. Orthopedic issues could be related to the weight/condition/and type of food given to the puppy during their formative months and flat out ignorance, letting a young pup play with older dogs without setting boundaries.

As a stud owner, I am always going to be honest about my boys and what they are producing, but I don't believe two pups out of 150 to be a trend that can realistically point back to my boy, and therefore I don't think that is worth mentioning. If you do, you will likely miss out on some very good stud dogs in the future.

Here's my philosophy....Do the best you can with what you have. Don't be deceitful. Be true to your beliefs.

If you educate yourself on what you have in your kennel and do the best you can with it, then sleep well because you have done your job as a breeder.

That dog with OCD is a treasured family member, that bitch with a grade 2 elbow is making some family incredibly happy, that dog who has allergies is her little girl's best friend. I grew up in a house where my best friend and constant companion had severe allergies, digestive issues, and elbow dysplasia. I didn't care. She led a long and happy life, and I wouldn't be who I am without her.

I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but producing a puppy with an issue isn't the end of the world. They can still be someone's best friend.

The litter I mentioned earlier with all of the problems.....I still get pictures and e-mails from pet people who LOVE their dogs and thank me all the time for them, despite their various shortcomings. Like me, they understand that these dogs are living creatures, and living creatures are never perfect, they just seem perfect to us when we love them.

I think that new breeders rely so much on this test, and that test, and the illusion of perfection because they are trying to pass their "product" off as better than the rest. It's nothing but a pride issue. "Look how good I am!". Then they feel caught with their pants down when their puppies are just as "human" as the rest of ours are.

So what you're saying is its ok for breeders to LIE BY OMISSION about other issues?

I bred to a stud dog who was used often, not a real lot, but he has 11 litters listed on OFFA. I had a good rapport with his owner and breeder, or so I thought! SHE NEVER TOLD ME THAT HIS SISTER had TVD. Or that in the previous litters he had a lot of puppies who tore cruciates (I mean, a LOT of puppies, disproportionate to the norm I'd say for sure). These are things I specifically asked about, as we sat ringside at shows etc, when we emailed back and forth etc. I had talked to other breeders who had used him, his get were winning in the ring and no one told me that several of them had cruciates repaired.

My girl had been bred twice before, and I can honestly say, they're 6 years old and 4 years old and I've had no problems that I've heard of, and I stay in great contact with puppy buyers. I've not heard of a problem from the 17 previous puppies in her litters. 6 of these puppies have had all clearances and the 'worst' thing is a few EIC carriers, my girl is a carrier.

Now I suddenly have a litter of 2.5 year olds out of the above mentioned stud dog where the entire litter has torn cruciates. THE ENTIRE LITTER OF 7 puppies. Three of these dogs have torn both cruciates.

I had my keeper fail an echo doppler.

Stud dog problem? Not sure. Can't say for certain. But sounds fishy to me, and DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT to say that I didn't do my homework. This is a well-used stud dog, and his owner LIED about all of the above. ALL OF IT.

So I'm sorry STUD DOG, but you need to get your head out of your ass and really THINK about what you old time breeders are doing to the breed by keeping things to yourselves. If you know something, say something. I have a mentor, and I've had three litters total. And yes, I am disheartened with the mood that 'elders' have that newbies need to learn all these 'hard lessons' themselves. Stop and think that maybe the clearances on OFA are not enough and that yes, omitting the truth is LYING.

breeder/stud dog owner:

I enjoyed your entire post until I got to this:

"I think that new breeders rely so much on this test, and that test, and the illusion of perfection because they are trying to pass their "product" off as better than the rest. It's nothing but a pride issue. "Look how good I am!". Then they feel caught with their pants down when their puppies are just as "human" as the rest of ours are."

I think that is quite the generalization.. Could it be that a new breeder is idealistic and they think they can make a difference in the health of our Labradors?
You made so much sense in all you wrote... I was humbled to read about your repeat litter as it was a learning curve for me. I have never heard of such a drastic difference in a repeat breeding. The real kink in my machine as you refer to it, was the perception that you think new breeders are not in the breed for the same reasons you give the impression you are. I am truly sorry if the people you know personally are that way.. The new people I know are happy to have healthy pups , going to great families, and a nice blue ribbon here or there. If poop happens they deal with it. I don't know anyone new trying to be better than anyone else. I do know some oldtimers who don't like when the new kids on the block win in the ring though.

I am getting ready to breed my girl and am concerned about things just like this. Will you please e-mail me privately with the stud dog's name?

Such is life...we cannot create perfection in ourselves, or anything else.

OP, your question is a good one.

Let me ask this. How many (human) babies are born and experience zero defects? In your post you ask about eyes, allergies, ortho stuff etc. I would hazard a guess that the percentage is very high.

I do not know too many 60 yr olds who are not taking some sort of medicine of one sort or another.

And. surprise surprise, the odds are heading south. More of us humans are being diagnosed with multiple issues at alarming rates.

so - should we stop breeding?

No, I didn't say that. I said an "issue". Not all health issues are testable. We have entroprian, bad bites, missing teeth, siezures, etc. You are pretty self righteous to think that I didn't use a stud with all clearances.

I never pointed a finger. I live with my dogs and deal with what I get and breed around it. I don't bad mouth folks using their names and spread rumors like other folks. I am just saying that it is hard to learn things when you have a 100% healthy bitch and things crop up and later folks tell you, "Oh yeah, that line is famous for that issue." Of course, the stud didn't exhibit the issue in question. But when someone comes out and says that they KNOW a stud has been producing bad bites, hard to say it's YOUR bitch then, huh?

No one tells you that when you ask, but sure as hell wear that smug look on their faces like they ate the canary and think you're stupid because you couldn't ferret out the secrets. Only the golden circle gets to know the goods on the lines and then they blame the novices that they don't let in for making bad decisions.

Yeah, you are so smart, not dealing with novices anymore. I certainly wouldn't want an judgemental bitch like you being my mentor.

AMEN. I had my now ex-mentor tell me that she was talking to a very well known breeder and they told her about all the dogs she wouldn't breed to because of problems. Of course I asked who, heck, if someone tells you that any NORMAL person is going to ask WHICH dogs! "OHHHH, I can't tell you that, I promised I wouldn't tell". I don't know if my ex-mentor was really sworn to secrecy, but sheesh...what a pain in the ass to make a point to SAY something and then not pass on the info. It's not like I breed alot or would have run back to any one and said anything. Maybe she was just making herself feel special. But if you aren't going to share, keep your mouth shut.

so - should we stop breeding?

That really is a different thread altogether as far as I am concerned. But to address your question, if I delivered 2 babies with seizures to the same father, I would not conceive again. It's using information gathered and not putting your head in the sand, hoping and praying it won't happen again.
But you cannot use information that you don't have which is concealed from you deliberately.

Come all you whiners, it does take two to tango! You do not know what your bitch has lurking in her gene pool, and I don't know what is lurking in my boys either. What clicks with one bitch may be a disaster with the next one.
If you are not ready for the chips to fall , then don't breed, really there are enough puppies in this world.

Finishing and specialing a dog or bitch is expensive. Once you've spent that kind of money and you find out there is a problem, it is easy to justify witholding the truth to make some money back.

Yes, witholding the truth is lying. The OP simply is interested in honesty and transparency for the good of the breed and out of respect for fellow breeders and eventual puppies and puppy buyers. All the people who twisted that simple concern are self-centered jerks. God bless America.

"Yes, witholding the truth is lying. The OP simply is interested in honesty and transparency for the good of the breed and out of respect for fellow breeders and eventual puppies and puppy buyers."


reality:
2 things-- FINALLY!!! and Thank-you!
Have a great evening!

I might have missed something. I'm just curious how you arrived at the conclusion that "stud dog" is a female....

Quote:
Originally Posted by me_ quote_Yeah, you are so smart, not dealing with novices anymore. I certainly wouldn't want an judgemental bitch like you being my mentor.

Posted by Greg Lynch - Kellyn Labs quote_ I might have missed something. I'm just curious how you arrived at the conclusion that "stud dog" is a female....



You mean the bitch mentor?

This sounds just like someone I know. I guess she opens her gates from time to time.

I am not new to Labradors - have been doing this for over 20 years, but I actually agree with the OP that there is a need for transparency. I know it is not possible to avoid all genetic issues, they will pop up, but the point is, shouldn't that be part of our goal? Recently I was after a judges' group meeting, I was in conversation with a well known, well respected Sporting judge, and during the course of conversation, this person just said so matter-of-factly, "" ...well that's because Labradors are just an unhealthy, unsound breed". the context of the conversation didn't matter. What did is the sentiment that the most popular breed in America, that is gifted with having a huge gene pool, that is supposed to be an athletic dog, is "an unhealthy, unsound, breed". The general consensus to the conversation was that at the root of all this was a lack of transparency for our breeding stock. Other breeds seem to have to offer more transparency, but in the process, with more limited gene pools, they are surviving, allbeit not with absolutely clean lines - this is an impossibility, but at least, they are surviving as sound athletes. The question is ours: what do we want for this breed we love?

I am not disagreeing with anything you have stated here. What I do wonder is where this individual's perception comes from that this breed is so unsound and unhealthy? Unless you are actively breeding or part of the health research community...how would one be able to gather enough information to make such a broad/sweeping statement?

I have owned other breeds, I would have to say that by and large Labs are a pretty healthy breed. The breeding tools that have been developed in the past 10 years alone have helped us breed around health issues that we could not before.

I do think that perception can be skewed by the sheer numbers in our breed population as compared to other breeds. Not to mention and good portion of this population (BYB) does not even have the most basic of clearances.

To the OP's original post...I have given this some serious thought. I do wonder if "popular sire" syndrom is at play in some cases. There are about a half dozen recent stud dogs that everyone has flocked to. These dogs have contributed some amazing qualities but I am sure have passed along some other things as well...coupled with a bitch pedigree who may also carry some less than desireable issues in her genes has resulted in producing some things that need to be worked out of the population. The problem is now finding dogs that are diverse in pedigree and still have the characteristics and soundness you need to carry on with.

Think about how much easier and common it is to breed to dogs on the other side of the country or even in other countries than it was 10-15 years ago. I do think that some of this has had a hand in creating the challenges we are facing today. Maybe I am wrong...just my thoughts.

I have read with interest the responses to the OP's post. I see that the OP wants transparency and honesty about problems (not perfection), as others have also said eloquently. Doesn't it strike any others as ironic that this conversation is occurring largely anonymously?

I agree with OP, that we should all be more open about the dark secrets in our lines. Of course I do, I'm a newbie. I haven't "paid my dues" or kissed up to the RIGHT people. I suppose that means I deserve to struggle with the results of an uninformed breeding. If a litter I breed turns out to have skin issues, or seizures, then it will be all my fault. I should have sought out MORE mentoring, MORE advice from the "keepers of the secrets". That litter will serve as a lesson, one more step on my way to being an experienced breeder.

The attitude that some knowledge is privileged, that you must work to earn it, is fine in some arenas. But when it comes to creating new life, I think there is a responsibility to share. I don't see how the old time breeders can sit by and keep their mouths shut while new breeders stumble around blindly, combining lines that the wise ones know share a common genetic flaw.

Doesn't it strike any others as ironic that this conversation is occurring largely anonymously?

Kate:
I generally post with my name ,but chose not to this time as I knew where some of the replies would go. I really do not want any part of it. But it was important enough to me to post so that perhaps it would get some breeders thinking about the subject. As I previously stated I do know well known, well respected breeders with the same concerns who would never publicly state them because of the exact response that I have gotten here... We talk about the breed being split.... I think we have 3 kinds of breeders as well. BYB, those who are willing and want disclosure, and those who don't. JMHO

I am struck by the attitude that somehow the "old time breeders" are being unfairly characterized as not being honest about what they know. I think many reputable people are very careful with sharing information which might damage another's reputation for fear of their words being misused and misinterpreted. Then the blame is heaped upon them for saying something negative and lawsuits are threatened. I know that before I open my mouth about any concern I have about another person's dog, I really have to trust whoever it is I am speaking with to not spread misinformation. So, while I might know quite a bit about this stud dog, or that particular line of dogs, I will not be sharing my thoughts with anyone I do not know VERY well. That is not being selfish.

So, while I might know quite a bit about this stud dog, or that particular line of dogs, I will not be sharing my thoughts with anyone I do not know VERY well. That is not being selfish.

Kay:
I agree with you.. When I am trusted with information, I too do not share that information. But that is my point. If all breeders were completely open about the issues in their own closets, there would be no need to feel as though you can't help someone else out and prevent puppies from suffering needlessly if you know there is an issue. One of the problems I find with this hobby is people are competitive. They are in any sport... Stud dog owners are fearful of disclosing even the smallest issue because, and I know from experience, there are too many breeders on the bandwagon trying to ruin your reputation... And mountains are made out of molehills.
But if more people listened less to gossip, felt secure enough in their own practices to not hide them from others, and went right to the source, perhaps those people wishing to harm another would be less and less. No matter what we have put into a breeding program, a stud dog, a successful show dog, etc..... the bottom line is our puppies are the future of our beloved breed... If people continue to act according to their own agenda, hide things,,, it will eventually come back to bite everyone in the ass...Including those who think they know the most. If we are creating liars in the breed and it's commonplace, the gene pool will be affected negatively whether we want to admit it or not...
These innocent creatures trust us... It sickens me that it doesn't mean much to some people.

What I find bizarre here about everyone wanting transparency from the stud owners is that when one of them is transparent and advertises that particular issue (whether it's a B, EIC Carrier, etc.) then instead of focusing on all the great things about the dog you fell in love with, the fodder turns to all the things that are wrong and the gossip increases exponentially about "x" dog and did you see he's got "xyz" and in some cases the one fault becomes his curse. We all have to breed for ourselves personally and choose a stud dog WE are comfortable with. If you're not- quit the gossip and move on.. there are plenty to choose from. And honestly, this whole post seems like nothing more than a witch hunt to try and get stud dog owners to fess up to something that may or may not have been the dogs fault to begin with.

If people want to be tight-lipped about issues they know are either prevalent in their lines or have been produced by their dogs, then they need to be very stringent on how their dogs are bred. For example, a stud dog that has produced (or is affected with himself) an issue like epilepsy or TVD should not be available at public stud - if the breeder wants to use them carefully on their own stuff, great, but if they do not wish to disclose to bitch owners (without having to be asked) their dog has produced this (and yes, it takes 2 to tango, so their dog IS 50% responsible), then they are not entitled to a bitch owner's stud fee. I have a dog who is the epitome of good health himself but does have epilepsy behind him - do I go broadcasting this to the world? No. But he has also never been available at stud and has never been bred. When I have received inquiries, I am up front as to why I will not make an exception. I have no interest in going down that path and don't want to be accountable for what others are doing.

I think most people understand there are no perfect dogs out there - that is common sense, and one does not have to be a long-term breeder to "get" this. What most people want is the freedom to decide what risks they are willing to live with in a given breeding - no one else has the right to make those decisions for them for the sake of a stud fee or the perceived reputation of their dog. As far as gossip or rumors are concerned, that unfortunately is human nature and is another reason why breeders need a thick skin.

On the flip side of not breeding if you can only live with perfect health clearances, if you cannot be honest about what your dog has produced or cannot handle the thought of others believing your dog to be less that perfect, then you too should not be breeding!

"Wondering" sounds arrogant to me. The light bulb finally went off and so she's decided that she's better than the others, rightous, and then to say "And what I am told I guard because I am trusted and I do keep my mouth shut about shared information." Ok so there you go. Wondering does the same thing. "Kay" has the best response. Thank you, Kay.

Kay, I agree that to characterize all long time breeders as dishonest is wrong.

However, I think that reasons to avoid sharing information about dogs belonging to other people is a distraction from the most important issue--sharing information about the dogs you own.

This is the rub , I don't think all breeders , most without mentorship, do realize there are no perfect dogs. If you read every post on this thread you have a breeder asking for the name of a stud dog that produced a disaster litter. That is ridiculous , how many good litters did that stud dog produce with OTHER bitches. So now we have new breeders keeping LISTS of stud dogs that they have heard through the grapevine that have produced this or that. So I will say again, it takes two to tango, and a bitch having every clearance known to man , bred to a stud dog with same , can and will produce a disaster litter at some point. It is pointless to keep stud dog lists , if you are not going to look at both sides of that disaster litters pedigree. Breed less, learn more.

I find it funny that in a thread about transparency and not hiding stud dog faults, no one has answered my question. Really transparent. I guess you want me to try and fail the same way you did.

I want to thank Wondering for bringing up an important topic for anyone breeding anything, not just Labradors. I think at least part of the problem between newbies (and I am one) and old-timers is the CSI effect. Courtrooms are experiencing this effect even more than we are with obviously guilty people being found innocent because of the lack of DNA or some other evidence that the TV show would surely have uncovered. The fact is we just don't know what causes a breeding to produce very healthy and beautiful pups and the same breeding 3 years later many pups with altered quality of life. We simply don't know enough to have an explanation for something like that and, until we do, we can only do the best we can with the knowledge we do have. Twenty years ago we had no tests and breeders could only observe, ask questions, listen for what's said and what's not said. Today, because we have some useful tools does not mean we can breed, even now,without risk. Some of us think that we can, but I don't believe we're there yet. And that can be frustrating in this day and time.

don't ask don't tell was repealed today (oh, but that was not in the Labrador World)

There are issues in everyones lines ( i prefer not to live in the closet). But, wouldn't it be nice if we all used the open Labradatabase? I agree with Laura that there is something in everyone's lines. Having a mentor is the best way to navigate your way through the breed, but their is absolutely nothing wrong with using testing results to base breeding decisions upon. Use it as a compliment to the total picture.

I 100% disagree with using dogs as a way to recoup your costs for anything (showing, breeding, etc).

But this is why we run the gamut from BYB to the "inner circles".


To the other poster who was looking for the stud dogs name- don't hold your breath, you need to post a valid email.

I wondered how long it would take Kate to show up here... in fact, I was wondering a couple of days ago if it weren't Kate the OP. Surely not.....

Does it take two to tango, when it comes to tvd and seisures? I thought we thought it only takes one especially on TVD. And what if you know your bitch may have a TVD affected or a producer in her lines, I said may have, would you not want the stud owner to be honest about their stud dog, so you would not possibly double up on it!

Please don't characterize everyone as being either a newbie or an oldtimer. The rest of your post is a very interesting perspective, however. But my criticism is that half the problem in our breed is all the people in the middle who think they are experienced. It is unbelievable all the people who have been breeding for 10 years who think they have a clue.

Are you just as ignorant when you are well rested?

I don't think anyone knows for certain how these particular issues are passed along; because of that, if neither parent is themselves affected (one would hope no one is breeding affected TVD/epileptic dogs), it is safer to assume both parents contributed in some way than to mistakenly assume only one contributed (especially the wrong one).

I thought the same. I just didn't post it as the more her name is brought up, the more she comes back babbling nonsense most of the time.

Everyone knows you are the same person. Give your grudges a rest.

How come I'm not the *same person* and agree with what the others said?

This topic is heated. If that person gets going, it will only get worse. It's her way or the highway.

Shouldn't we all be concerned about the breed we love? Not everyone is going to agree about how to handle everything but we should agree about concern for Labradors.

YOU are TIRED.

So then who am I? I am none of those posters who you claim are one and the same. But you really are deluded if you think so. There are a great many people who share the opinion that some people who post on this board are domineering, petty, inflexible,
"preachy", and unpleasant. We could say that you and Kate are the same person, too. Aren't we entitled to our opinions, too?