Hey breeders! Come one, come all to the discussion about fronts. I welcome all of your thoughts.

A good friend and I were arguing last night about fronts. IMO, the dogs she likes are all too top heavy. In her opinion, the dogs I like don't have enough upper arm.

So how do you interperet the standard? When viewed from the side, how much keel should a dog have, where do you measure the bones of the shoulder and upper arm?

I think she is gravitating to more pronounced fronts because she is finding the tip of the shoulder on the dog's topline, tracing that to the keel, and then back to the elbow.

For example: here is a skeletal view of a Lab
http://www.thelabradorclub.com/uploads/Skeleton2.jpg

See how the humerus and scapula are almost equal when viewing the bones?

Now here is an example of the way my friend sees a dog's front.
http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=4606261027
/PictureID=190590899027/a=6984000027_6984000027/
otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/
(NOTE: I had trouble pasting this link correctly. If you try to paste it directly into your broswer it won't work. Paste it into a word document first and hit backspace on the new lines to make it all on one line. Then copy and paste into a browser window.

Now, the same dog I saw with nearly equal upper arm and scapula lenths, all of a sudden has a 30% shorter upper arm. She believes this is not enough front for a dog.

What do you guys think? I'd love to hear everybody's opinions.

A Lab should have a good keel , but it has nothing to do with the shoulder angulation. The keel is part of the rib cage.
They should have a 50/50 shoulder, the scapula and humerus being the same length. To see if the humerus is good length and well laid back the front leg should come back well under the body, under the withers.
You can have a good keel that will give the illusion of a good turnback of the humerus.Be sure that front leg is set well under the body.

I think we get very accustomed to seeing bad fronts,fronts that look flat from the side with the leg coming right off the corner of the body like a table leg.This is true and a problem in many breeds.

Good fronts are few and far between and something we should be working hard to improve.

Are you using the nautical term "keel" to refer to the "prow", which is the prosternum? More correctly used, the term "keel" would actually be the longitudinal midline structure which runs the bottom length of the entire ribcage.

Let's all be on the same page to avoid confusion.

I agree that short upper arms and straight fronts are a real problem which too many people either ignore or don't understand.


The length of the upper arm (including the humerus to the back of the head of the ulna)should be approximately the same length as that of the scapula. You do not measure to the point of the prosternum.

Here are the OP's images:

#1


#2

I recently was ringside watching the Lab class and was troubled, standing, some had really lovely looking "keel" no flat chest here! Yet, they were not able to get out of their own way, I get so tired of seeing these lovely baiting Labs standing and then they go to move and they can't even extend beyond the keel let alone reach to the point of nose. They go pitter pattering around the ring. A Lab is a MODERATE dog that should be able to gait easily while spending a day in the field. Look at all the dogs in the Spotlight section and you will see many different fronts, wish I could see them all move, that is the telling point.

I am new to this.. so when you are discussing the "upper arm" are you talking about the humerus or the scapula? I assumed it was the humerus.

Sorry to see not much discussion on this topic as it is something I am beginning to see how important fronts are particularly in performance dogs. Wonder what affects movement more.. ? short upper arm or the front assembly too far forward?

The humerus is the upper arm. When it is short it puts the front leg too far front on the body. Not under the withers where it is needed for balance and proper weight distribution.

a dog with a short upper arm can appear to move well. The leg can swing out to the side and then front enabling it to appear to be moving well but it is not moving efficiently.This will cause a dog to tire when going a long distance.

Thank you! That totally makes sense.

Wow....I was really hoping for more discussion on this.

What would you like to know or talk about?Do you have questions?

Yes, I have questions about how the majority of people are interpreting the standard. Am I mistaken, or is my friend?

When I look at this dog I see a humerus and scapula of nearly equal length.


When my friend looks at a dog like that she views them more like this. Her eye sees an upper arm nearly 30% shorter.


In fact, her placement of the dots simply by looking at the outline of this dog might be closer to this.


So how do you see a dog's front? What is correct in your mind? Most of the dogs I prefer don't have enough upper arm for her, while I see the dogs she prefers as top heavy.

Also, on angles. Where are your measuring points? When I measure a dog with my eye I look at points within their body. The humerus and scapula don't intersect just under the skin. Do you also look at points well hidden under muscle and tissue, or do you measure like these dots, right on the outline?

Please post pics if you have them. I want to see what you see. Thanks

Your dots are wrong, they should be where the scapula and humerus come together, not at the front of the body.
I think the scapula in the drawing is a little upright, your line doesnt correspond to the angle of the scapula in the drawing.

To tell from across the ring if the shoulder is streight and not angled back enough, the line from the back of the head to the body will be shorter then the line from the throat to the body.

To tell if the humerus is of proper length and angle ,look for the front leg to be well back under the body, under the withers.

I know the dots are wrong, that's why I posted this topic. Seriously...have you even read my posts?

My point is that I believe my friend (and many others) look at the dog and make imaginary dots on their skin as opposed to where the bones intersect.

Many breeders don't find importance in fronts. Why? Because some judges reward dogs with incorrect fronts that don't move correctly due to that problem. If they don't have large worries about it, why bother fixing it or caring about it in their future or current generations?

Balance apparently isn't as important as it used to be, neither is proper movement.

Breeders that care about the conformation of their dog; when you choose your pick pups, look for the puppies with correct fronts and proper balance along with other correct conformation. You'll be doing it right and ahead of the game in the long run. *JMOFWIW*