A friend took his 4 month old Lab to the Vet. Vet says to stop feeding Pro Plan puppy. Vet doesn't want the puppy to get too big. Any thoughts? Thank you.

Really?!?! What is with Vets lately? I understand many are under the impression that you must hold a puppy back by making it "grow slow" so it won't get hip dysplasia, but taking a 4 month old pup off a puppy food so it won't grow too big? That's ludicrous. I feed my puppies per the recommended dog food company and that is for a full year. The dog food companies don't spend millions on feeding trials and research so that vets and breeders can disregard their findings. Thanks, but I'll allow my pups to grow at their fullest potential.

I bet this Vet also recommends neutering this pup now, which will really make it grow too big.

I start my litters out on Pro Plan puppy but anything staying here get moved right to adult food for that very reason.

in fact my contract states puppies must be off puppy food by 6 months old or hip guarantee is void.

Good to see a vet has some clue about puppy growth and foods. There is just no reason to rush these guys.

Our recommendation for our pups is start the switch over to adult formula at 16 weeks.

If you read the packaging on most of the good adult formulas they actually say for all life stages.

Unless the vet has actually looked at all the labels, he couldn't be sure that the puppy food has more calories. Some (large breed) puppy foods are lower in calories than the adult.

The important thing is the calcium and the calcium/phos. ratio.

It is not the calories per cup - it is how many cups you are feeding.

I'm sorry, vets get stuck on some things they have no new knowledege of. Most vets don't raise or breed dogs and are not that knowledgable on various foods.

Check into the foods and calories for yourself.

This sort of vet advice has been a recurring topic in my household this week. My attitude is that veterinarians shouldn't advise changes unless THEY are willing to live with the outcome. If they advise early spaying, then they should be willing to take the incontinent female that may result and clean up after her for the rest of her life --- right??? If they advise changing food from what the breeder recommends, then they should be willing to live with the undersize, oversize, rangy, stunted, etc. adult that looks nothing like its siblings that results from feeding some brand THEY sell. I, for one, am tired of vets convincing owners to do things (frequently to line their pockets) without explaining the potential negative outcomes - and then blaming anything that goes wrong on the BREEDERS!

Sorry.... just needed to vent.

My repro vet just told me to feed my puppies large breed puppy food, not regular puppy food or performance formulas. He says the research shows that there is a decrease in ortho problems such as HOD or Pano in puppies fed large breed puppy food.

I personally like how my puppies look on performance food... But he got me to thinking...

Part of the problem is the research comes from the pet food companies. You may ask why is this a problem........ well - they start out with their premise in mind.

For instance, they want to prove puppy food is indeed a better choice for your growing puppy, so they feed it and evaluate the puppy. Seldom are double blind tests run and seldom is actual real world data studied. Their goal is geography, they want to fill up as much of your local pet store as possible.

Puppy food is not subdivided into multiple breed specific or size. How about this? Give us a decent food with more information on the label. Calories per cup for one thing. Amount of calcium and phosphorus per cup. Let us evaluate.;

I'm a fan of puppy food. I have always fed a high quality puppy food till 9-12 months of age and I recommend my pet buyers feed Large Breed puppy till 12 months.

As an employee of a major pet food company I have learned there is so much more to food than just what you can read on the bag.

http://www.royalcanin.us/library/brochures.aspx
The growth of Large and Giant breed puppies is a great read.

We all recommend what we are comfortable with and what works for our dogs. There is no one food that fits all dogs and there never will be. But, I couldn't agree more that I hate when vets go against my recommendations. Mostly because I know the majority of them are not trained on nutrition!

We switch to adult food at 16 weeks and have for years after having had puppies with Pano several times. Since we have done this we have not had a case of Pano. There is no reason to stimulate growth when it can have adverse affects. When they are about a year I put them on performance to help them to fill out. Why feed large breed puppy when Labs are not a large breed?

Totally agree with FOOD. The idea that a puppy somehow is supposed to grow fast does not make sense.

Elizabeth that brochure is indeed interested for an advertisement. It is hard to understand the benefits of feeding a puppy food over feeding an adult food. What is the major difference in these two nutrient sources?

There are many articles written suggesting that rate of puppy growth does not affect the adult size of the dog. I read this as follows, why rush the size of the young dog? I see so many dogs in the puppy ring who are quite large and obviously overfed (fat). They sort of waddle and jiggle. Not a good idea to do this to young animals.

It is obvious to me these dogs are being fed too much nutrition while they are growing up out of the whelping box.

Other than venting due to some recent irritations in my own life, I had not planned to get into this topic. It is really touchy as everyone has an axe to grind. I will try to keep my input short (ha) to add food for thought.

Choice of dog foods follows the "law of unintended consequences." You choose a food to feed your youngsters. The ones that grow up to meet your expectations without problems like pano, etc. are the dogs you put into your next generation. The pups from that breeding that grow up well and look like what you want ON THAT FOOD give you the basis for your next generation. By the time you have done this for three generations (for example) you have selected for a genetic predisposition to grow desirably on a particular nutritional input. If you then sell one of those pups to someone who feeds a different food that THEIR dogs grow best on, you may really get into some problems. The pup you kept is growing fine, but the one getting a different excellent food has recurring pano, is growing too fast, is stunted, etc. WHY???

Even though it was not your intention to set growth pattern to a particular food, it was an unintended consequence of selecting a particular food for several generations. You use what worked well for you and kept the dogs in your breeding program that grew to be what you wanted on that food. If you do this for enough generations, then you eventually have a growth pattern linked to a particular nutrient mixture. When people use a completely different nutrient balance to raise a pup of your breeding, it probably does not grow to look like its parents or siblings. I have certainly seen this a number of times over the decades in my own breeding.

So, if you want to feed brand XXX, buy a pup from someone who raises dogs you like on that brand! A few years ago, I had an inquiry from someone who feeds raw. I explained that I had never used raw feeding and didn't know how my pups would grow and develop on a raw diet. My suggestion to her was to find a breeder who had been feeding raw for at least two generations AND had dogs that the buyer liked as adults. She did and purchased a really lovely youngster who grew to look like his parents/siblings. I have no doubt that she would have been disappointed in a pup from me because it would likely NOT have looked like its parents or siblings.

So.... my best advice is IF you trust the breeder and like his/her adults, then follow the breeder's guidance on what to feed at different ages. They know how THEIR dogs grow on those foods.

I do think 4 months is too young to stop a puppy food. I keep mine on puppy food until about 8 months and then switch, which is what I recommend to puppy buyers. But like everything else, once a pup leaves here I no longer "call the shots."

Two additional thoughts on the subject.... First, I believe a dog's adult height and bone mass is determined more by genetics than nutrition, and they'll attain their predetermined size as long as they received good nutrition from birth. I breed very moderate dogs, and I'm not going to get leg bone the size of a human thigh (exaggeration...) by feeding more or different food. Some of the puppies I see in sweeps are almost as large as my adults, but mine just don't grow that way.

Second thought - rather than choosing one formula for life from the myriad choices that dog food companies insist are "the best", perhaps our dogs would be better served by feeding a blending of several of 4-5-6+ top quality feeds so no single ingredient is overlooked or shortchanged. Not practical for pet buyers, perhaps.

I like that vet. I NEVER put my puppies on puppy food EVER. I feed raw but also give Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance since most people buying pups will probably not feed the way I do but I want them to at least get the best kibble. Natural Balance is for all ages. My pups grow justs fine. I have known many people who give puppy food for a long time, get heavy pups and have orthopedic problems down the road. I do what works best for my gang and so far so good.

The one and only time I switched a puppy from puppy food to adult food at 4 months of age, he had to worst case of pano I have ever seen. I try not to change foods at 4 months if possible.

What are the age and signs of pano? What is the treatment and prognosis? My 5 month old is limping in her left front. Thank you.

I just panicked. Vet check this a.m., pup is fine.

I leave my pups on ProPlan Puppy (Original) Chicken & Rice until approx 7 - 8 months old. I have a high percentage of OFA Excellent hips and healthy dogs.

I think reducing their food at 16 weeks is probably the worst time to switch. While they are teething, I believe they need the extra nutrition, and if they can't get it from the food they steal it from the bones and organs.Once ALL the adult teeth are in, then I switch to Adult.

I also agree that feeding generations the same food makes a difference. In the old days (over 30 years ago) I fed Ken-l Ration Biskit. Most of the pros did. The breeders before me had also fed that food for 45 years to that bloodline. We had terrific results. When they discontinued KenL B, I switched to ProPlan. It took me 2 to 3 generations to get back the bloom my dogs had on KB. I always feed the same brand to my pups that the mom is fed and get great results.

This discussion is very interesting. How about selection of a stud dog? If you are breeding to an outside dog, should you take into consideration how the dog has been fed. If the pups are more likely to do well if fed what has worked for the mother's bloodlines, wouldn't that be true for the bloodlines behind the father as well?

That has been my experience, Peggy. Studs from very different lines may produce pups that grow very differently on what I feed. I do ask what food the dog was raised on to plan accordingly

Same here, Laura. Many of us oldtimers fed Ken-L-Ration Biskit and mourned the loss of it. Luckily, I had always fed my puppies Purina, so my pups stayed on the same type of food (even through Purina formula changes). I have seen what my pups grow like fed Science Diet or Euk. It isn't pretty! They are shaped like Dobermans. I just have to be careful when I breed out to a dog from entirely different lines or a nice import that was raised on VERY different food. Sometimes the first generation is not what I expect

I wasn't being vague. A good, typical un-neutered pup raised on certain foods grows LONGER long bones, less rib spring, and as adults does not look at all like its parents or siblings. This was true in pups from several different litters over the years and in two different breeds. My pups grow to look like my adults when they are fed food like I feed. Pups from the same litters that were fed Science Diet or Eukanuba grew taller, narrower and did not look typical of the breed. I hope that is clear now.

This is what led me to the conclusion that food choice follows the law of unintended consequences - after a few generations we only get the same outcome by putting in the same genes AND food.

Try switching the tall one on PP C&R to ProPlan Performance All-Stages. One of my males did the same thing. When trying to eat the C & R All Stages, the added quantity to try and fatten them up just caused loose stools. The Performance has more protein, more Fat and more Calories.

I recently bought a puppy from a top breeder of speciality winning dogs. He is a show prospect and I am feeding him PP Performance. So far he looks good and like what I expected. His breeder does not feed ProPlan. I just find this hard to believe. It would seem if it were true that you have to feed the same as the breeder (does this hold true for Old Roy too?)you'd have a lot of unhappy folks who have paid $2000+ for a show puppy and it never turned out--hmmm maybe that *is* the problem.

Some foods are "similar" in nutrient makeup. Some are quite different. In my decades of experience, I found Science Diet and Eukanuba to be very different from the Purina products I used. However, they may be a lot like some other brands and give similar results. If you are getting a good outcome on PP, then it is probably similar in many ways to what the breeder has been using. Who knows, you may get a BETTER outcome and have the breeder changing foods

Your last joking comment is not far off the mark!