I've read the AKC rules, but I can't figure this out. If a dog goes WD or WB to finish his/her championship at a show and then goes on to win BOB at that same show over specials, is that dog eligible for GCH points?
What about Select points under the same scenario if the dog doesn't win BOB?

The answers tto your questions are no and no. WD or WB do not get GCH points by going BOB. They have to be entered in the BOB class or moved up to that class prior to the start of judging.

And to further clarify the second part of your question, class dogs/bitches are not ELIGIBLE for the select award, only champions in the BOB/BOV competition. At a specialty, they may be awarded a JAM, but only champions can earn a select award.

Veterans and I also believe hunting dog/bitch are eligible as well. If they are not champions, they do not get the points, but these non-regular class winners who become eligible to compete in the BOB class by virtue of winning their class may or may not be champions. I took select dog at a recent specialty show with a veteran who was not a champion. Unfortunately judges cannot ask if the veteran is finished or not. I would have much rather received the JAM and allowed a champion to get the Grand Champion points.

Sorry... I left out a word in my sentence - "regular". It should read "Regular class dogs/bitches are not eligible." Non-regular class CHAMPIONS are eligible for select awards and GCH points. Of course they can! They simply ask the steward
Clearly your dog was one of the top contenders. A JAM would have been the appropriate award, leaving the select ribbon and GCH points for another entry.

Maureen, since you are a judge, perhaps you might want to familiarize yourself with the "Grand Champion judging procedure". In part it states: "Judges and stewards are reminded not to inquire about eligibility. Any Grand Championship points awarded to class winners, non-Champions or dogs that are otherwise ineligible will be administratively disallowed by the AKC." You may read the policy on this link: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/judges/grand_champion_procedure.pdf

So while winners of the non-regular class, whether finished or not, can receive the select award. If they are determined to be ineligible, as determined by AKC, the points will be disallowed.

This is exactly what I was told by AKC when I chaired a specialty last year right after the new GCH rules went into effect. The judge isn't permitted to ask the stewards which dogs in the ring are non-champions.

Thank you so much for the clarification. I couldn't find that document on the AKC site when I tried to reply to this question. I had read it, but did not recall the part about "don't ask, don't tell." The Rules Applying to Dog Shows is not very clear about the Select award. It is part of the GCH system, but there doesn't seem to be any direct guidance about awarding it to dogs ineligible for a GCH. In fact, there is really no guideline for what the "select" award represents outside of the GCH program. I am not the first (nor will likely be the last) judge to find the lack of criteria a bit challenging

Thanks again for the link. I will bookmark it for future reference.

It is amazing to me how many judges fail to educate themselves on the Select procedure. No the judge should not ask if the dog is a Champion. But, if that dog was WD or WB they should know that dog is NOT eligible for a Select award. I've seen judges hand Select to their Winners and even at a specialty recently the judge gave the select ribbons to BOB and BOS. It's the judges job in the ring to know how those ribbons should be awarded!

If you had to wade through the confusing collection of guidelines, policy addendums, advisories, etc. provided by AKC, you might understand why "education" is somehow missed in the process. If you don't believe me, try to find out exactly what the Select award represents. Is it the second best of a sex? Is it a dog (bitch) that you thought was a top contender for BOB/BOS? I understand Awards of Merit for dogs/bitches nearly equal to the best of each sex. I understand foreign judging where it is common to award a RUBOB (Runner up BOB). Those make sense. Select doesn't seem to have any clearcut criteria or reason except to spread the GCH points around.

If I missed something, then there are a lot of us who did. I have talked about this with judges at seminars and some refuse to award select because they don't see a clear criteria for the award. I "get" the GCH program, but the select award is sort of a bastard child that hasn't quite found its place as yet. Be gentle with us judges until we learn where "Simon and Gar Farkle" fit into the family show photo

If you and some of the judges you've spoken to don't understand where the GCH fits in then you need to go back to the books. We as exhibitors spend a lot of money entering under certain judges with the hope they are knowledgable on what they are doing when judging no matter what new award can be presented !!!

Okay, got it. Thanks. So under the aforementioned circumstances, the dog/bitch would be eligible as a move up at the very next show.

You're welcome. I like to keep answers simple for the simpleminded ones who get caught up with a lot of hot air.

I gather this outburst was directed at me. If you actually READ what I wrote, you will understand that I do support the GCH program. The "select" award is just not clearly defined for those of us who are expected to award it. I understand how it spreads the GCH points to dogs that do not win the top awards, but the criteria for awarding select is missing. We are told we don't "have" to award it, but if you choose not to do so frequently, you will hear about it. Select only counts for champions, but you don't always know whether a dog in your BOB ring is a champion or not. So..... you are encouraged to award select, even though it is meaningless except for the GCH points.

If you, as a judge, think select means the next best dog/bitch after BOB/BOS, you may end up awarding it to an ineligible dog because it is superior to the champions in the ring. One poster commented that had happened to him/her. If you think of it as just a means of spreading GCH points around, you may end up awarding it to really mediocre champions just because they bothered to enter and show up. So, unlike any other conformation award, the Select is not based strictly on quality. I hope you understand that even judges who fully support the GCH program have some qualms about the Select award as it is currently defined.... or undefined

Don't flatter yourself Maureen. Although I initially posted because you were giving out the wrong information it wasn't aimed at you because of who you are, but rather what you were saying. You have said on this forum that you post because you don't like to see misinformation on here. You are the supposed "expert" and do like to come off as a know-it-all. I am not a judge, but it took me all of about 5 minutes to find the information that proved you wrong. You're the judge, you're supposed to know this stuff.

Regardless of whether or not you personally agree with the Grand Champion program or not, you are supposed to be a judge and not let your personal views cloud your judgement. Like it or not, this is now part of the judging process. The exhibitors seem to be able to figure it out so why not the judges? We're not supposed to tell the judges their job, they are supposed to know.

The way I see it, by awarding a Select award you are saying that although this dog was not quite as good as my BOB/BOS, it is still worthy of being a Grand Champion. If you do not feel the remaining dogs in your Breed ring are worthy, then you withhold the award. Simple as that. I've seen very sharp judges do this in a small entry. Eventhough there was another champion in the ring, the dog was not up to Grand Championship quality on that day and therefore did not get the award. It's not your job to try to determine whether or not the dog is eligible or whether or not it may already be a GCH. Your job is to selected your top placements WITHOUT bias. If you knew ahead of time if the dog is a Ch or not, that might unfairly influence your decision. Also, the Select award, because it is given before the JAMs, means that these dogs were just a tad better than your JAMs yet not quite as good as your BOB/BOS.

So please, take your own advice and stop spreading misinformation and your own personal bias as a judge. If I knew a judge had this type of bias and didn't take the placement/award/title serious, I would NEVER show to them.

First, I was not replying to you. I was replying to "bothered by". Second, I THANKED you for the link and the information. I clearly used different search criteria than you did and found other links. THANK YOU again for doing so and I do feel better informed about the RULES for awarding select. There is still no written clear criteria, but I'm glad you seem to have it very clear in your own mind. The way you see it seems to work for you in concept, but you don't have to apply it in the ring. Not all of us judges agree it is as simple as you make it, but I certainly APPRECIATE the time you have taken to explain your thinking on the topic.

Several posters seem to have the impression that I do not agree with the GCH program. Again, this is a matter of not reading carefully. I have stated in at least three posts that I support the program. I would just like a more clear written guideline on the Select award. Your explanation is TEN TIMES better than any that we judges have been given so far.

One of the problems some of us have run into with this program is that the BOB/BOS are automatically awarded GCH points if they are champions. In some cases, I wouldn't consider those dogs worthy of being a champion, much less a GRAND champion. They were awarded BOB by being the best dog there on the day - which is occasionally not saying much. If there are several mediocre champions in competition, the rest of them would be not quite as good as the BOB. They would be eligible for Select, but certainly not worthy of being a GCH. Heck, if you don't think the BOB is worthy, then how could you award a select to one of the other champions? In fact, the next best dog to BOB/BOS might be your winners dog/bitch. Technically, they CAN be awarded select! Of course, it is meaningless because they are not eligible for the GCH points, but at least you gave the award to the most deserving dog/bitch. Right?

I am not trying to be a "know it all" - quite the opposite. I admit that on the topic of Select I appreciate any meaningful guidance. I am just voicing the ambivalence that some judges feel toward the Select award (NOT TO THE GCH program!!!). Thanks for the time you have taken to explain your thinking and how you would handle selection. It has been more helpful than the "carefully worded" communications from AKC on the topic.

BTW, since I have stated repeatedly that I support the GCH program, exactly what "bias" is it that you find so upsetting?

this is whey she is not asked to Judge.

And because she has pulled out the wicket at least one too many times. Both *Except for.....*, *No Doubt* and a few others summed it up well without a chapter & verse of nonsense and inaccuracies.

*Oldtimer*, quoting your advice to others quite often, go back and *READ* then *Re-read* the GCH rules. This way you, as a judge will now know another AKC rule you were apparently totally unaware of yet should have been. Take off the blinders and whatever you stuff in your ears so you appear correct to yourself and others that don't know the answers *all* of the time as you try to appear to. You got caught with your bloomers down around your ankles this time.

I have always wondered whether the GCH program is not just a $ maker for AKC and not a whole lot more. It seems like if any dog is specialed they will become a GCH - I know people who have finished their dogs knowing that if they just show up they will get the last points they need to finish. Earning select at a large show like a specialty where there are typically many specials entered is one thing, but to earn it just because your dog is a CH and was entered is silly. To me, the GCH title does not mean anything other than people like to special their dogs.

Hi,

I am not sure this is correct..I have not gone in to double check, but I was under the impression that BOB/BOS are NOT automatically awarded GCH points just because they win that award. The judge has to note on the PPW in the area provided if GCH points are awarded. If they were automatic for BOB/BOS winners, why the need for the box to check off? The judge has the right to withold GCH points completely if they feel the dogs aren't worthy of them. They don't have to award Selects to any of the other Best of Breed entrants either.

That is my understanding and I have seen a judge withold GCH points on BOB/BOS dogs

I ran into this last year when they started the GCH awards

The judge and steward said that the BOB does not gets GCH points

I called AKC after the show and they told me that they would correct the judges sheets, if it was not noted GCH points

BOB and BOS if champions, automatically get GCH pts

I disagree with your last sentence. I think the GCH is bringing more owners and their dogs out to special, just for the GCH title eventually. I don't think they normally would be doing so if the GCH hadn't begun. Jmho.

Wrong again Maureen. Perhaps you did not thoroughly read the procedure in the link I provided. To answer your question, you do NOT have to award GCH points to any of your eligible winners. "Judges may withhold any Grand Champion awards at their discretion.
The Best of Breed/Variety judge will be required to certify that awarding of Grand Championship points are to deserving dogs.
Best of Breed ________ Best of Winners ________ Best of Opposite Sex ________
I certify that in my opinion the Best of Breed_______, Best of Opposite Sex________, Select Dog ________ and Select Bitch________ are deserving of “Grand Championship” points on this day.
Please enter catalog number if awarded. If BOB, BOS, Select Dog or Bitch are deemed not deserving mark as N/A and inform the exhibitor of your decision."

You're welcome.

QUOTE: "I've seen judges hand Select to their Winners and even at a specialty recently the judge gave the select ribbons to BOB and BOS. It's the judges job in the ring to know how those ribbons should be awarded!"

To clarify, you can order DARK GREEN SPECIAL PRIZE rosettes/ribbons to give to your BOB and BOS to signify that you awarded them GR CH points. GR CH points are NOT automatic, so by giving them the special prize rosettes, you are confirming you also gave them the GR CH points. Only the Select rosettes/ribbons are Light Blue & White. JSLRC does this every year at their specialties. We like the winners to have another memento showing they won GR CH points at our specialty.

From the AKC Website: http://www.akc.org/enewsletter/ecbulletin/2010/summer/grand.cfm
"Light blue & white ribbons are required to be offered for SD & SB in each breed. In order to minimize expenses for clubs, additional GCH ribbons are not required for BOB or BOS. However, clubs may offer a dark green “Special Prize” ribbon or rosette for GCH BOB and GCH BOS if desired."

Laura, you're always full of good, accurate information.

Maureen, if you had judged since the GCH program was rolled out you would have known all of this. It is NOT confusing at all. Perhaps you should have an AKC Field Rep explain it to you like they do to new Provisional judges the next time you judge.... oops, that might be awhile based on when the last time was and when the next time is according to the AKC website.

Sure would be nice if the judges understood the Select award before a judging assignment.
I once showed my BISS CH special at a show with majors and he was one of 2 CH boys. The other got BOB and the judge made no choice for Select in dogs or bitches. Class ended and winners lined up.
I was there for GCH points and felt really funny asking but I did. Judge says " oh yeah, sure" and points me to the lineup.
How unprofessional and embarrassing for me!!!
Surely my beautiful BISS winning special was deserving of the Select! The judge forgot!!!

I was shocked when I read how rude this thread became..... Shame on all of you!

You feel *all* were rude on this thread? I don't feel the same way. Almost every thread on here has someone that can be considered rude. I don't see where all posters were rude. I am sorry to disagree with you Saddened.

The correct information should be out there for all breeders and judges to know. I want to know accurate information about what's happening in the show ring at every show I attend or read the results of. The information is also on AKC to view if you don't want to read it here.