I was viewing various websites. I found a breeding chocolate to chocolate, blacks and chocolate puppies?

My understanding is chocolate to chocolate produces all chocolate unless both carry yellow which would then produce both yellow and chocolate. Am I wrong?

Thanks in advance for any input you can give me. I am baffled.

Are they stating that the pups are black, or are you just seeing some pups darker than others?Are you sure both parents are chocolate, or are you just depending on photos?

Based on two chocolate parents, DOB listed, then blacks and chocolates. My question was is that possible? Not to trash or start a issue just wanting to know if after 20 years all that I have learned is wrong?

Again thanks for any input.

Technically, no, it is not possible. But, there have been reports of the impossible happening. But, I would be highly suspect of the parentage of a chocolate to chocolate breeding that produced blacks. Just as I would be suspect of a yelow to yellow that produced blacks. There have been reports, but I have trouble believing it.

Thank You!

Yes, there can be blacks from two chocolate parents. It is rare, but it is genetically possible.

It's not just rare, it's extremely, extremely rare to the point that it would be more common that a black produced out of two chocolates is not sired by the correct dog. It takes one copy of the "B" allele to produce the black pigment needed to cause a pup to be black (among the correct combo of the "E" allele for coat color). Chocolates only carry the "b" allele. In order for a pup to be black it would have to have a mutated gene. Any time there is a black out of two recessive parents, DNA should always be done.

I have never ever seen it. It's explained by the poster right before me.

I have done more Bc to Cc or Cy because I prefered the Bc stud-dog's pedigree then C to C. I never saw anything differing chocolate in a C to C breeding be it Cy or Cc. Always chocolates. We had 11 of 12 chocolates 1 black in Bc to Cy breeding but never a black with an Chocolate to Chocolate. If you did, you better check the DNA of the pups. AKC will do it, at your expense.

What is that? What a great ignorant you are....

No it's called common sense, education and experience. You are probably one of those silver breeders. It's highly highly unlikely you will ever see a black from two chocolate parents. If you do, it's more than likely an oops breeding. Believe what you want, but it is your ignorance showing not the long time, educated, responsible breeder that speak from experience and education.

I have explained how the chocolate breeding works based on the copy of the alleles that they inherit. Sorry you are too ignorant to know what that means.

Super, super rare. Indeed most likely just a mis-match, which DNA testing can uncover. But it is not impossible.
Here is one hypothesized way it could happen (last paragraph under the Sable topic). Take it for what it is worth.
http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Sable

How about this a friend got a choc pup from a chocolate to chocolate breeding the pup is now 12 weeks & has a streak of white all the way down its back straight down the top of the tail..whats that about?

Would love to see a photo! Any chance you could post one?

The ignorant one is the person who doesn't bother to get the facts straight. Are you so afraid of something YOU don't understand that you have to belittle those who have studied it?

If you want to discuss this with someone who can fill you in on the genetics of this RARE situation, call Randy at DDC. They get occasional black dogs with two genetic markers for chocolate from chocolate parents. I also have first-hand knowledge of two litters where a black pup (or two) came from two chocolate parents and the AKC DNA tests verified the parentage. It is complicated to explain, but it is genetically possible and it does happen.

Wow, because we say that there is a slight possibly it could happen, that is some how being ignorant? I feel so belittled by being called ignorant.

Wow, you sure changed your tune! Now you admit that there is a possibility it could happen. Here is what you initially said

It was your intention to ridicule someone for a simple statement of scientific fact just because you were not aware of the information. It seems that you are the ignorant one on this topic. Don't be so quick to put others down when you don't have all the facts.

No, I didn't change my tune, but do know how the colors are inherited based on which alleles control which expressions. If you read one of my previous posts, I said that there have been a reported cases that are extremely, extremely rare. There are thousands of chocolate to chocolate breedings a year and you can only find 2 cases out of this? Again, I have a feeling this is a silver breeder and being that the foreign dilute gene also works to modify certain alleles, that may have something to do with it as. Oh wait, I'm just an ignorant person who just throws chocolate dogs together for 25 years and have only produced chocolates, no blacks no silvers. I must have bad lines.

Some people display their lack of understanding for the "science" of this topic in their own comments.

The gene for dilution does not "change" the gene mutations in TYRP1 that produce the base color other than "diluting" their expression.The gene sequences that produce "chocolate" are the same regardless of breed. Some breeds commonly have only one and others have more. The Labrador has been shown to have at least 3 different mutations in the TYRP1 sequence that contribute to producing chocolate. How these combine is the key to getting the RARE, but occasional, black from two chocolate parents. The fact that I personally have seen this in two completely unrelated litters that were gene tested for parentage and proven to be accurate demonstrates that it happens in more than one line. It may happen more often than "good breeders" admit - especially if they share the viewpoint that it could only be the result of a mismating. I wonder how many black pups from chocolate parents ended up hidden or destroyed due to this sort of thinking.

Before rejecting information from others just because it is outside your experience, do some research. Trying to put down others by making statements that demonstrate your lack of real scientific knowledge is not helpful - to those reading this thread or to your own exploration of the topic. Open your minds, read the research and stop passing your own opinions off as science. We have enough politicians already doing that these days

That's called a mismark, and while the chance of producing the same exact mismark again, they are common.

For all the know it alls that think you CAN get a black from 2 chocolates, why doesnt someone show us their dog or a pup they sold like this? No shame in proving us wrong, but no one ever does in threads like this.

No, this is not necessarily a mismark. Mismarks are present at birth. Sometimes you will see white hairs in different patterns. Some say it is a zinc deficiency. It most cases, it is gone with the next blown coat. But I have never seen one as described and would love a photo.

I have never seen that much white hair on a pup, she's very light to start with, like a milk chocolate. I will try to get a pic from my friend but don't even know how to post it.

Just so I understand---the pup did not always have this white hair, right? She developed it after she came to her new owner, is that correct?

I've seen white roots, well almost 50% of the bottom of the hair shaft was white. This was on an 11 month old puppy that was blowing coat. Strangest thing. She was also a milk chocolate color. When her adult coat came in, it was normal and I never saw the white hair again.

First of all, we agree, it *can* happen, but the odds are not just "rare", but extremely rare. It doesn't happen "occasionally", it happens very, very seldom if at all. Maybe the two you've seen were two out of how many hundreds of thousands of Labs bred in the last decade or so where DNA testing has been available to us? Just because *you* know of two, doesn't mean you don't know countless of other chocolate breeders who have bred countless chocolate to chocolate litters and have NEVER produced a black puppy. You have to look at the odds here. Breeders do not just go around "offing" puppies because they don't fit the prescribed color. To suggest it happens to breeders more frequently than we think and they kill them so that no one knows is absurd! It sounds just like the bull that is posted on the Silver website about chocolate breeders producing the dilute and killing those puppies too. No reputable breeder kills, culls and otherwise "offs" their undesirable colored/mismarked puppies. That is what pet homes are for.

With that said, I still maintain that it is more common if a black puppy is produced from to recessive colored parents whether they are yellows or chocolates, that it is the result of another sire. You seem to take offense to that like the Silver breeders do when suggesting that Weimeraners are mixed in to get the color. But by putting out information that makes it seem likes it's an occasional occurrence without suggesting that in the event DNA testing should ALWAYS be done to prove parentage first is providing poor education for newer breeders and backyard breeders. And that's where I take offense. But then again, I take offense when Silver breeders state the dilute gene has always been in our breed to, when in fact, there is no evidence to back up those claims. All they can claim is the same thing, breeders killed them and breeders are closed minded about the color.

How very rude of you to make the assumption that I have not done my reseach or don't know what I am talking about. You say you know of two different litters where this has happened and that parental DNA was done and confirmed that the parents were indeed that parents to the litters DID YOU then parental DNA the parents parents, because as I said perhaps the parents were not as pure bred as their owners thought and maybe were the result of a mismating them selves. Actually I do know what I am talking about, this is what I am trained to do.

Back in '95 I bred my chocolate female to a chocolate male, his sire and dam were both black ? My girl sire black,dam choc. We had one chocolate in the litter the rest were black. I was standing out in the rain breeding these two dogs like you use to have to do to get it done. They were both chocolate. And no, most do not want to believe you. They just say it can't happen. Well it did. I know nothing of the case you all are taking about.

So let me ask you, did you DNA the puppies to prove that there wasn't a different sire or did you just assume that since you stood out in the rain doing the deed, that another dog couldn't have gotten to the bitch earlier or later? Also, doing it the old fashioned way you prolly didn't do progesterone to determine the exact date of ovulation either so who's to say there wasn't another dog in the wood pile?

Back in the 90's, I bred a Yc to a C. The resulting litter should have been theoretically 50% black and 50% chocolate. The whole litter was chocolate. Now while that was technically more of a possibility than say getting black out of two chocolates, I was still highly doubtful my Ch. sire was the actual sire. I asked the bitch owner if she would DNA test the pups. She did and surprise my sire was NOT the actual sire.

All I'm saying is that if it seems to good to be true it usually is. That is why we have DNA testing for parentage. Any time I see an ad for blacks out of two recessive parents, I am highly suspect. There is nothing wrong with that. It keeps us on our toes and if it turns out there is some genetic mutation, then it is a good learning experience. It doesn't mean I'm closed minded or ignorant. I'm always willing to learn, but again, you have to look at the odds and other more common possibilities.

You are a joke. I had the female at my house except to go back and forth. Thats why the day she was ready we had to stand out in the rain. I sure was not going to stop the deed. And there was no way a dog got in my house, I had no males. Like I said you don't want to believe it. Maybe I would not have either had I not been there through it all. But don't talk down to other breeders.