well we have fought about head and coat, so now let's talk tail...I won't even go there as anyone who has been near me ringside already knows what I think !!!!

Then why did you bring it up??

I like a nice thick tail with a beautiful wrap around the tail.

to simply prove some people will argue about the color of grass...opinions, we all know what those are like

OK. You proved you are the type of person who would argue over the color of grass...which does come in a variety of shades. Why bring up a subject you state you don't want to discuss? Just to waste people's time and take up space? Go DO something productive instead.

I like the same, no banana tails for me. But whoa is me, I seem to have a nice girl who tail is not what I love. Just like heads, some I just can not stand.

Straight. Thick. Wrapped. Straight off the back.

I'm a feet girl myself, cant stand sloppy feet with spread out toes such a turn off

I can't keep a dog that has a swoop tail. Hate them!

I'm sorry you are so easily confused. Head, coat, and tail are the "hallmarks" of the breed. I don't intend to argue about anything on here or anywhere else, I'm simply saying what has happened to our otter tails is sad. With the discussion in the last few days being about "rottie heads and then coats" I was commenting on the changes in tails as well. I certainly didn't mean to make you waste your time and as far as the space goes I didn't realise how deeply it would affect you. So the next time you see me, please come up. introduce yourself and I will explain what is wrong with the tails.

Go Debbie!!!

How about feathering? I see many photographs of specialty winners who do not have wrapped tails, as the hair on the lower site of the tail is longer than that on the top, hanging down in feathering. A properly wrapped tail has hair the same length all the way around with a twist in the hairs at the end, a "twiddle".

I think you mean "twizzle" at the end of the tail. BTW, take a look at the Spotlight Dogs -- great examples of what I think is a correct tail.

It won't waste much of our time because you "won't even go there" according to your opening post. Decide if you want to discuss this topic or just brought it up to put it down.

As to what is wrong with Lab tails, consider that length of loin is one of the important factors. If that confuses YOU, feel free to ask.

I'll bite, how does loin length factor in to tail wrapping?

Oh but I would be happy to explain tail to someone who admits to being confused. I have never heard that length of loin was a "hallmark of the breed" It doesn't confuse me at all as in all the years I've been in labs no one ever said that to me. I've had some very good mentors, and they some how missed that? Gracious sakes I don't remember ever reading that length of loin was a hallmark, either. Shut my mouth I must have not been paying attention.
Now sweetie go get your big book of words out and look up sarcasm.
Love Debbie

I would love to read an explanation how length of loin has something to do with a tail.

I agree - you weren't paying attention. The very FIRST line of the breed standard statesIf you prefer UKC, it is The UK standard says
Clearly, all Labrador Retriever standards immediately describe the dog as "short-coupled" - that means a short length of the loin in case your Funk & Wagnalls isn't handy. If that is not a "hallmark" of the breed, then why is it in the first sentence of all the standards worldwide? Maybe you also need to look up the word "hallmark." The loin length and strong build are essential traits that seem to be overlooked by most mentors - but all the standards emphasize their importance in the very first phrase. If you paid more attention to the written description and less to regurgitating what OTHER people may have said in the past, you might form a more relevant mental picture of the ideal Lab.

If you really are interested in how the anatomy of the spine influences a correct otter tail, please email me privately. You seem to be the only one on this forum who is open to the information

Riiiggghhhttttt......so what, exactly, does that have to do with the tail?

Riiiggghhhttttt......so what, exactly, does that have to do with the tail?

Okay ask most breeders of any experience what the "hallmark" of the breed is. It is NOT the whole standard. It has nothing to do with the standard whether it is the first sentence or the 45th. Loin has nothing to do with the "HALLMARK" of the breed. A labrador is supposed to be know by head. coat. and tail. The tails today are curved, carried high, don't come straight off the back, and have hangy down hair rather than wrapped. Look up hallmark. It is a sign of genuineness not the whole thing. And point proven...you will argue about anything !!!!

The "hallmark" of a Labrador Retriever is his temperament.....end of conversation!!!!!

OH MY GOODNESS !!!!!

And you will continue to regurgitate what you have been programmed by others to think instead of actually studying the written standard - which DEFINES what is essential to the breed. Sort loin and sturdy build are the FIRST two criteria. Head, coat and tail are discussed later - but without the correct build and short loin, the dog lacks the "distinguishing characteristics, traits, or features" that are the essence of the breed. Head, coat and tail are NOT the whole standard - type starts with having the correct proportion and builds upon that basic framework to make a distinct breed. Stop just repeating what you have been told by others and start really studying the breed history, function, form and STANDARDS! You might be amazed at what you will learn if you are willing do the groundwork.

Ok....y'all are killing me. I get the standard. I get balance and breed type. I get nice otter tail. I get all of that. The length of loin somehow influencing the correct length of the tail, tapering to a point that is wraped with sufficient coat is absolutely ridiculous.

And I never said a thing about the standard. You brought that up and I don't get what that has to do with what lab people have said is the hallmark of the breed. You seem to be really hung up on the standard. That's a real shame. Ya know there was a big fight about it years ago and now the field people hate the show people and the show people hate the field folks. and we can discuss this till the cow jumps over the moon and it will still be open to each persons own idea of the written word. You can use all the big words you want but the standard is still seen differently by different people. That is why the same animal doesn't win under all judges...Now as I said before I don't intend to argue about "THE STANDARD" I got over that long ago. Ya know you don't have a clue about what I have done or studied or where I have been. Oh but maybe you do, as you don't have the courage to post your name. Bachbachbachbachbachbach

A dog with a Labrador head, coat and tail on the body of a Clumber is not going to look like a Labrador - while the Labrador should excel in head coat and tail, breeders need to move beyond that (many don't) and breed for the whole dog. While the finer points of a dog can and should be evaluated, too many are focusing on one or two points and are losing sight of the whole, which is why this breed is becoming a caricature of what it once was - a functional working breed.

I have heard a billion times that the hallmarks of the breed are head, coat and tail. I also know that many, if not most, of the labs I see do not have what I would call correct heads or coats. I don't think tails are as bad but I see many incorrect tails as well.

Having said that, I think short coupling should be more a hallmark of the breed than head, coat, and tail. Overall proportion between height and length is a critical component of what it means to be a Labrador.

Moderation in substance and angulation should also be hallmarks of the breed.

AMEN! It takes all the parts - and they are described in the WHOLE standard.

...and that is part of your problem. You seem to swallow what others tell you is important without doing your own homework. All you want to process is "opinion" instead of facts.

Actually, you did say something about the standard Again, you accept OPINION instead of bothering to learn from the written history and definition of the breed. The hallmark (genuineness) of the breed IS defined by the WHOLE standard, not just the parts you have been brainwashed to think are important. Without the right proportion, you can not have a correct head or tail. Without the right framework, the coat does not define the breed.

You made it clear in your first post that you were convinced you had the only correct idea and that you were not willing to discuss it. That is a sad statement about your approach to Labradors - or anything else. Are you afraid you might actually learn something new?

As I said to another poster, if anyone is really interested in how a short loin influences a correct tail, you have my email address. So far, everyone has preferred to cling to what they have been programmed to believe by people who "got over" the standard. I am waiting for any posts from those who want to explore the form and function the standard defines. No takers?? No surprise

This is exactly why I never come to the forum any more. The original post was meant to discuss a certain part of the labrador and yet it has broken out into verbal sparring with certain cowardly individuals that won't post their names, trying to invoke their opinions on everyone else. It is like an argument for argument's sake.

Say what you want about me and my opinions because that's all they are...my opinions and I won't be on here to care what anyone else thinks after I post this.

Short-coupled...what does that mean? How many have seen short-coupled labradors that move so wide in the front that you could drive a tractor trailer through their front legs.

Whether you are judging cattle, swine, dogs, horses, whatever...it's all about balance and it's all about what the animal was bred to do.

To me, a strong otter tail gives the labrador the rudder to steer it through the water. I've seen dogs as long as freight trains still be able to work just fine in the water.

While I'm not a complete tail fanatic...I do believe it is a hallmark of the breed.

I can take every word from the standard and make it fit my idea of a labrador but that doesn't make it right. To limit yourself to reading and studying just the standard is you're business. You miss out on people who have hundreds of years in labradors. I never said the whole dogs is not important nor that structurs and balance are not inmportant. You keep putting words in my mouth as I only made a comment on tails. I have tried to get you back to my original "joking" statement. Epiphany...some of the people on here are not worth my fat little fingers hard work. OH NO I changed my mind don't bother coming up to me at the next show you already know everything there is to know.

Again I am confused. If you never come to the forum any more, then how did you get involved in this topic? If you actually READ the original post, it specifically states that the poster does NOT want to discuss the tail. That is why I questioned the reason she posted in the first place. Why bring up a topic and say you are unwilling to discuss it? Maybe you understand her thinking because you have posted in a forum you say you never come to. I try to read posts carefully and consider them logically and both of you are very confusing.

The original post was not written in a manner to spark a conversation as it added nothing to a meaningful discussion. Actually the post was pretty derisive and I am not surprised what ensued from there. I really did not see any point to the original post because thoughtful discussion usually originates from a thoughtful (this being the key word) point of view and one was not offered.

"Miss out on people that have hundreds of years in Labradors"? That for some reason made me laugh out loud. If I was talking to them it would not be about a dog it would be to find out how the heck they got that old!!! LOL!!!!

Ahhh, only thoughtful discussions are allowed here...that I did not know. I didn't realize Jill had started this for serious minded folks only. I made a smart ass remark about tails because I thought the "ROTTIE HEAD" and agruing about coat. feet, and whatever else it is that you diagree with each other about was getting to be a joke. But don't worry I won't expect any of you brave souls to come up, SMILE and introduce yourselves.

Debbie, there is a reason why mentorship is at a minimum in this breed, and it is clearly defined in this thread. I say let them wallow in their ignorance, and allow the cream to rise to the top. Sad but true, one cannot teach the unteachable! Which is why you see the blind leading the blind on this forum, all the experience has left the building!

BRAVO!!! Now theres a great response!

Although I would love some ringside time with one who knows more than I, Debbie, you would not be my first choice. Because of the way you handled yourself on this thread, I would not seek help from someone like you. I do not know you and I am sure that you are a perfectly delightful, knowledgeable person.

But in order for clubs, sports, hobbies etc to continue, mentors and old timers of those clubs/hobbies etc need to be more welcoming, less judgmental, perhaps a little more respectful when delivering their vast experience to new people.

The snarky, disrespectful, sometimes downright childish exchanges in this thread would make me think twice before seeking someone such as yourself for information. And, you're right, you were not alone in those exchanges but...

Thank you for the information that you provided in this thread.

I have only been breeding for 25 years. But I think the issues with the thread have more to do with maturity, character, and intelligence rather than breeding experience.

Just read the stuff....

Which posters are commenting more on the issue and which posters are attacking people?

Which posters are providing reasoning that has more depth? Why do people think what they think? Are they really thinking at all or just parroting words or mindlessly protecting their clique mates?

If someone writes something you disagree with, then explain why you disagree with that. That is how we all learn. Maybe both of you can learn from each other.

But when someone doesn't like something someone writes about an issue, and then attacks that person as a way of discrediting what was written, then the readers have to ask if there is really any knowledge behind that opinion.

It is easy to fall into the trap of attacking back when someone attacks you. When this happens, then both posters lose credibility in my mind. But having said that, it is sometimes a good idea to look to see who is the instigator and who is defending themselves. Not that this lets the defender off the hook, s/he should have the self control not to get sucked down to that level.

Finally, it is OK to disagree. All opinions are not necessarily equal. All opinions are not necessarily right. Some are clearly wrong. But you can have two valid opinions that are of equal merit. Enjoy the different perspectives!

Instead of getting things on track like a real mentor would do, you elected to behave as childishly as everyone else - what about those actions would entice anyone to seek out your opinion at a show? Nothing posted thus far gives anyone a sense that your opinion has any merit over anyone else's ridiculous bickering. There ARE some great mentors out there but they don't behave like this.

Peggy,
As I am sure that you know, one can never assume that the lack of feathering and appearance of correctness is totally natural. A noted breeder-judge, whose dogs I like very much, once wrote an article on how to trim the partly wrapped tail and sort of braid the underside back in place. Hopefully that was used on dogs at a strange point in the coat cycle who normally had a fairly natural wrap, with just a litle line of brush, or dogs who had been force dried or lain funny while the ail was still wet. You can't take a flat coat or setter tail and wrap it really well, can you, after puppyhood? It is not the same as carving a whole poodle out of a pile of hair, but it is showtime as we know it. ("Coping" a dog appeared in the book Lassie Come Home, so this is not a new art, grooming for show.)

I have never claimed to be anyones mentor. I do voice my opinion and if you can't enjoy this hobby then by all means stay away from me. I do this to have a good time with my dogs. I make jokes, silly comments and just in general have fun. Honestly it isn't life or death to me. I just keep hoping labrador people will be as fun loving as their dogs.

How many times on this thread did you invite people to come ringside and introduce themselves so that you could explain your opinion of tails and what has gone wrong with them?? Mentor, ringside help, call it what you like, but you offered your knowledge. All I'm pointing out is that perhaps a bit less sarcasm would make people feel more at ease.

And when someone gets called out for their rude behavior on this Forum, the excuse is always, "well if you can't take it, get out of dogs/shows/breeding etc..." That's a bunch of crap!! Have respect for your fellow breeders/exhibitors/hunters and answer questions without sarcasm. No one on this Forum is any better than the next person, I don't care how long you've been breeding/showing/hunting!!!!

This is a venue for the exchange of ideas. People come here for help, support, news, updates and brags and not to be humiliated for asking a question or for giving an opinion. Because that's what all this is......just people's opinions!!!

And that's my opinion.

You are absolutely right, my opinions are just that. I deal with stupidity with sarcasm and jokes. I didn't realise I had to be absolutely serious. Now that I think about it I have no desire to be so serious that you aren't allowed to post an opinion without some "confused" poor soul asking if you are just wasting their time and space. Well if you can't figure that out my, my, my. So from now on I won't do either on here. Talk about crap, sure seems to be the theme on here, silvers are real, silvers are frauds, heads come from rotties, heards come from greyhounds. short coats, long coats, big feet, little feet, do you feed your puppies or let them starve to death...blah blah blah. I won't bother reading your crap either, so if you want to tell me how awful I am you'll have too email me privcately.

Maybe you shouldn't think about discussing opinions with others as dealing with stupidity???