How easy or hard is it to correct a soft temperament when breeding? I haven't had good luck with it. I had a bitch from a line of confident, unflappable labradors that was bred to a dog with soft temperaments behind him and got soft and shy. That girl when bred produced softer than herself. I scrapped that line as I wasn't improving the breed at all.

Are soft temperaments a problem in the breed or is it just Murphy's law that what you don't want to come out will when breeding dogs?

Could you explain further what you mean by a soft temperament? I am interested in understanding temperament types better. No flames please. Thank you.

I think that curious refers to lack of confidence and shyness. You can test the puppies for temperament and get rid of undesirable temperament which ever it is. There are puppy temperament tests available all over the internet. just pick one and do it on your next litter. You must wait until the puppies are 8 weeks to do it.

Temperament is both genetic and a factor of environment. In my mind, soft is not the same as shy. Sometimes they go together, sometimes they don't. Sometimes shy is a factor of age, as when in a fear period, or shy is a factor of environment, as when keeping too many littermates together without separate outings, training and socialization. The adolescents get a pack order going and a soft pup might not reach its full potential in a kennel full of class clowns--is that what you mean?

True Labrador temperament is soft compared to that of many other breeds, including some other retrievers--and that is a good thing! A soft, willing dog can learn faster and with fewer corrections than a hard head. I will take soft and sweet over aggressive and/or sulky any day, for I have had to make some hard calls with rescues. For collar training and artificial scenarios, some field trialers breed for a tougher temperament. A soft dog can not take harsh corrections without shutting down, but in my experience they usually don't need it. Positive methods work wonders with all temperaments, but all need a reasonable correction sometimes. A soft and willing dog needs a trainer who is smart and positive--a motivational speaker at the other end of the lead, as it were! There is a reason folks carry bait and squeakies, if that is the dog's "currency." The outgoing, happy-dappy dog can be easier to show in any breed, I admit--big classes favor what MR Williams used to call "a showing fool."

From the US standard:

"Temperament
"True Labrador Retriever temperament is as much a hallmark of the breed as the 'otter' tail. The ideal disposition is one of a kindly, outgoing, tractable nature; eager to please and non-aggressive towards man or animal. The Labrador has much that appeals to people; his gentle ways, intelligence and adaptability make him an ideal dog. Aggressiveness towards humans or other animals, or any evidence of shyness in an adult should be severely penalized."

Could you give us some examples of what you find objectionable in your dogs? We might just be misunderstanding you.

Charlotte K. "Sometimes shy is a factor of age, as when is a fear period". What age are fear periods? Thank you.

Excuse the typo in the quoted line.
I've linked to one article on the adolescent (2nd and/or 3rd) fear period. That's when we usually get rescues!

Some folks think that it is best to ignore the fear rather than forcing the dog to confront it, or even just smell it, the latter being what Carol Lee Benjamin used to suggest in her book on the adolescent dog. Almost two decades ago, I overdid trying to socialize a Golden puppy who was one of the survivors in a litter being predated by Great Horned Owls on a farm with an elderly owner who would leave them out at night. She was traumatized, so the more we tried, the worse she got. I finally just let her hang out at home and she then grew up into a placeable adolescent. With most Labs, sniffing that weird dog in the mirror can be just fine--I can't speak about more reactive breeds, such as Border Colies or Dobes. However, if it the pup is truly having a big issue, let it go and don't force things, as some seem to get stuck in the bad experience, as they are after all just learning about the world. That is why good hands on kind judges are so important in the puppy classes! However, if the pup is having a bad time, leave her home or don't force her into showing all weekend.

Pam Dennison's ideas on fear periods are more in line in this one case with my own:

http://www.positivedogs.com/articles/early_doesnt_mean.html
She finds that there can be several fear periods.
She states, "Fear periods are when your young dog all of a sudden is afraid of people, objects or places he used to be comfortable with. Some dogs will manifest that fear into shyness and some into more active “go away” behaviors such as growling or lunging. The time frame I have listed here is approximate, but you’ll be able to recognize those times just by being cognizant of your own dog’s change of behavior.

"Between seven to nine weeks of age
"Anywhere from four to six months
"Again at around 12 months
"At approximately 14 to 18 months and with some dogs can even be as late as 2 years

"So you can see, working your dog through his first or even second fear period is not enough to get him comfortable for life for the myriad of things he will need to accept. Unfortunately this is the time that many people stop socializing their dog. It is also important to know that when your dog is going through a fear period, how you handle it will set the stage for his behavior for the rest of his life.

"If you punish him for the more active “aggressive looking” behaviors, he will think that he was right in thinking that object, person or dog was scary and will continue to display those behaviors. If you coddle and consol him for his shy behaviors, you are actually reinforcing him for being afraid and those behaviors will increase.

"The best thing you can do for your pup during these times is to keep him relatively isolated during the week or so it takes to come out of it. In the past you may have heard the advice of “socialize puppies even more during a fear period.” The only problem with that is at these times, your dog is more vulnerable and increased socialization may very well backfire and create problems. You can still go places and see people and dogs he is familiar and still comfortable with, but don’t let him experience anything new—no new people, dogs, places and most certainly, unless it is life threatening, no visits to the vet. (Put off spay and neuter for a week or two!)

"During the socialization process (and really during his entire life), it is imperative to make sure that he is around only friendly people and dogs."

Depends on what you consider a soft temperament. I have 3 here, mum and 2 of her babies, puppies are almost 2. They have their mothers temperament and it drives me insane, I will NEVER keep 2 puppies from the one litter unless I can place one with a puppy walker like the guide dogs, their mother is not soft in temperament( She acts like she has) but is actually very manipulative,, demands attention when it suits her but won't give you the time of day when it suits her, they are all very animated at home, but in the ring they slap around like old cart horses, for me it is an inherited thing. I also have two one year olds here as well (Not related to the above) both the one year olds are by the same dog but out of different mothers, one mother is quite soft ( I don't own her) and the other mother while not hard at all she is VERY bubbly never has a bad day and her sole purpose in life is to please her owner. The bubbly mother has reproduced her self to a T, the soft mother has reproduced herself also. Everyone talks about socialising puppies, well these two have had the same socialistion ( not much as we live out in the sticks), yet one just powers around the ring, absolutly loves it, and isn't concerned in the least about the business of the show scene,the other I don't bother showing, I would have to drag him around the ring, if it makes any difference, the bubbly one is a girl the soft one is a boy.

I don't know about anyone else, but, I learned a lot from Charlotte. It explained behavior that no one else could help me with. So, one thread can lead to another.

JoJo brings up another important trait, or lack there of. I would say, based on her description, that the mother with 2 year old pups is not biddable - a most important trait. I've met a lot of labs that may be soft in that they are gentle, relaxed and not all over the place, but they have no desire to please. I would consider this a major fault, and have removed dogs from my breeding program who are too independent and less willing to please.

While for the most part I agree with you, I did breed from her again but used a different dog, 2 puppies that I keep in very close contact with, are very different to both their mother and their half brother and sister, the dog pup in particular is very outgoing and just wants to to please his owner. Out of interest I contacted a puppy owner with one of the original litter to see how his boy was going, and he tells me he is a real social butterfly, loves everyone and isn't in the least bit shy, they do however own a shop and the puppy has been going to work with them since he was 9 weeks old and he gets to meet and greet all the customers. So perhaps with that litter I should have done more to socialise them, it would seem some need more than others, but I would like my labradors to be able to take changes and situtions in their stride and just to be happy to be with mum no matter where I am

Curious - if we accept that temperament is pre-disposition, then soft temperaments should be detectable in young puppies. The guide dog trainers with whom we work target outgoing, self-assured puppies at ease in new surroundings and taking new situations in their stride. This is actually one of the reasons Labradors are their preferred breed and I understand your worries.

Whereas environment plays an important role in forming a dog's character, it cannot drastically modify basic temperament, although it can mask certain flaws to some extent. This may seem a bit muddled, but here is something I wrote a while back:

...""As far as I understand, temperament is pre-disposition, i.e. genetic. It is the underlying base on which character is built (through environment, education and experience): temperament and character form the personality of any given individual. True Labradors are pre-disposed to love water, to retrieve, to be biddable, etc... It is therefore part of their temperament and "written into" their genes. If a young dog is seriously aggressed, fear can subsequently become part of its character and, depending on its underlying temperament, it will or will not overcome that fear. Temperament can "temper" character.


In the words of David Keirsey: 

"""...Put another way, our brain is a sort of computer which has temperament for its hardware and character for its software. The hardware is the physical base from which character emerges, placing an identifiable fingerprint on each individual's attitudes and actions. This underlying consistency can be observed from a very early age -- some features earlier than others -- long before individual experience or social context (one's particular software) has had time or occasion to imprint the person. Thus temperament is the inborn form of human nature; character, the emergent form, which develops through the interaction of temperament and environment." This also applies to dogs."

I think softness IS becoming a problem in some of the lines. I have fairly soft dogs. What I consider to be too soft equals "very sensitive"... a dog that you can pretty much look sideways at and they stop in their tracks. Pet homes seem to love these, but I do performance w/ my dogs so whereas sensitive isn't necessarily a bad thing, SOFT isn't the ideal. I find a pup that starts out as sensitive is often far too soft as a performance candidate by the time they are 3 yrs. I like to have a little backbone there to work with since trials etc can be a bit stressful in themselves.

As far as being able to correct/improve upon this, I do think it's possible. My very softest girl had 2 litters. The first I wasn't happy w/ by the time they were mature for the same reason, but it should have been no surprise in retrospect (stud owner told me he was an "up" dog but they had never done any working titles on him so he really was never challenged). The next litter was w/a younger male that was already SH titled and going for his MH. Those pups are MUCH more to my liking. Anne

I think a lot of the softness is taken from modeling mom or whoever is close by. I had a pup from a very confident mom that was raised in house with a very shy dog (which I eventually returned to breeder after paying a therapist for ideas, etc.). The pup from confident mom became (temporarily) shy even though she was going out with me for hunt training and obedience training. One day I watched pup when strangers came, she was watching shy dog hide under a chair. Pup then crouched when petted. Within a few months of the shy dog leaving us, pup became bubbly, happy and confident.

I realise this sounds like I am equating soft with shy, which is not equal. But think my situation makes a point. A confident stud is not present usually to model the behavior for pup, the soft mom is the one raising pup - hence even if you are fixing genetics, there is a remaining issue. I'd try taking a soft pup at 7 or 8 weeks and putting them with a more confident, outgoing bitch for awhile and see if things change. Take them out together to parks, etc. to socialize.