Looking to do a co-ownership on a dog with a fellow dog person. What things should be discussed, written about in a contract?

I wouldn't be considering it if the person wasn't a fellow dog person with similar goals.

TIA!

Who will pay entry fees?
Who will pay for clearances?
Who will decide if/when dog is bred?
When will the breeder sign off on the dog, if ever?
If the co-owner in essence "owns" the dog, makes the day to day training and care decisions, pays the vet bills, and the upkeep, etc., and the breeder's "co-own" is to retain breeding rights in the future, what responsibilities does the breeder have for the above expenses?
Just for starters.

Here's some advice. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!

My co-owner and I have a great relationship. Neither one puts unreasonable demands on the other. We help each other out whenever the need happens. We ask each others' advice, sometimes we take it, sometimes we decide differently, but always with good motives and consideration to the other's point of view. Never a problem with deciding stud dogs, breedings, puppies, placing dogs, etc. I trust her and she trusts me. We have never had any contract and we have co -owned at least five lovely dogs, including several champions.

It's all about being honest, truthful, respecting and trusting the other person. A piece of paper can't bring you that type of peace of mind and confidence.

I have several great co-ownerships. I don't expect much and I am there with as much support as the other owners want.

I don't do the co-ownership unless I would be fine just selling the pup outright to the person. I don't put unrealistic expectations on the other owner.

As the breeder, I only put the co-own in place so that the other owner can have Full Registration, usually because they have expressed that they are interested in showing/breeding. They own the dog, they pay for everything. I don't charge them more, and I don't discount the pup. I have final approval on stud. I get one puppy back from the litter of my choosing, if they choose to breed at all.

I will sign off on the dog after clearances are met and the return pup is delivered, or if the co-owner wants to alter the dog, or if I just decide I trust the person that much that I have no fear that they aren't going to do anything stupid with an intact Full registration dog, I sign it over.

The key here is to not part with a dog that you wanted to keep but couldn't because in that case you are always thinking that it's YOUR dog. Then when things aren't done exactly the way you want, you are going to feel bitter.

At least that's my take on it as a breeder who's put some dogs out there on a co-own.

I too have had many successful co-ownerships, and each one of them had different contractual arrangements, from being co-owner on paper only to a complete 50:50 split of everything. It all depends on what each owner wants out of the arrangement. On the other hand, I have had one absolutely disastrous co-ownership. My recommendation would be to only co-own with someone you know REALLY well, and if you don’t, then talk to every single breeder that has been involved with your potential co-owner to get their honest feedback. That includes breeders of current dogs, breeders of puppies that were returned, owners of stud dogs, former/current co-owners, etc. If I had done that, I might have avoided an absolutely ridiculous amount of stress for me and for the poor bitch that was involved. I never was able to get her back which I regret to this day.

Yes, to what Happy said and I do the same. Pretty much name only. Your dog. Pup back, help decide stud dog.

I am currently considering a co-ownership myself. He is a lovely older puppy with show potential. I'm on the fence about it- I don't THINK my co owner would steer me wrong at this point, but horror stories abound!

I have had several co-ownerships. Lots of good ones. A couple of horrible ones.

In my experience it is good to write down the "major points of the co-ownership" on paper. Keep your contract simple and straight forward. Make sure both parties thoroughly read it and agree on paper. I always include the clause, this contract can be amended at anytime by both parties "in agreement, in writing". This is not to be a "legal" document as much as it is to be a clear understanding between both parties.

Don't be vague, that is how assumptions are made and disagreements start. The BEST of friends can disagree about or misunderstand the details of a co-ownership.

In my experience seasoned breeders are easier to deal with. They know when to cut their losses, compromise and bring their knowledge to the table. My hat's off to them.

Right now I am a little bitter about newbies. I find they expect too much. They want the next to perfect dog and feel they know "a lot". You don't often find this out until "AFTER" you sold them a dog. And often times they don't live up to or complain about the contract they signed. The wonderful newbies are far and few between.

Fine example of my difficult "newbie" co-ownership. If I had researched the person, I would have known.

- when it came time to pick my puppy from the litter, one puppy was missing. Apparently gone home.

- they lied about the litter saying only 4 pups were born. I found out later they went to bed after the 3rd pup, thinking it was the last and 4 more were born. 3 dead.


Fine example of my wonderful co-ownership. The persona was so easy to deal with. We have amended our agreement a couple of times to suit the bitch not having many pups. Both people have compromised and both people have been giving and honest with each other. It just works. We get along amazingly.

Thank you for your insight. Sometimes it's hard to see the other side of the situation. The only way to get started in showing is to co-own a competitive dog. I can see your point about not trusting the "newbies" but I think that's where a mentorship is important- not just signing a paper and leaving the person to fend for themselves.

Put it on Paper, in regards to the example of your bad co-own, were the folks not open to your advice or did they not ask? Like if I were co-owner on a litter with a newbie, I would have explained 100 times that we do an xray to count pups before the litter is whelped, you stay up to make sure that many are whelped, and I would probably be on the phone/email with them all night to make sure things were running smoothly. Now of course if they aren't OPEN to the hand-holding, you can't do much, but I am wondering if you were expecting them to know things when they didn't or if they just were sucky people.

There are as many different co-own agreements as there are people to enter into them. But, many if not most, are in name only. You sell someone a pup as if it were an outright sale. Your name is kept on because there is usually a pup coming back and then you would be listed as the breeder.

If you want anything more than that, get it clearly in writing.

The O.P. is asking from the perspective of the breeder. But, it is very important for the other person to protect themselves as well. Often breeders will want to co-own with others as it can be a great advantage to grow a breeding program that way, and can simply be a profit makeer. They will say they are easy to work with and are hands-off but then will try to pressure you into doing what they want. Keep in mind that this is often a more established breeder trying to take advantage of someone who doesn't know any better. I see this scenario all the time.

Actually I haven't ever left anyone to fend for themselves. I have always been available to help, mentor and made that perfectly clear.
Some just feel they know it all.

I didn't expect them to know anything. They told me they did. Said they had whelped several litters before.

If anyone calls for help, "anyone" I will help.

I agree. Don't give up on a co-owner.
Sometimes a very good friend becomes a mentor without either of you knowing it until it has happened!
(And for that, my friend, I am very grateful.)
Good friends, and good mentors, are priceless!

You say...
The O.P. is asking from the perspective of the breeder. But, it is very important for the other person to protect themselves as well.

And i respond....

protect the newbie from what exactly? Spending a little more money than they planned on a breeding or clearance? Having to give up a puppy when they have been sold a quality bitch? I'm sorry but that doesn't even rate when you consider all the thing a seasoned breeder has had to endure to produce a decent line of dogs. Not to mention the mentoring they have given you.

The Newbie expects a great dog that will pass all it's clearances and be next to perfect. If it doesn't they bad mouth the dog to anyone who will listen.

It's the seasoned breeder that needs to be the most careful who they choose to to deal with.

You say.....
Often breeders will want to co-own with others as it can be a great advantage to grow a breeding program that way, and can simply be a profit makeer. They will say they are easy to work with and are hands-off but then will try to pressure you into doing what they want. Keep in mind that this is often a more established breeder trying to take advantage of someone who doesn't know any better. I see this scenario all the time.

I respond.......
1) grow a breeding program on for a profit maker ????? Seriously, it's not that much money!!!! It's so much easier to sell a puppy as a pet.

The major reason a reputable breeder will sell a dog to another breeder is because they can't keep every dog. It's hard to let good puppies go as pets. And the breeder can continue their line with the puppy they get back from their co-owner.

2) an established breeder takes advantage of someone who doesn't know any better????
It's not taking advantage if the other person doesn't have the experience. They obviously came to this breeder because they liked their dogs and breeding program. Why would they not want the experience and advice of that person? If not then wait until you have fulfilled your agreement and go do your own thing if you know so much better.

You say.....
Often breeders will want to co-own with others as it can be a great advantage to grow a breeding program that way, and can simply be a profit makeer. They will say they are easy to work with and are hands-off but then will try to pressure you into doing what they want. Keep in mind that this is often a more established breeder trying to take advantage of someone who doesn't know any better. I see this scenario all the time.

I respond.......
1) grow a breeding program on for a profit maker ????? Seriously, it's not that much money!!!! It's so much easier to sell a puppy as a pet.

The major reason a reputable breeder will sell a dog to another breeder is because they can't keep every dog. It's hard to let good puppies go as pets. And the breeder can continue their line with the puppy they get back from their co-owner.

2) an established breeder takes advantage of someone who doesn't know any better????
It's not taking advantage if the other person doesn't have the experience. They obviously came to this breeder because they liked their dogs and breeding program. Why would they not want the experience and advice of that person? Aren't they there to learn? If not then wait until you have fulfilled your agreement and go do your own thing if you know so much better.

Every pup out on a co-own can return 2 to 3 times its value as a pet, or more. Often, the breeder isn't even looking to get a keeper back because the bitch on co-own often isn't even a decent one to begin with. Getting 3 grand for a pup instead of 1 grand as a pet is a pretty good investment in my mind.

Also, there is a giant difference between good mentoring and bossing someone around without teaching. In fact, I suspect this is one of the situations that turn many new people off.

I did not intend to make it sound like it is like this every time. Not even close. There are lots of great mentors out there. But if you haven't seen what I am referring to, you haven't been around, are in denial, or are one of the guilty parties. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Being hurt in a co-ownership can go in either direction.

AKC hates co-ownerships..
Beware of Newbies....1 or 2% will work out
The rest will stab you in the back...ask any oldtimer!!

Hm-m-m. I personaly know of 4 "old timers" who took advantage of newbies blinded by the idea that such well-known folks were willing to co-own with them. The newbies ended up paying for everything, the so-called mentors took the pups and sold them, and the newbies ended up with nothing but heartache. Some people have a knack for finding trusting newbies with $$$$ and taking advantage of them.
Always put everything in writing before you become co-owner and don't wimp out because Famous Breeder So and So wants to take advantage of your inexperience.

I think any "newbie" that is seriously considering a co-ownership needs to do THEIR homework. If the "famous breeder" is offering a deal that seems too good to be true - it probably is. I haven't been "in dogs" all that long, but long enough to know that there is a sucker born every minute and some "famous breeder" will take advantage of a newbie's inexperience and checkbook!!!

Why do you blame the old timer? Did you put your agreement on paper?????

Don't blame someone else because you were blinded by wanting to get a great dog and didn't write a contract. Or wrote a poor one, or were intimidated. Be nice about it and ask for an agreement on paper. Draft one up yourself if they won't. But typically the seller of the dog drafts the contract.

ONE MORE TIME NEWBIES......
Put it on paper (regardless of the other persons level of experience) and only sign a contract that you will live up to. Modify it "together" if you have to before you sign it.
When it comes time to do your part, do it! Don't cheat (have one puppy missing when the breeder comes to get their puppy) don't lie (I am going to show this dog you sell me and you don't show it but twice in 3 years and it wins both times) or omit details (like 3 pups died while I was asleep in bed).

Live up to your end of the contract. It's because "you don't live up to your agreement" and you pull this crap that newbies get such a bad wrap and it's so hard for you to get a good dog.

And if you can't afford it and are going to complain because your breeder sells the dog they get from your litter, get out of dogs because experienced or not it costs a small fortune to do this dog thing and everyone has to pay their dues. Oh and when the breeder sells that pup...did you ever think that money goes to feed their dogs at home? Enter another show or pay their vet?

I did not intend to place blame on established breeders. There are people in all walks of life that will take advantage of the uninformed. That simple. I'm sorry that you have had such bad experiences. If a "newbie" does not understand the stipulations of the contract, and doesn't ask, they are to blame. A "newbie" can certainly intentionally screw over their co-owner too. Not all of us are bad apples however!

I have had a few good co-ownerships BUT I also had a very bad one. I learned that having a written contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. Once the purchaser takes the dog home they have possession of him/her and there is nothing you can do. The person that purchased my puppy was a police detective, I surely felt he would be trustworthy. Lesson learned the hard way.

SO TRUE!!
They want a piece of what you have and will sign or say anything just get it, then realize later they don't like the terms and STAB YOU IN THE BACK!!
Oh and WATCH OUT when the puppy doesn't WIN in the ring!! They will bash you and ay what a piece of junk you passed onto them! LOL